Low visibility

[greatpapabear]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Regardless of the rules, if in doubt, why not just turn on the lights and sound the horn just for your own safety?

+1

[RickB]

Originally Posted by markpierce

The captain of the cruise ship we were on declined to leave Stephens Passage to enter Holkham Bay ...

Almost certainly he did not "decline" - he was prohibited by the company Safety Management System to enter that area with less than a certain visibility current and forecast.

Very little is left to the discretion of the master in operational matters such as that.

[greatpapabear]

Originally Posted by greatpapabear

A thought - I'll talk with the MCA this morning (The UK Coastguard and "COLREGS police") and check if they use the same definition. Could you do the same with the NOAA and we'll compare results.

Best - GPB

MCA confirms fog is <1,000m.

GPB

[psneeld]

After reading several legal cases related to "resticted vis" collisions...no mention of ANY distance caught my attention. They spent a lot of arguing the time/distance it would take to come to a stop...so it probably doesn't matter what the actual number is because when/if it goes to court...the big thing is "was vis reduced at all" and if so...what did you do to help prevent the collision.

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by greatpapabear

MCA confirms fog is <1,000m.

Don't believe ships wouldn't show lights and blast horns long before visibility was reduced to a mere kilometer. For me, I'll show lights and sound horn whenever visibility is limited to their ranges.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by markpierce

Don't believe ships wouldn't show lights and blast horns long before visibility was reduced to a mere kilometer. For me, I'll show lights and sound horn whenever visibility is limited to their ranges.

While the 1000m might be a tech number in calling weather "fog" ...I doubt it has any bearing when you should think in terms of restriced visibility when boating.

The rules do infer "any" reduction in visibility...so I guess it does fall to a judgement call. (otherwise I would think a "specific" number would be a lot easier to find).

[greatpapabear]

Originally Posted by psneeld

While the 1000m might be a tech number in calling weather "fog" ...I doubt it has any bearing when you should think in terms of restriced visibility when boating.

The rules do infer "any" reduction in visibility...so I guess it does fall to a judgement call. (otherwise I would think a "specific" number would be a lot easier to find).

I agree. I wandered off into the def of fog in itself since it was a def that I felt it might have been on interest to see where mist became fog.

However, taking the COLREGS restricted visibility def of "any condition in which visibility is restricted by fog, mist, falling snow, heavy rainstorms, sandstorms or any other similar causes" and then Rule 19 "This Rule applies to vessels not in sight of one another when navigating in or near an area of restricted visibility" makes collision avoidance action interesting, since the rules change with 19d and 19e, namely,

(d) A vessel which detects by radar alone the presence of another vessel shall determine if a closequarters situation is developing and/or risk of collision exists. If so, she shall take avoiding action in ample time, provided that when such action consists of an alteration of course, so far as possible the following shall be avoided:
(i) an alteration of course to port for a vessel forward of the beam, other than for a vessel being overtaken;
(ii) an alteration of course towards a vessel abeam or abaft the beam.
(e) Except where it has been determined that a risk of collision does not exist, every vessel which hears apparently forward of her beam the fog signal of another vessel, or which cannot avoid a close-quarters situation with another vessel forward of her beam, shall reduce her speed to the
minimum at which she can be kept on her course. She shall if necessary take all her way off and in any event navigate with extreme caution until danger of collision is over.

It's the change in avoidance actions in 19b that's always been inteetsing to me - diagram attached which I used in my article to Motor Boat and Yachting.

Have a good day.

[Per]

thats is not terrible bad viz.
we sometimes arrive and leave long beach in the fog, i mean serious fog with perhaps 20 ft viz, where you navigate strictly by instruments (gps and radar) and i never go faster than idle.
when in these conditions, i have never heard anyone use their horns..

[psneeld]

funny...New York Harbor is downright scary with all the whistle signals going off!!!

[greatpapabear]

Originally Posted by Per

thats is not terrible bad viz.
we sometimes arrive and leave long beach in the fog, i mean serious fog with perhaps 20 ft viz, where you navigate strictly by instruments (gps and radar) and i never go faster than idle.
when in these conditions, i have never heard anyone use their horns..

There was a drwadful accident in 2011 where a passenger fast cat travelling at 38kts in thick, thick fog cut a French trawler in half, killing one of them. Thick fog and no horn signals are cited as contributory.

Wikipedia reports:

At approximately 0645 UTC on 28 March 2011 the Condor Vitesse was in collision with a Granville fishing boat, the 9.3m "Les Marquises", in the vicinity of the Minquiers reef south of Jersey while en route from St Malo in foggy conditions. Two of the French fishermen were rescued from the water by the ferry's safety boats. The skipper of Les Marquises, 42-year old Philippe Claude Lesaulnier, was rescued by another fishing boat "Joker" and transferred to Jersey's lifeboat, but died later the same day in Jersey's hospital. An inquest in Jersey revealed that Monsieur Lesaulnier died of crush injuries to the upper abdomen, and drowning. He leaves a wife and four children.

An investigation began.The French investigator, Renauld Gaudeul, procureur de la République de Coutances said that the speed of the ferry would be of key importance to the investigation. On 19 October 2011, the BEAmer released its report. In summary, "Condor Vitesse sailed from Saint-Malo in thick fog conditions; the fog horn had been inactivated very early and the visual lookout had not been strengthened. The speed had progressively reached 37 knots. In the wheelhouse almost continuous talks without any link with the watchkeeping, maintained an atmosphere not compatible with the necessary concentration to conduct a HSC in the fog. This behavior, as well as the visibility are the causal factors of the accident. When Condor Vitesse approached the Minquiers waters, both officers did not detect 2 vessel echoes ahead on starboard, the first was a ship that would be passing at a hundred of meters on starboard, the second was Les Marquises. The potter was fishing, with her radar on, without emitting any sound signals. A hand saw the HSC at the last moment but too late to alert the skipper. The collision cut the fishing vessel in two parts, while on board the HSC there was a leak in the starboard bow compartment. The aft part of the potter kept afloat for a time, allowing the two hands to stay on it until they have been rescued by the HSC crew."

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by Per

we sometimes arrive and leave long beach in the fog, i mean serious fog with perhaps 20 ft viz, where you navigate strictly by instruments (gps and radar) and i never go faster than idle.
when in these conditions, i have never heard anyone use their horns..

Going slow was good. Not using a horn/whistle was bad. Anyone there show their running lights in such conditions? (I doubt it.)

[Marin]

We use our horns in the fog. If it's daytime we do not use our nav lights for the simple fact that nobody would see them until they ran into us. That's why we're using the horns in the first place-- can't see anything.

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by Marin

We use our horns in the fog. If it's daytime we do not use our nav lights for the simple fact that nobody would see them until they ran into us. That's why we're using the horns in the first place-- can't see anything.

And for the same reason you don't turn on your automobile's headlights when it rains or it's foggy during daylight hours?

[markpierce]

Show lights!

[Marin]

You seem to be under the delusion that nav lights are bright. They aren't. The requirement is that they be visible x- distance away on a clear night. If you have actually seen nav lights on, even at night, you would know that at any distance at all they are just tiny sparks of colored light. To think nav lights actually light up anything like headlights or would even be visible to another boat in the daytime in a fog is fooling yourself.

[markpierce]

Marin, you scare me ... like some drivers in the Philippines who don't use their automobiles' headlights at night to "save" their batteries. (Oh heck. Navigational lights "can't be seen" so why bother with them.)

[Marin]

Originally Posted by markpierce

Show lights!

The only nav light in your photo is the tiny red one. The spreader lights and spotlight on your cabin top are not nav lights, they are not required, and more boats don't have them than do. And in a real fog (not that mild haze that was in that sailboat photo you posted) your spreader and spotlights wouldn't be seen very far away either. That's why God invented foghorns.

[markpierce]

I'll argue that every bit helps (let alone the Colregs). Also, there is no reason not to show lights, not significantly reducing one's own vision, which shouldn't be confused with navigational lights. The most important thing is to be noticed/seen.

[Marin]

Originally Posted by markpierce

I'll argue that every bit helps (let alone the Colregs). Also, there is no reason not to show lights which shouldn't be confused with navigational lights. The most important thing is to be noticed/seen.

You want to turn on your lights when nobody can see them that's fine with me. I prefer to save them for when they can be seen, particularly since I don't fancy dropping the mast just to change the bulbs that burned out because we had our lights on for no reason whatsoever.

[psneeld]

my boat had aqua signal series 25's on it...they are marginal at best...I just upgraded to series 41's which we have even on our little 26" assistance towing boats.

no pun intended but the difference is night and day...I swear they are 5 times brighter even though they are only 25 watt instead of the lower 10 watt bulbs.

the point is not so much for visibility as much as soon as the lights are recognized, the approaching vessel can make a ROR decision versus guessing if you are still just a white blob in the mist.