Major damage :(

[sdowney717]

Thinking of what good thing there is about this bad thing, the damage as in the crushed glass absorbed the potentially worse damage if the hull had been stiffer there, maybe something else would have busted on the inside which might be hard to see. I am thinking like a crumple zone on a car, it yielded in the area and it protects the rest of the hull. If the damage had been hidden like a cracked hull or broke tabbing on the inside you might not have noticed till a long time later and you would always wonder what happened.

Other than that, could there have been a layup void in the glass. Hard to imagine solid glass like 6 inches thick crushing that much, Just how thick is it in that spot? An inch?, a half inch? less? more?

Are those keels solid glass or hollow on the inside? Like a box.

 

[DarrenCharles]

I know little about boats compared to the relative knowledge on this forum. But I do know a fair amount about engineering being a licensed professional engineer. I have always thought it to be risky to support a relatively heavy boat in the manner shown in this photo. In order to distribute the load over the entire length of the cribbing, the cribbing contact area would need to be exactly parallel to the boat bottom. In practice, that can be difficult to do. If you are off a little, or more than a little, crushing could result as shown in the photo.
Someone mentioned that wood would crush before the hull. This is not necessarily the case depending upon the wood species and the hull strength.
I suggest using a sacrificial scrap piece of 2" thick high density rigid insulation (extruded polystyrene) placed between the cribbing and the hull as a simple solution that would help minimize the point load.

 

[SoWhat]

Someone mentioned that wood would crush before the hull. This is not necessarily the case depending upon the wood species and the hull strength.
I suggest using a sacrificial scrap piece of 2" thick high density rigid insulation (extruded polystyrene) placed between the cribbing and the hull as a simple solution that would help minimize the point load.

My boatyard used a piece of 1X6 as a crush piece on top of the blocking. Down to thickness of cardboard or less by spring. I suspect it's more to preserve their blocking pieces but I suppose it spreads the load a bit. Nothing will cure a block set on an angle.

 

[LorMur]

LorMur

We are seriously contemplating purchasing a trawler although we are 74 years young. We are now able to do so financially to fulfill an item on our bucket list we have been wanting to do for the past number of years. We would be completely new to doing so.
I thought a little background from where I am coming from would be a good lead-in to my comment/question regarding the topic of the damaged keel.
I joined the RCN out of high school and went on to become a mechanical engineer on civy street and designed and installed equipment, managed plant construction and planned major projects. I realized from the start of my career I didn't have all the answers but it was always a good thing to ask questions and put forward ideas that may be a possible solution to a situation and to hell with the possibility of being ridiculed. This worked, as I was able to be more successful then being laughed at.
So... my question regarding keel blocking on land docking is this. Would a designed keel rest moulded to the shape of a boats keel with the centre of the blocking designed to take the loading at each certain point designated on the keel in conjunction with boats construction be viable?
I'm visualizing a slotted/grooved longitudinal member running parallel with the keel and the base sitting on the land surface having outriggers with adjustable feet for height and uneven ground, perhaps this could be made of aluminum stock to prevent rust. Three specific units (or more) for each boat and only for that boat and marked appropriately.
The material actually touching the keel could be a hard resin/plastic type of material shaped for the specific boat and location on the keel.
I believe cost would be very reasonable in relation to the cost of the boat and possible repair costs if damaged by 4x4 or 6x6 wood pieces piled to a required height.
Open for comment!

 

[Lou_tribal]

We are seriously contemplating purchasing a trawler although we are 74 years young. We are now able to do so financially to fulfill an item on our bucket list we have been wanting to do for the past number of years. We would be completely new to doing so.

I thought a little background from where I am coming from would be a good lead-in to my comment/question regarding the topic of the damaged keel.

I joined the RCN out of high school and went on to become a mechanical engineer on civy street and designed and installed equipment, managed plant construction and planned major projects. I realized from the start of my career I didn't have all the answers but it was always a good thing to ask questions and put forward ideas that may be a possible solution to a situation and to hell with the possibility of being ridiculed. This worked, as I was able to be more successful then being laughed at.

So... my question regarding keel blocking on land docking is this. Would a designed keel rest moulded to the shape of a boats keel with the centre of the blocking designed to take the loading at each certain point designated on the keel in conjunction with boats construction be viable?

I'm visualizing a slotted/grooved longitudinal member running parallel with the keel and the base sitting on the land surface having outriggers with adjustable feet for height and uneven ground, perhaps this could be made of aluminum stock to prevent rust. Three specific units (or more) for each boat and only for that boat and marked appropriately.

The material actually touching the keel could be a hard resin/plastic type of material shaped for the specific boat and location on the keel.

I believe cost would be very reasonable in relation to the cost of the boat and possible repair costs if damaged by 4x4 or 6x6 wood pieces piled to a required height.

Open for comment!

Add two wheels to your description and you get... a trailer.

L

 

[Lou_tribal]

Some updates:

Insurance surveyor went to see the damages Friday morning. Will not comment yet on this (will do later on when this story will be settled).
I should get a copy of his report and the estimates of the repair by sometime tomorrow.
Stay tuned.

L

 

[lipets]

They are moving as fast as glue on this resolution, the yard should be happy you're not a lawyer. Punitive damages etc



Hope it gets resolved

 

[Woodland Hills]

We are seriously contemplating purchasing a trawler although we are 74 years young. We are now able to do so financially to fulfill an item on our bucket list we have been wanting to do for the past number of years. We would be completely new to doing so.
I thought a little background from where I am coming from would be a good lead-in to my comment/question regarding the topic of the damaged keel.
I joined the RCN out of high school and went on to become a mechanical engineer on civy street and designed and installed equipment, managed plant construction and planned major projects. I realized from the start of my career I didn't have all the answers but it was always a good thing to ask questions and put forward ideas that may be a possible solution to a situation and to hell with the possibility of being ridiculed. This worked, as I was able to be more successful then being laughed at.
So... my question regarding keel blocking on land docking is this. Would a designed keel rest moulded to the shape of a boats keel with the centre of the blocking designed to take the loading at each certain point designated on the keel in conjunction with boats construction be viable?
I'm visualizing a slotted/grooved longitudinal member running parallel with the keel and the base sitting on the land surface having outriggers with adjustable feet for height and uneven ground, perhaps this could be made of aluminum stock to prevent rust. Three specific units (or more) for each boat and only for that boat and marked appropriately.
The material actually touching the keel could be a hard resin/plastic type of material shaped for the specific boat and location on the keel.
I believe cost would be very reasonable in relation to the cost of the boat and possible repair costs if damaged by 4x4 or 6x6 wood pieces piled to a required height.
Open for comment!

Where do you keep these contraptions when you aren’t hauled out? My keel is approximately 45’ long! Wouldn’t it be simpler to just use a competent yard to do the haul? And for the boat owner to know how to correctly block his own boat to ensure that the yard did a good job.....

 

[LorMur]

I would store the "contraptions" at my yard in a container with my boats name on it and locked. The container would then be stored by the yard. As the boats owner I would ensure the "contraptions " are placed at the appropriate keel location by the competent yard personnel when dry-docked. If they did not place according to my directions I would then not consider the yard competent and take appropriate steps.
The "contraptions" container would also be labelled as containing " Keel Supports"
and the boats name.

 

[twistedtree]

I would store the "contraptions" at my yard in a container with my boats name on it and locked. The container would then be stored by the yard. As the boats owner I would ensure the "contraptions " are placed at the appropriate keel location by the competent yard personnel when dry-docked. If they did not place according to my directions I would then not consider the yard competent and take appropriate steps.
The "contraptions" container would also be labelled as containing " Keel Supports"
and the boats name.

Good luck with that. The yards I know would laugh at you and tell you to pound sand. Most yards know what they are doing, and know considerably more than most owners. But shirt happens as Lou has shown. All it takes is an in experienced worker and a supervisor who looks away at the wrong time.

The proof here will be in the resolution, and like Lou, I’d like to believe the yard will handle it responsibly. But like BandB, I’ve encountered too many dick heads to expect it. When push comes to shove, most people suck.

 

[LorMur]

Good luck with that. The yards I know would laugh at you and tell you to pound sand. Most yards know what they are doing, and know considerably more than most owners. But shirt happens as Lou has shown. All it takes is an in experienced worker and a supervisor who looks away at the wrong time.

The proof here will be in the resolution, and like Lou, I’d like to believe the yard will handle it responsibly. But like BandB, I’ve encountered too many dick heads to expect it. When push comes to shove, most people suck.

You are certainly more experienced with boat yards then I am.

Perhaps offering a better system providing more efficiency would be well received by most yards. It may be like people changing their summer tires to winter tires at their respective tire place.....the summer tires are stored by the business for a small fee and labelled. If you are from the south you probably don't know about this winter practice. If you don't want to pay the fee for storage take the tires home and bring them back at such time you need to change them back.
You could do this with the keel supports if you so choose.

 

[kthoennes]

Good luck with that. The yards I know would laugh at you and tell you to pound sand... QUOTE]

Well, a good number of the larger sailboats in our marina (400 slips) have custom cradles made and stored in the boatyard and the marina drags them out and uses them each fall. Although I think you're generally right for power, I don't think any of the power boaters have custom blocks or cradles in our marina. Custom winter covers but not blocks or stands. I've been watching this lengthy discussion for a while now and from the beginning I was surprised at the blocking. Our boat is 37 nominal, 42 loa, about 14 tons, and our marina uses three blocking points along the keel and six jackstands. I'm no boat engineer and I don't play one on TV, but that blocking seemed awfully skimpy to me.

 

[psneeld]

Hundreds of thousands of boats are blocked successfully every year.


It's not the very simple procedure of blocking a boat that is a problem for 99% of the boats..... it is the care taken to do it well.


No need to complicate things past where good yards do a good job....yes many yards need to improve, but again the basic procedure is sound.

 

[Wayfarer]

Well, a good number of the larger sailboats in our marina (400 slips) have custom cradles made and stored in the boatyard and the marina drags them out and uses them each fall.

I was going to say the same thing. I don't see nearly as many around here as I used to, but there were tons of those things around when I were a lad. Big ugly wooden things with stinky carpet stapled to the pads. The cradle idea does make sense if you always plan to be hauled at the same place, but if you're on the move it might be more trouble than it's worth.

 

[LorMur]

Hundreds of thousands of boats are blocked successfully every year.


It's not the very simple procedure of blocking a boat that is a problem for 99% of the boats..... it is the care taken to do it well.


No need to complicate things past where good yards do a good job....yes many yards need to improve, but again the basic procedure is sound.

If there is no need to replace a basic sound procedure using wooden blocks as the means of blocking a boat, then developing a better way seems to garner the consensus of opinion.... "If it ain't broke don't fix it".

For me, something doesn't sit right (no pun intended) owning a piece of valuable equipment worth thousands of dollars sitting on pieces of wood for many months.
It brings to mind the automobile wheel progress from wooden spokes to metal wheels although spokes were doing a good job and the procedure of installing was sound.

My personal observation and opinion.

 

[BandB]

Tens of thousands of boats are set on racks in various types of buildings and yards. They have the same issues of things being done right and things done wrong. I do believe something more along the lines of a cradle would be nice for most boats. However, properly blocked boats are doing very well. So, other ideas and suggestions, while nice, aren't needed to avoid what happened to the OP.

 

[Simi 60]

Tens of thousands of boats are set on racks in various types of buildings and yards. They have the same issues of things being done right and things done wrong. I do believe something more along the lines of a cradle would be nice for most boats. However, properly blocked boats are doing very well. So, other ideas and suggestions, while nice, aren't needed to avoid what happened to the OP.

Cradles are nice, until you need to do a bottom job and then you find large sections of boat are inaccessible or at least that's the issue I had with my cradle on a one design keelboat.

We have no dramas with blocking our current vessel but then we come out in the 300tonne yard vs the 75 tonne yard.
We are about the smallest boat in the yard when we come up but they dont have small boat blocking, only big boat blocking and everything is shifted by forklift.

Should also note, that when we come out the travel lift has big signs saying basically, zero care zero responsible. Its the owners responsibility to choose strap and blocking positions.
Obviously the yard will advise or suggest, but its up to me to know bulkhead and hardspot positions.

Once chosen and successfully lifted, the spots are marked and, I take a photo and email it to myself, saved forever and able to be emailed to whoever I come out with next time for reference.

 

[AZ2Loop]

Very sorry to see this, Lou. It amazes me that a yard would skimp on blocking. Think of the price of the boats they are moving and of the yard's investment in equipment, real estate, personnel, etc. Now imagine that same yard, after all of that investment, being hesitant to add extra blocking -- cheap, readily available, wood blocks of all sizes and shapes. That is where they skimp and save money and time? Really? Just amazing! It is truly remarkable they would make that decision and take that risk.

As I read through this thread from the beginning I assumed I MUST have been reading it incorrectly when it seemed like this was the only blocking point on the entire keel. So I read it again. I cannot believe they set your boat up like that!

As yet another point of reference/evidence for you, Lou, my boat is on the hard now. It has 5 sets of blocking under the keel and 8 adjustable stands (4 on each side) along the length of the boat. Does my yard know what they are doing? I don't know if they do or not, but I like the 5 sets of blocking more than ever after seeing this thread.

Good luck going forward. I am sure you will get it fixed better than new, but sorry you have to deal with it.

 

[psneeld]

The number of blocking points is only as good as the crew estimating the weight on each set as they lower the boat.

 

[Woodland Hills]

I would store the "contraptions" at my yard in a container with my boats name on it and locked. The container would then be stored by the yard. As the boats owner I would ensure the "contraptions " are placed at the appropriate keel location by the competent yard personnel when dry-docked. If they did not place according to my directions I would then not consider the yard competent and take appropriate steps.
The "contraptions" container would also be labelled as containing " Keel Supports"
and the boats name.

If you store your cradles at the yard, that’s another monthly bill for the container. You also have just given up the option for shopping for the best price for any work that requires a haulout. Finally, if you plan on traveling with your boat, you’ll be hauling without the fancy cradles anyway, if you ever have issues when away from home port.

 

[danderer]

..usually dragged around the yard on greased railroad ties. Ah the pre-travelift days.

..but there were tons of those things around when I were a lad. Big ugly wooden things with stinky carpet stapled to the pads.

 

[LorMur]

If you store your cradles at the yard, that’s another monthly bill for the container. You also have just given up the option for shopping for the best price for any work that requires a haulout. Finally, if you plan on traveling with your boat, you’ll be hauling without the fancy cradles anyway, if you ever have issues when away from home port.

Great feed-back on this!

Clarification:

1. I don't envision what you call cradles. My design would be keel supports approx. 12" long on the keel, shaped to that keel location. Three to six supports as required of aluminum construction.

2. If you're hauling out, do you not have a vehicle at the location? The vehicle could bring the supports.

3. Choosing a yard for work? Bring the supports to the yard?

4. Cost to store supports? From our perspective with our present endeavour in considering a boat purchase, this cost would be negligible.

5. OP have indicated the yards are not responsible for land placement and other comments have stated to let the experts at the yard place the boat?
I'm getting educated as we search. Who is responsible?

In regard to my last point, is this not the crux of this discussion??

 

[dhays]

I would store the "contraptions" at my yard in a container with my boats name on it and locked. The container would then be stored by the yard. As the boats owner I would ensure the "contraptions " are placed at the appropriate keel location by the competent yard personnel when dry-docked. If they did not place according to my directions I would then not consider the yard competent and take appropriate steps.
The "contraptions" container would also be labelled as containing " Keel Supports"
and the boats name.

Your idea certainly has merit. If you had the ability to store the boat on your own property, this would be a great solution. For example if you had river/canal/sea/lakefront property and the ability to hire a barge crane to lift the boat from the water to your cradle, that would be great.



Most yards however have limited space. OTOH, if they had the room and you were willing to pay for the yard storage of the container year round in addition to the yard storage of the boat during the winter, it would be great. Of course, you may also have issues with being able to find a yard that is willing to accept the liability of using your supplied cradle.


Just because an idea is innovative doesn't make it a bad idea.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Update:
The insurance surveyor just replied to me that his inspection report remains between the insurer and himself and will not be disclosed to me. This is becoming more and more interesting.


L

 

[SoWhat]

Update:
The insurance surveyor just replied to me that his inspection report remains between the insurer and himself and will not be disclosed to me. This is becoming more and more interesting.

Next comes the lowball offer as complete settlement for all damages to include seen and unforeseen, etc, etc

Get a quote from a local fiberglass guy so at least you know if the settlement offer will be close to what it will cost you to repair.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Next comes the lowball offer as complete settlement for all damages to include seen and unforeseen, etc, etc



Get a quote from a local fiberglass guy so at least you know if the settlement offer will be close to what it will cost you to repair.

This is exactly my next step.

L

 

[Woodland Hills]

Great feed-back on this!

Clarification:

1. I don't envision what you call cradles. My design would be keel supports approx. 12" long on the keel, shaped to that keel location. Three to six supports as required of aluminum construction.

2. If you're hauling out, do you not have a vehicle at the location? The vehicle could bring the supports.

3. Choosing a yard for work? Bring the supports to the yard?

4. Cost to store supports? From our perspective with our present endeavour in considering a boat purchase, this cost would be negligible.

5. OP have indicated the yards are not responsible for land placement and other comments have stated to let the experts at the yard place the boat?
I'm getting educated as we search. Who is responsible?

In regard to my last point, is this not the crux of this discussion??

We live aboard and the only vehicle we have is the Vespa on the upper deck. If you are 600 to 800 miles from home port and you need to be hauled to fix something, do you fly back to the supports, rent a car and drive back? Or do you just haul using blocks and stands? I’m not even talking about an emergency where you are taking on water......

Now if you don’t plan to be much more than a few days from home port, or if you have a place to store the braces onboard then give it try and see if you think it’s worth it. In any case, I would suggest avoiding storing your stuff at a boatyard in favor of an off-site storage room. If the yard charges you for storage, then you have another annoying monthly bill. If they keep your stuff as a courtesy, then you will be paying them anyway.......... one way or another.

As to who ultimately has responsibility for a haul, let’s wait and see what happens in the real world. Just stay tuned!

 

[psneeld]

Blocks used correctly work fine, wood is better than metal as it does give a little. Except for a custom cradle, it's sounds a lot like solving a problem that doesn't exist. Poor handling of the lifting and the support issues are secondary.


Most yards catering to recreational boats have responsibility, but often ask about sling placement if not familiar with your boat.

 

[BruceK]

The Surveyor reports to the insurer, it`s for them to decide to release the report to you, I really don`t think he could release it.
Insurance here requires "utmost good faith" of both insured and insurer. There too I hope.
Supporting a boat out of water requires expertise. Boats vary,imo a Yard needs to assess what is required for each boat,and if unsure find out or not do it. It`s a reason Yards don`t like handling wooden boats, as per another current thread.

 

[Lou_tribal]

The Surveyor reports to the insurer, it`s for them to decide to release the report to you, I really don`t think he could release it.
Insurance here requires "utmost good faith" of both insured and insurer. There too I hope.
Supporting a boat out of water requires expertise. Boats vary,imo a Yard needs to assess what is required for each boat,and if unsure find out or not do it. It`s a reason Yards don`t like handling wooden boats, as per another current thread.

Indeed, I learned that the insurance surveyor report belongs to insurer (I have a very very good advisor who is kind enough and have the infinite patience to teach me). Let see what is coming out from all this...

L