Looking for a boat

[Clivepc]

Hello all!
We are finally in a position to look for a boat. Apart from scanning the classifieds in this forum, can anyone suggest great sources to look for available boats other than the typical, boat trader/.com Yachtworld etc..

Also, does it make sense to engage a broker for the search? My inclination is no, at this stage, but advise from others more knowledgeable on the benefits, or not, would be appreciated.

Many thanks, Clive & Monica C.

 

[GMS]

Clive and Monica,

We went into the purchase of our current boat thinking a buyer's broker was unnecessary. However, we ended up meeting a broker we really liked and he helped us understand the benefits of a buyer's broker. A buyer's broker does not cost the buyer anything and they are working for you. The buyer's broker can arrange boat showings and surveys as well as typically having a very good pulse on the current market in the local area.

If you have a particular boat in mind, a broker can assist you in locating potential boats, and will at time hear about boats for sale before they hit the market.

It also seems like a good idea to seek out a broker that specializes in the type of boat you are looking for. For example, if you are looking for a Nordhavn or Selene, working directly with the local representatives of these brands will help you get access to boats before they hit the market.

The only potential downside would be how the broker might handle a private sale where the seller is attempting to avoid paying a commission - otherwise, I see no downsides for a buyer.

Our 2 cents...

Cheers,

Greg

 

[Clivepc]

Greg, I suspected what you are saying might be the case. My sister in law is a buyers agent in real estate, and even though i spent most of my working life in home construction she was the first buyers agent I came across and her approach is much different than that of typical realtors I have worked with and met.

Unfortunately, as specific boats are hard to find, and time is running out continually, we may need to be somewhat open minded about a boat rather than searching for a particular make and model. having said that, we certainly have our top 5 so as to speak and mostly RPH with cockpit and room for a tender on top hit most buttons.
So, OA 486/510 Classico, Jefferson 50/52 SE RPH, McKenna/Vitesse 48 RPH, Symbol 50 RPH, being top choices and flush deck PH boats coming in second.
Any suggestions for a broker?
Cheers, Clive C.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,

A good buyers broker, for sure!

 

[Clivepc]

Suggestions?
Cheers RTF

 

[GMS]

Where are you located (or maybe more importantly, where are you looking for a boat)?

 

[Benthic2]

.... A buyer's broker does not cost the buyer anything and they are working for you....

A buyers broker does not work for free and there is only one source of funds in a boat purchase.

I am not disputing that they are not a good option, just that they are not free.

 

[Clivepc]

I totally agree, all fees come out of the purchaser's funds leaving less room for negotiation.
But then the fee may be justified if they find the right boat, organize a thorough survey and deal with all the legalities efficiently. Thats the quandary. It's hard to know going in which is the best outcome.
At this point I was hoping forum members may have sourced out other initial avenues where boats are offered for sale to help our personal search.
Cheers GMS

 

[Gdavid]

At this point I was hoping forum members may have sourced out other initial avenues where boats are offered for sale to help our personal search.
Cheers GMS

Asking here is a decent start, you might also look for owner's groups associated with those boats and reaching out to express interest in purchasing, they tend to track who is planning to sell, where one may be sitting unloved in a boat yard or just underused.

 

[Clivepc]

Gdavid,
Thats a dammed good idea Sir.
Cheers,
Clive C. TBW

 

[firehoser75]

Clive,
I agree with the others about finding and utilizing a "buyer's broker", or at least a broker who is working on your behalf to help you find a good boat (for you, your needs and wants), and to guide you through the process. Many good reasons already given.
If you end up offering on a boat listed with a broker, in most cases, the commission is split and most often does not really increase your costs or reduce your negotiation room. The commission the seller is paying out of the proceeds is "set". Different story if it is a privately listed boat. In that case, (assuming you found the boat yourself), you could just not use the broker, or pay him/her a "fee" for his help and services (not necessarily the full "normal" commission (5%)). If the broker introduces you to the private sale, then I would suggest paying him/her for their services (and that could be negotiated (best done upfront so no unhappy surprises)).
Just be "upfront" with the broker about what you want both in a boat, and in your expectations in the services provided (eg. private boats or not) and "fee" wise. JMHO.

Good luck!

 

[GMS]

Posts pointing out that there is only one source of funds in a boat purchase are correct, and it is also correct to say that brokers don't work for free (nor should they, as they provide a valuable professional service).

That said, the vast majority of boat sales are conducted through brokers - with most boats being listed or put up for sale through a seller's broker. Once the owner enlists a seller's broker, representation by a buyer's broker is unlikely to "cost" the buyer anything.

In the end, if you can find a private sale and avoid brokers altogether - great! There will be more room for negotiation and both sides are likely to come out ahead. However, you will need to be prepared to handle a complex transaction on your own. In these situations, it would be wise to at least employ the services of a marine title company to ensure the transaction is handled properly (provide escrow services, etc...).

Just like real estate brokers, boat brokers can serve a valuable function - but you do need to find a good one.

If you enlist a Buyer's Broker, and then find a private sale (without involvement by the broker) you are typically under no obligation to involve the broker in the private sale.

Note, I am not a broker nor do I have any relationship with any brokers (in a business sense). I have just bought and sold a number of boats, and have found sufficient value in using a broker on both sides of the transactions.

 

[Clivepc]

Tom, sound and reasonable advice, many thanks,
Clive C TBW

 

[Taras]

If you are new to the boat buying process, then for sure get a broker so you don't get into something that you'll regret later. The seller pays for the commission for selling the boat, not the buyer but when 2 brokers are involved in the sale/purchase of a boat, it does take some negotiation room away (sometimes).
Bottom line: New/novice boat buyer - have a good broker represent you. If you are a seasoned veteran at boat buying, then you probably don't need one.

 

[Clivepc]

GMS, all agreed, makes sense.. TBW

 

[Clivepc]

Taras, very seasoned buyer of many things but not larger Motor boats.
While I think my many varied engineering and mechanical experiences will help find a good boat along with a survey, we3 are certainly novices at buying these things, many thanks, Clive C. TBW

 

[huruta]

We were first time boat buyers this summer and did not use a broker. We bought our boat from a private seller. We found it advertised on the Nordic Tug Facebook page, so you might check out Facebook or forums for the particular boat you are interested -- if the boat is in high demand, you might find boats not listed using conventional sources that you mention.

As for the private buyer/private seller experience, it was totally fine. The seller was great to work with but if they hadn't been I could see where a broker could have been useful. If we were to do it all over again, I'd do the same thing. I'd locate the boat we wanted (ours had all the bells and whistles we desired) and then figure out how to proceed. I do think we paid a little less and that the seller was willing to negotiate a bit more because he wasn't paying a commission. We had a full inspection and a title company help us and it worked out just fine. The boat has worked out just as expected - really well!

 

[Clivepc]

Thanks Huruta, as with all things I'm sure there are experiences at both ends of the spectrum for both broker and private purchases/sales.
Many thanks for your input,
Clive C. TBW

 

[Clivepc]

Anyone know a buyers broker they would recommend? I might add we intend to purchase on the east coast. Somewhere.

 

[RedRascal]

If there is a particular brand of boat you are after I'd suggest getting plugged into brokers that specialize/deal with that particular brand. The market has been so hot some boats don't even get listed and are sold without marketing.

huruta had a good example of watching the Nordic Tug facebook group as a source.

 

[Rufus]

Anyone know a buyers broker they would recommend? I might add we intend to purchase on the east coast. Somewhere.

...you might include the Great Lakes in your search.

 

[SteveK]

OK as someone who has never used a buyers broker, I really would like to hear why so many here are saying get a buyers broker. What has a buyers broker done for you that you could not have done for yourself.
My assumption is we are all capable of using google, searching yachtworld, craiglist, etc until a boat or boats stand out as the one to narrow down the search.
Seriously, what has a buyers broker done for you that warrants the recommendation?

 

[psneeld]

My experience it depends what price range or how specific brand/model you are interested in.

For project boats or inexpensive turn key boats...searching the net such as Craigslist and Facebook marketplace...etc... can be productive.

My boat was bought off Craigslist the day it was coming off Craigslist and jumping in price $10,000 to cover broker commissions and was sold off here...not by classifieds but people who sensed I was going to sell and contacted me before it hit the market.

Granted my boat and many others acquired this way are all mostly 2/3 or less the price you will see listed on Yachworld or advertised by brokers.... but that doesn't always mean they are lesser boats. Many times it's just cosmetics.

Not saying brokers don't have their place...if going newer or higher end...sure I wouldn't buy without one (not saying they really are a good source that the boat is sound). But many boats out there, depending on wants/needs aren't necessarily in the standard circles of brokerages and costly advertising methods.

 

[ranger58sb]

OK as someone who has never used a buyers broker, I really would like to hear why so many here are saying get a buyers broker. What has a buyers broker done for you that you could not have done for yourself.
My assumption is we are all capable of using google, searching yachtworld, craiglist, etc until a boat or boats stand out as the one to narrow down the search.
Seriously, what has a buyers broker done for you that warrants the recommendation?

We had a buyer's broker for our first biggish boat. The Internet was finally expanding to a broader audience at the time, but this still pre-dated Google, Yachtworld, craigslist, etc.

We were all over the map when it came to boat styles, brands, etc. -- at the time having only just decided firmly to go power rather than sail -- and he talked us through pros/cons of almost everything we saw advertised. And then he found us a great boat, one that hadn't at all been on my target horizon -- because it had only a single diesel engine. The boat wasn't actually even listed for sale; he talked the owner into it...

I had been focusing on twin engine gas "convertibles" or similar, thinking a single screw boat would have been too difficult to learn. He convinced me I had enough of a clue to do well, and the boat itself turned out to be an almost perfect starter boat.

34' 1987 Mainship Mk III with 220-hp DD 8.2T.

I'd have never figured that out by myself.

-Chris

 

[Flatswing]

If you are on the East Coast/Great Lakes and are looking for a boat in the $250 K and higher spectrum, then you can’t go wrong with Zimmermans Yacht Purchase Program. It will give you useful, experienced advice specific to that segment at a fair price. Highly recommended as it will save you a lot of time & unnecessary travel. As others have said, FSBO boats will require some negotiation with your buyers broker. if you buy a boat without your own broker, or choose (unwisely imo) to use the listing broker as your rep too, there is rarely room to negotiate the brokers fee, the selling broker will say he/ she is entitled to both fees and usually is reluctant to give these up.

 

[Rufus]

Bay Marine of Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin was the Ocean Alexander dealer back before they moved away from smaller boats and on to super yachts. The Felhofer family has owned Bay Marine for many decades. They have three marinas on the Wisconsin/Illinois side of Lake Michigan. Mark Felhofer and his brother Matt are straight shooters who know and understand the class of boats that you're searching for.

 

[Shrew]

OK as someone who has never used a buyers broker, I really would like to hear why so many here are saying get a buyers broker. What has a buyers broker done for you that you could not have done for yourself.
My assumption is we are all capable of using google, searching yachtworld, craiglist, etc until a boat or boats stand out as the one to narrow down the search.
Seriously, what has a buyers broker done for you that warrants the recommendation?

IMHO, not much.

Firstly, when you approach a broker, they are going to try and show you the boats they have listed. Don't kid yourself, their fiduciary responsibility at this point is to the seller, not the buyer.

Once they can't find a boat in their listings, then they slide the 'buyer's broker' contract over to you and hit Yachtworld. This entitles them to split the commission 50/50 with the listing broker.

The commission comes off of the sellers end, so insinuating that the buyer is paying is silly. The buyer wouldn't get a 10% discount for a private sale. That golden ring shines in the eye of the seller.

You can find the same boat on yachtworld and approach the listing broker. There is no magic, hidden MLS listing for boats that only brokers have access too.

 

[Clivepc]

RedRascal, yea i think that's a good idea but i also think if we are too fo0cused on one brand it could take a while to find a boat. Although the market seems to be softening as i get e mails from brokers almost daily showing price reduced.
Good news for a buyer..
Cheers,
TBW

 

[huruta]

If there is a particular brand of boat you are after I'd suggest getting plugged into brokers that specialize/deal with that particular brand. The market has been so hot some boats don't even get listed and are sold without marketing.

huruta had a good example of watching the Nordic Tug facebook group as a source.

I agree with this. There's one guy, Jeff Gleckler, who here in the PNW specializes in Nordic Tugs - he has a great reputation among the NT community (well deserved, he trained me after purchase) and often has his pulse on what's coming for sale that's not already on the market. Being connected to such people can help you find a higher in demand boat, along with some patience/flexibility. We were planning to buy this coming summer but the perfect boat came along this past summer and here we are. I met Jeff at the NT rendezvous which I attended before we owned one - last May, when trying to figure out whether an NT was a good fit for us. Attending this event also gave us confidence in our choice and working with Jeff for training (highly recommend him).

Someone asked why use a broker at all. Had the seller not been responsive, I think a broker could have shepherded the process along. However, the seller in our case was very responsive and so no problems at all.

 

[Inbreaker]

The point made by Shrew is an important one to remember. The broker's fee comes from the seller, and if the broker owes anyone agent-like fiduciary duties, it is the seller. Before you take the 'buyer's agent' into your confidence in the course of a negotiation, you might want to consider that.
You might get lucky. The broker you choose might be aware of a likely boat that is not public knowledge (although, like Steve K, I rather doubt that). They may genuinely want to steer you away from problem boats- although that was not my experience. I made an offer on a boat from 'my' broker's branch agency, and walked away after survey. I ate those costs, and did a private deal for a different boat. The purchase price reflected the lack of commission and my legal fees were a small fraction of half the usual commission.