Loop versus passage

[Hippocampus]

Thanks guys. Have a FaceTime at 9am with a goal of possibly getting a Summer Kyle design. We spent time at Covey Island a few years back while on a motorcycle trip going around Nova Scotia. It was a delight and strongly suggest doing it if you’re a rider. The Covey Island group do great work and thought to have them build me a Westerman but decided to build an Outbound instead. Bluenose is beautiful as are their lobster boats.

 

[Joe Pica]

If you are serious about learning about the Great Loop and all of its constraints, questions, etc., you should join America's Great Loop Association, open a beer, and read the forums and other information there.

There is a wealth of information there that will be difficult to repeat here with individual questions. Also, the loop route is somewhat dynamic with fuel, storms, lock closings, etc. -- all of the latest information is also available on the AGLCA site.

Ray is spot on with the above comment. It will be of great benefit to you. It is a wealth of experience and a central repository for all things loop.

Joe
3 with Great Loops and most the rivers.etc.

 

[Hippocampus]

Thanks Joe
Yesterday physically saw a Summer Kyle up to Maine. Would be a great looper. Draft under 3’ and very low airdraft. Wife liked the outside appearance but didn’t like moving around the decks. She felt too insecure. She’s used to having a handrail on one side and a lifeline on the other with the ability to lean against the house. She also didn’t like the interior. She’s used to an island queen with multiple options behind the mast (center of motion) for sleeping when it gets bumpy. Tried to explain it isn’t a sea boat and we’re not going to be in a seaway the way we would use this boat. I didn’t like access to the mechanicals which would require a fair amount of boat yoga to do common chores.
The same day we has the opportunity to physically tour a N40 for sale which came from down south and was heading to Maine. We saw her in Gloucester MA due to the kindness of the owners. The bride loved her. All the comforts of home. An obviously solidly built boat. Even the tanks were GRP so no worries about leaks down the road. Although no standing head room an obvious absence of boat yoga to tend to the mechanicals. A place for everything and everything in its place. The fly bridge and haft of the thing would mean little skating while docking and she’d move like a grand old dame. Still more effect from current as there’s more in the water. The Summer Kyle cruises at 11k the Norhavn looks like a 7k boat. We counted on 180m days with the Outbound and 200m days weren’t that uncommon. The N40 is probably going to be 7k and that’s it. But to satisfy her desires the biggest drawback draw back is the depth of 5’2” and need for fins. Now she’s saying 7 k is just fine as long as she’s in a good seaboat.
At loggerheads. She grew up on a Hatt and a big Novi spending all her summers from the time school let out until it restarted exclusively on a boat until she went to college. She doesn’t want to go back to anything similar saying she doesn’t want to pound or tack a lot off course to get a decent ride. She prefers power to sail which is one of the key reasons we sold the Outbound. But now she likes all the stuff (hydronic heat, AC, solidity of a good build, SSB, fleet one, watermaker, easy ergonomics etc.) which comes with a bluewater sailboat. We don’t have the money for a new 475, or an Artnautica unless we sell the house and she refuses to do that. Now she’s saying she’d give up the nooks and crannies of the Bahamas or Chesapeake as well as the skinny water parts of the Eastern or Great Loop to get the solid build of a Norhavn. She wants an N40 with a fly bridge.more than a 43.
However we’re holding off on a decision. I want to put her on a KK39 and an American Tug. Very difficult to stay safe and actually get to crawl around. We’ve found out video tours are helpful but you really need to get on the boat itself to appreciate sight lines( she’s 4’10” I’m 6’) and experience the ergonomics. FaceTime or WhatsApp just doesn’t cut it. Just wish Covid would go away. Makes boat buying very difficult for a novice to cruising power boats like me to decide. I’m a bit worried about aluminum tanks in a used boat and would appreciate comments about this in the KK39 as well as the A41.
Thanks
Confused.

 

[CanadianDuckDreamer]

Hippocampus, are you familiar with the Diesel Ducks trawlers built by Seahorse Marine? Great boats for the loop and ocean passage, I have one in Lake Michigan that will soon go on sale. Let me send more details via message, cheers!

 

[sledge]

Hippo,
I can speak to the AT41. We’ve had ours for a few years and absolutely love it. For a 41, she has an unusually wide beam at nearly 16’ and this allows for full walk-around on both sides with generous foot space and safety rails all the way back. It has a 4’ 10” draft but where the N40 is full displacement, the AT is semi displacement. This means you’ll get a cruise speed of say 8-10 knots but can push as high as 16 kts in short bursts if you want it. It also means you don’t necessarily need stabilizers with the chines on an AT.
The ER is not standup but other than height, there is generous room on both sides of the engine. True many of these have aluminum tanks but the current ones are ten years old and no signs of any problems with them. Another unique aspect of the AT41 with such a beam is the exceptional amount of internal storage.
I agree video doesn’t give you the feel of the boat. It would certainly be best if you could get an actual tour of the AT, the KK, you might even consider a Nordic Tug. Perhaps Trawlerfest will go as scheduled in October, this could be an opportunity to get aboard different boats. Here’s the fest link:
https://www.passagemaker.com/trawlerfest

 

[Cartouche]

Note people seem to depend on reverse AC for heat how much of a headache is it to install heat as we have cruised areas where water temperature is low enough that’s not an option?

We are on Lake ontario in Canada when we launch in the spring April water temp is 33% Reverse air for heat works great

 

[Hippocampus]

Buddy boated with a sistership down Maine. We both had reverse air. I had a Webasto hydronic as well. When possible they spent time on our boat. They slept with clothes on.they were much happier with a dedicated heated boat. Think limitations are:
Inefficient-fuel to electricity-electricity to heat pump-heat pump to air. Think even radiant electric heat is more efficient. So you lose range and time at destination as well as expense.
More background noise. Generator and system. Things get worse as water gets colder until there’s no heating at all.
Not as even a heat as hydronic. Prefer hydronic to air, air to drip diesel, diesel to solid fuel. Have had Wesbasto, Espar, several different drip types and spent time with a solid fuel stove.
But you’re right all the vessels we’ve investigated have reverse air except those from PNW. Need to determine if it’s cheaper to retrofit dedicated heat than ship a boat. Need to see if the ducting for air can be used for heat. For instance if the forward stateroom on a n40 was heated given the layout and small size think that would suffice. Don’t know enough about this.

 

[mvweebles]

Buddy boated with a sistership down Maine. We both had reverse air. I had a Webasto hydronic as well. When possible they spent time on our boat. They slept with clothes on.they were much happier with a dedicated heated boat. Think limitations are:
Inefficient-fuel to electricity-electricity to heat pump-heat pump to air. Think even radiant electric heat is more efficient. So you lose range and time at destination as well as expense.
More background noise. Generator and system. Things get worse as water gets colder until there’s no heating at all.
Not as even a heat as hydronic. Prefer hydronic to air, air to drip diesel, diesel to solid fuel. Have had Wesbasto, Espar, several different drip types and spent time with a solid fuel stove.
But you’re right all the vessels we’ve investigated have reverse air except those from PNW. Need to determine if it’s cheaper to retrofit dedicated heat than ship a boat. Need to see if the ducting for air can be used for heat. For instance if the forward stateroom on a n40 was heated given the layout and small size think that would suffice. Don’t know enough about this.

I don't think it's practical to use AC ducting for diesel forced air heat. Diesel uses 3 inch ducts, reverse cycle AC uses scaled duct between 6 inch down to 4 inch. The diesel heat is pretty hot. Not sure how the plastic insulated AC ducts would do, especially with lower velocity movement due to larger size.

That said, I'm sure someone has done it. But it's pretty easy to run ducts for diesel heat due to its small size

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

Reverse cycle is more efficient than resistive electric heat, but it definitely has its limitations and still needs lots of generator runtime.

 

[Hippocampus]

Appreciate the two above posts. Thanks for teaching. That’s why I’m here.

 

[IRENE]

Happy to answer questions about the N40. Going on 3 years and 650 hours with #40-66, coastal only (planning offshore later), so still a lot to learn. Phone is an option too, PM number exchange with times/time zone, please.

 

[Jeff F]

I'm starting from scratch on heating and A/C systems in my new-to-me boat, with Eastern Canadian liveaboard cruising in mind. My last boat had reverse cycle A/C. Winter is not far off, so I'm pretty focused on requirements and design and getting the big components sourced.

I've chosen to focus on all weather comfort in the pilothouse and robust heat in the entire boat. I have a generator but do not want to be reliant on it or a thick shore power cord for heat, especially in the winter time. I stop and get under wraps for the really cold months.

My current plan is for a diesel hot water furnace with an uninsulated loop through the boat and thermostatically controlled blowers. Something like 45,000 btu. Have been going through the archives here for guidance and inspiration. The pilot house is getting its own 18000 btu A/C and hot air Webasto unit to allow complete comfort underway. I have a pilot berth and can cocoon quite happily in the pilot house. It's the center of the action for me. No built in A/C for the rest of the boat, but maybe some relief from humidity from the PH unit. My intent is add a second generator to the main motor to provide sufficient power for the A/C when underway through an inverter, and an array of solar panels up top that will maintain the house bank for life at anchor. If I find myself tied up somewhere hot for any length of time I'll play with portable A/C units and extension cords.

One approach and set of compromises... The decision is based partly on having the A/C and Webasto Air Top units already. They're sitting in their boxes waiting for installation. But my experience using the reverse cycle A/C for heat wasn't great, both because I was forced to use the generator off the dock, and because it wouldn't satisfy heating requirements for very cold conditions.

 

[O C Diver]

I'm starting from scratch on heating and A/C systems in my new-to-me boat, with Eastern Canadian liveaboard cruising in mind. My last boat had reverse cycle A/C. Winter is not far off, so I'm pretty focused on requirements and design and getting the big components sourced.

I've chosen to focus on all weather comfort in the pilothouse and robust heat in the entire boat. I have a generator but do not want to be reliant on it or a thick shore power cord for heat, especially in the winter time. I stop and get under wraps for the really cold months.

My current plan is for a diesel hot water furnace with an uninsulated loop through the boat and thermostatically controlled blowers. Something like 45,000 btu. Have been going through the archives here for guidance and inspiration. The pilot house is getting its own 18000 btu A/C and hot air Webasto unit to allow complete comfort underway. I have a pilot berth and can cocoon quite happily in the pilot house. It's the center of the action for me. No built in A/C for the rest of the boat, but maybe some relief from humidity from the PH unit. My intent is add a second generator to the main motor to provide sufficient power for the A/C when underway through an inverter, and an array of solar panels up top that will maintain the house bank for life at anchor. If I find myself tied up somewhere hot for any length of time I'll play with portable A/C units and extension cords.

One approach and set of compromises... The decision is based partly on having the A/C and Webasto Air Top units already. They're sitting in their boxes waiting for installation. But my experience using the reverse cycle A/C for heat wasn't great, both because I was forced to use the generator off the dock, and because it wouldn't satisfy heating requirements for very cold conditions.

If I may offer a waypoint to your heating. I installed a similar heat loop in my boat with three heater locations. Part of my cruising included crossing Lake Superior which is in the 30s F. While you will need a boiler for nighttime, mine was only for underway.

Anyway, the waypoint is that with a fuel consumption of 2 GPH from my John Deere engine, I was able to maintain internal boat temperatures slightly above 70 degrees, while crossing Superior. The engine thermostats remained closed. So, scavenging waste heat that is otherwise dumped overboard while underway, is worth while.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=350613&postcount=124

Ted

 

[Hippocampus]

We also have used the wesbasto in the other direction with excellent results. The combo of a watermaker and the wesbasto heating domestic hot water means unlimited hot water at anchor with the genset set off if you have adequate alternative energy. Fastest way to warm up is a hot shower.

 

[Jeff F]

Thanks for that. I'm solo, and generally pretty hearty WRT dealing with the cold. Generally like KISS.

Ted, I thought of your waste heat comment yesterday while cruising down a grey and cool Georgian Bay. I like your data points! The galley behind/above the motor was the coziest spot in the boat.

 

[Hippocampus]

Leaning fairly strongly toward a boat that can do passages. May end up retrofitting an air diesel set up like a hurricane or Espar. So few boats on the east have heat. Wife know how uncomfortable a cold boat is and likes northern Maine. May end up buying PNW boat and shipping it. She likes travel on the outside rather than AICW.
Closing is on Friday. Will check out the small KKs as steel still scares me the Nordhavns are still at the top of this. Road trip!!!!,

 

[O C Diver]

Thanks for that. I'm solo, and generally pretty hearty WRT dealing with the cold. Generally like KISS.

Ted, I thought of your waste heat comment yesterday while cruising down a grey and cool Georgian Bay. I like your data points! The galley behind/above the motor was the coziest spot in the boat.

Let me offer one more as one solo criser to another. I have an Island queen bed. Have had numerous nights with inside boat temps in the 40s and a couple in the 30s (never again). A twin size electric blanket under a comforter makes an excellent bed warmer. Preheat for a couple of hours to warm the bed up and then turn down to 1 or 2. The blanket draws 165 watts on high and less than 35 watts on 2. As they are resistance heat, they will happily work on pure or modified sine wave inverters.

I like a quiet boat at night and prefer not to run the generator for only a little cabin heat.

Ted

 

[sledge]

May end up buying PNW boat and shipping it

Hippo, if you do this I would point out you have a very unique opportunity; I'd strongly recommend to spend at least one season with the boat in the PNW before shipping. So few people get a chance to cruise on both sides of the country, but a caution: you and the better half might fall in love with the PNW.... anyway seriously it is incredible cruising grounds before you ship east, just a suggestion.

 

[Jeff F]

Let me offer one more as one solo criser to another. I have an Island queen bed. Have had numerous nights with inside boat temps in the 40s and a couple in the 30s (never again). A twin size electric blanket under a comforter makes an excellent bed warmer. Preheat for a couple of hours to warm the bed up and then turn down to 1 or 2. The blanket draws 165 watts on high and less than 35 watts on 2. As they are resistance heat, they will happily work on pure or modified sine wave inverters.

I like a quiet boat at night and prefer not to run the generator for only a little cabin heat.

Ted

Dug mine out and installed it this evening

It may have been one of your earlier comments here that prompted me to get one a couple of years ago.

 

[FF]

"I like a quiet boat at night and prefer not to run the generator for only a little cabin heat. "

You bet!! There are single and twin electric sheets that are 12V , no need to waste amps in an inverter.

www.kansaswindpower.net › bed_warmers

I lived aboard , mostly in the NYC area for almost 23 years.

Happily I installed a thermo syphon Dickinson unit that needed no electric.

Matters nor where the boat is kept , the electric will go out for a few days , plan for it.

Nicest is a soap stone fire place in the main cabin easy to feed with no mess charcoal,


Try P. Luke soapstone fireplace .

 

[Hippocampus]

We’ve been using the Froli springs for 7 years. More comfortable and allows some air to get under the mattress. Find boats sweat. In the tropics find the greatest benefit of AC is dropping the humidity. You never acclimate to that although you do to the heat. Find in New England cooking and even your breathing/body heat is enough to get condensation. tFind dry bedding makes a big difference and you sweat while asleep even in cool climates. Really like the idea of a DC bed warmer. Have also gone to all synthetics for all aspects of bedding.
Next boat will probably get Fire Flies as the first improvement. Might just leave the DC bed warmers on all day.