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Old 02-13-2019, 04:10 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by BDofMSP View Post
Side comment but I have to take exception with this repeated claim that one should RUN from a low hour engine. Lots of us live in Northern climates (including Riverguy at some point). We have 4 months where you have a good shot at boating, particularly if you work for a living and can only get out on weekends. 500 hours over 20 years of 4 month seasons is plenty of time to get up to operating temperature every time, I can assure you. If I cruise a few hours out to my favorite island, anchor for the weekend and dinghy around, and cruise back I don't put on a lot of hours. But that certainly doesn't mean that I don't check and maintain the engine.

Moreover, these boats are winterized every year, which for anyone who has their engines maintained professionally always includes an oil change, regardless of hours. My oil is clean as new every season but it gets change anyway. Also for many of us Northerners, the usage is in fresh water which is far less corrosive in "marine hours" regardless of engine hours.

Especially as someone who has a super well maintained, low hour boat on the market right now, I find these claims to "run away" as silly.
BD
No argument to your point. I agree, but for every one of your well maintained northern boats, there are plenty of low hour boats that the owner (or Admiral) had a bad experience with or lost interest in which become the neglected stepchild. That's all I'm saying. Wasn't trying to offend low hour boats. As you point out, as did I at the end of my original post, maintenance is key, regardless of brand.
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Old 02-13-2019, 04:12 PM   #62
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Riverguy- The 6BTA does not have cylinder liners. Parent bore like the 3116 and 3126.

6CTA has wet liners.

6LY has dry liners. 6LY2 has no liners with hardened bores.
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Old 02-13-2019, 04:34 PM   #63
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Well, I'm sure glad we were able to clear that up !!
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Old 02-13-2019, 04:37 PM   #64
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Side comment but I have to take exception with this repeated claim that one should RUN from a low hour engine...I find these claims to "run away" as silly.
BD
Yes, the idea that one should just 'run away' is silly.

It's pretty much exactly as I said it several posts ago. Five of my boats over the years were northern climate boats and three are southern climate boats.



Northern climate boats will understandably have less hours. All I said was that if there are less than about 100 hours per year, you need to know why before you buy. Obviously the best reason for low hours on a marine diesel is the 60% of the time they spend on the hard.


How that got turned into 'RUN AWAY' is a mystery...
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Old 02-13-2019, 05:55 PM   #65
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I believe that Ski is correct as usual. But c'mon guys. This thread has lots of conflicting info with no backup other than references to others who could be just as wrong. Such is the nature of internet forums though.

My head is still spinning about the French blocks: 3116 or 3126, which years are affected and can you tell by the serial numbers, wow


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Old 02-13-2019, 06:51 PM   #66
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So...only Yanmar?

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Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
The 6BTA (e.g., 5.9) is not sleeved; the 6CTA (8.3) is.

-Chris
Thanks...I stand corrected. So we agree that the Yanmar 6LYA is sleeved, while the Cats and the Cummins are Parent Bore blocks.


Question: Do we also agree you agree that this means only the Yanmar can be re-sleeved without removing the engine from the boat?


That is (in my mind) the only thing that really matters here. Labor costs to remove and replace an engine provide a powerful incentive to choose a 'preferred' engine that can be rebuilt in-place.
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Old 02-13-2019, 07:03 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
Riverguy- The 6BTA does not have cylinder liners. Parent bore like the 3116 and 3126.

6CTA has wet liners.

6LY has dry liners. 6LY2 has no liners with hardened bores.

Thanks Ski,


So, this means that (of the three engines available in a Mainship 390) only the 6LYA can be re-sleeved without removing the engine from the boat...is that right?
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Old 02-13-2019, 07:09 PM   #68
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...My head is still spinning about the French blocks: 3116 or 3126, which years are affected and can you tell by the serial numbers, wow
David
Be careful when spinning your head whilst simultaneously banging it against a brick wall. Your epithelium will be abraded down to nothing, and your cranium will need a new cylinder liner very quickly if you allow this to continue... ;-)
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:06 PM   #69
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Not sure why we are making such a big deal about replaceable cylinder liners or not. I will bet less than 1 in a 100 marine engines is ever a candidate for new liners, overboring with sleaves, a new block or whatever. Marine engines die from many other causes first.


The only engines that seem to routinely get cylinder kits installed- pistons and cylinders are DDs. And that is because it is relatively cheap and easy to do and the turbo engines in sportfishermen often get run into the ground. Also maybe the DDs are less likely to die from other causes.



Price a set of pistons, rings and cylinders for the Yanmar 6LY vs a kit for the 6-71 TIB and you will see why it is often done with the DDs but not the Yanmars.



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Old 02-14-2019, 06:17 AM   #70
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The folks with wet liners need to remember to only use antifreeze with SCA , to keep the cylinder walls intact.
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Old 02-14-2019, 07:40 AM   #71
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The folks with wet liners need to remember to only use antifreeze with SCA , to keep the cylinder walls intact.

Amen...and change it regularly. Even if you don't have wet liners, there may be other reasons to use it. For example, Yanmar uses an aluminum exhaust manifold, which is a very sensible way to save weight but requires modern antifreeze. Wet liners or not, I think all marine engines built in the past 25 years or so need to use manufacturer recommeded coolant.
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Old 02-14-2019, 08:54 AM   #72
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Not sure why we are making such a big deal about replaceable cylinder liners or not. I will bet less than 1 in a 100 marine engines is ever a candidate for new liners, overboring with sleaves, a new block or whatever. Marine engines die from many other causes first.


The only engines that seem to routinely get cylinder kits installed- pistons and cylinders are DDs. And that is because it is relatively cheap and easy to do and the turbo engines in sportfishermen often get run into the ground. Also maybe the DDs are less likely to die from other causes.



Price a set of pistons, rings and cylinders for the Yanmar 6LY vs a kit for the 6-71 TIB and you will see why it is often done with the DDs but not the Yanmars.



David

"I will bet less than 1 in a 100 marine engines is ever a candidate for new liners, overboring with sleaves, a new block or whatever."
Not the case in my experience - but everyone's mileage will vary.
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Old 02-15-2019, 09:33 AM   #73
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2) Or it may have something to do with vertical integration...and the fact that the major manufacturers of semi-trucks and heavy construction machinery (like Caterpillar) are also their own engine manufacturers.
For the record: Caterpillar does not produce on-highway diesel engines.

Carry on,

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Old 03-14-2019, 09:47 AM   #74
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MS350/390 pre-purchase exhaust inspection

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As nice as it sounds, tearing engines down for a pre purchase survey is not common. I wouldn't allow an unknown wrencher to do anything on my vessel during a survey except to take oil samples - and often these are done wrong.

A good engine guy (and many surveyors) can spot a haywire exhaust riser layout in a second while noting other mechanical visuals. Coupled with sea trial and a review of maintenance records that is largely the mechanical inspection.

Any problems found can then become a further discussion.
Re: "As nice as it sounds, tearing engines down for a pre purchase survey is not common."

I couldn't disagree more. For a marine diesel application, disconnecting the wet exhaust elbow from the turbocharger to inspect the exhaust side for water intrusion is not 'tearing down' the engine. Rather, this is a normal and required periodic inspection task that only takes 15-20 minutes (after you've done it a few times). Both of the saltwater turbo-diesel-powered boats I purchased in the last five years (with engine surveys) had the wet-elbow disconnected and the inside of the turbo housing photographed before I accepted the vessels. On both my boats, I do this inspection at least annually (1x Yanmar 6LYA and 2x Cummins 6BTA).

Re: "A good engine guy (and many surveyors) can spot a haywire exhaust riser layout in a second while noting other mechanical visuals."

A good engine guy will tell you it is not possible to look at an exhaust system from the outside to tell whether water has gotten into the turbo, until it's too late. By the time you can see any evidence of damage from outside, the turbo (and maybe the aft-most exhaust valves) will be toast.

With the Mainship 350/390's this is an especially critical inspection. One of the biggest 'known issues' with these boats is their history of taking water up the exhaust and flooding the turbo and ruining an engine. Our 2003 MS390 has a 2007 engine for exactly this reason, and as of 2007, it also has the latest (final) redesigned exhaust system -- a new exhaust riser and check-valve setup.

Having this upgrade is one of the biggest reasons we chose this particular boat in 2014.

Even with the redesigned exhaust system, there is absolutely no way to know if there has been salt-water in the turbo without doing this inspection. This is especially critical after a big storm, if the boat was in a less-than-fully-protected marina.

The other (equally important) reason for doing this inspection is to monitor the condition of the wet elbow itself. These elbows (even the stainless steel one on our 390) are subject to corrosion, and once they start leaking, you will start getting salt-water into the turbo. This is yet another condition that cannot be seen from the outside until it is too late.

I would never buy any turbocharged marine-diesel powered boat without seeing the inside of the turbo. If the seller objected, I would walk away. In my case, neither seller objected -- indeed they allowed (and expected) the inspection, although I had to pay for new exhaust gaskets).
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:50 AM   #75
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For the record: Caterpillar does not produce on-highway diesel engines.

Carry on,

Sidney

Thanks Sidney. So whose engines are in their on-highway trucks?

https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/n...ay-trucks.html


CAT uses (or use to use, through 2016) Navistar engines in their on-highway trucks. They called them "Cat CT13", but these engines were made by Navistar.
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Old 03-14-2019, 11:40 AM   #76
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How that got turned into 'RUN AWAY' is a mystery...
Sorry Riverguy. I misattributed that. Rendern was the one that said RUN. I apologize.

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Old 03-14-2019, 11:54 AM   #77
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"Moreover, these boats are winterized every year, which for anyone who has their engines maintained professionally always includes an oil change, regardless of hours. My oil is clean as new every season but it gets change anyway."

Da Book, the big maint manual (not the owners handbook) for any brand engine usually specifies much more than just an oil change to place an engine out of service for months.

Perhaps the better way to compare high reving engines with slower thumpers is to compare how many miles the piston travels to push you an hour at cruise speed.
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Old 03-14-2019, 12:43 PM   #78
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RiverGuy is correct about the importance of checking the exhaust side of the turbo for signs of salt water leakage from the exhaust. My exhaust looked "new" from the outside, but was starting to fail (corrode through) on the inside. In my case, this only became apparent when my exhaust hose alarm sounded and I took the elbow off and had it "cleaned" at a rad shop. I got lucky, as I caught this issue early and suffered no visible turbo damage.
I had 2 different boats (with the same engine) mechanically surveyed (2 different mechanics) and neither mechanic (nor regular surveyor - different surveyors as well) commented on the "design problem" inherent in the factory exhaust system (doomed to fail as Tony Athens on Seaboard Marine says).
If I were to be in the market again for a boat with a turbo diesel, I would definitely insist on an exhaust side inspection. With many exhaust setups big risk if you don't!

Regards,
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Old 03-14-2019, 02:03 PM   #79
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For cruising trawler one of our spec requirements was NA diesels only, period .
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Old 03-14-2019, 02:35 PM   #80
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I think it is a matter of risk management whether you remove the exhaust elbow and look inside the turbo for corrosion or not as part of a pre-purchase survey.


On my Mainship Pilot 34 which came from the factory with 8" of water line clearance and a non self draining injection elbow, I now know to definitely do it before purchasing. But after I added 8" of riser and pointed the injection elbow down to be self draining, I don't think I would do it every year or even before purchase. It is a very safe exhaust system now.


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