Longterm Cruisers: What do you spend???

[rslifkin]

What's interesting to me is lately there have been dozens of posts bemoaning fuel costs, how it's their largest or second largest expense. Compared to what? Over a 5-year period of ownership, how many people spend more on fuel than hauling their boat? Or insurance? Or hull buffing? Or any of the myriad of boat expenses that are rarely included in a TCO model? As mentioned above, I deliberately ignore these expenses, but that's a personal decision to preserve sanity.

I did the math for another thread and found that for 2021, our cost breakdown was as follows. We managed to spend very little on transient dockage last year (mostly went places that were really cheap or had a free town dock).

• Fuel: 17%
• Summer dockage: 18.8%
• Haulout and storage: 17%
• Insurance: 10%
• Transient dockage: 1.2%
• Upgrades / Maintenance: 36%

Raising fuel prices by 50% (but keeping the rest the same) would change the mix to:

• Fuel: 23.5%
• Summer dockage: 17.3%
• Haulout and storage: 15.7%
• Insurance: 9.2%
• Transient dockage: 1%
• Upgrades / Maintenance: 33.3%

Last year was a bit heavy on the upgrades / maintenance costs due to the inverter and solar install, etc. This year will be a bit heavy too due to the water tank replacement and some other water system upgrades to go with it. Keep in mind, my upgrades / maintenance budget is almost entirely parts cost, as we have a somewhat limited boat budget so I pretty much refuse to pay someone to do things I can do myself.

 

[NEtrawler58]

I think a 50% rise in fuel prices this season vs. last will be conservative, unless things turn around soon.

 

[ranger58sb]

In the end, TCO of boat ownership is an important question to all newbies, be they new to boating or making a large change or step-up.

Yes, and... or maybe but... boat cost isn't the same as life cost. Hippo's example illustrates two different lifestyles, and I'd make a wild guess that maybe each of those couples treats the whole rest of their life budget similarly, too.

I mostly only balk when it comes to categorizing overall expenses. Medical insurance or grocery bills and similar, for example, aren't boat expenses -- for us.

What I find amusing is that there are some members here who absolutely insist that fuel costs are insignificant and others here that have data that show it's their biggest expense for the boating they do.

FWIW, I have not said INsignificant for us; I've said LESS significant. For us, dockage, insurance, and maintenance (even when I do most of that myself) costs exceed fuel costs.

As with most things, somebody else's MMV.

-Chris

 

[NEtrawler58]

Hi Chris, I wasn't referring to you and I agree with you. I also don't consider food a boating expense. However, we probably go to restaurants more often when boating then when not. It's not part of the cost of boating, but a byproduct of it for us.

 

[mvweebles]

I did the math for another thread and found that for 2021, our cost breakdown was as follows. We managed to spend very little on transient dockage last year (mostly went places that were really cheap or had a free town dock).

• Fuel: 17%
• Summer dockage: 18.8%
• Haulout and storage: 17%
• Insurance: 10%
• Transient dockage: 1.2%
• Upgrades / Maintenance: 36%

Raising fuel prices by 50% (but keeping the rest the same) would change the mix to:

• Fuel: 23.5%
• Summer dockage: 17.3%
• Haulout and storage: 15.7%
• Insurance: 9.2%
• Transient dockage: 1%
• Upgrades / Maintenance: 33.3%

Last year was a bit heavy on the upgrades / maintenance costs due to the inverter and solar install, etc. This year will be a bit heavy too due to the water tank replacement and some other water system upgrades to go with it. Keep in mind, my upgrades / maintenance budget is almost entirely parts cost, as we have a somewhat limited boat budget so I pretty much refuse to pay someone to do things I can do myself.

This is useful information. Especially if extrapolated for a use case. And especially if the maintenance/upgrade costs are smoothed over a few years to take the lumpiness out.

Assume a 40-ish foot two cabin boat, twin engines, owner does most maintenance. Heavy use during the summer season with winter storage. I'd guess the overall operating costs are in the $20k range, give or take. With a 50% increase in fuel, overall costs go to $21.7k, or an 8.5% overall increase due to cost of fuel increasing 50%.

Even though a single data point, that type of information would really help people curious about diving into boating, and for those nervous about fuel costs (such as sailors).

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

This is useful information. Especially if extrapolated for a use case. And especially if the maintenance/upgrade costs are smoothed over a few years to take the lumpiness out.

Assume a 40-ish foot two cabin boat, twin engines, owner does most maintenance. Heavy use during the summer season with winter storage. I'd guess the overall operating costs are in the $20k range, give or take. With a 50% increase in fuel, overall costs go to $21.7k, or an 8.5% overall increase due to cost of fuel increasing 50%.

Even though a single data point, that type of information would really help people curious about diving into boating, and for those nervous about fuel costs (such as sailors).

Peter

We've clocked in a bit below that $20k the last couple years, but you're definitely in the ballpark. Usage wise, we put 82 hours on the engines last year and about 90 in 2020. We burned less fuel in gallons last year, but similar on cost. And we did more traveling last year but less local boating.

We've got gassers as well, so someone with diesels would likely have slightly lower operating costs (probably about 1/2 the fuel cost, but maintenance costs would be a little higher). Skipping the indoor winter storage would also save a bit, but in our case, we don't have winter covers for the boat. So we'd spend easily 50% of the difference on shrink wrap anyway.

So far, the only time we cracked $3000 in fuel for a season was when we brought the boat up from CT to NY in 2019 (and we weren't actually all that far over $3k, nor were we trying at all to save fuel on that trip).

I also tend to think of costs as 2 categories. There are the base costs of having the boat, then there are costs (fuel, some maintenance items, etc.) that scale based on how much we use the boat.

 

[Hippocampus]

NE once again think “it depends “ applies. Our initial intention was to transfer from sail to power but keep our initial itinerary . So looked at miles traveled. 2000 times two for passage plus 1000 in the Caribbean and 500 in New England/mid Atlantic states for a total of ~5500 m/year. Looking at logs had a low of 5000 but a high of 7000 one year. Thought to go with a N43. Passage cut down to ~3500/yr but other use the same.
Ended up going coastal. Estimated use is 4000m/yr all coastal/near coastal in a SD hull. So for us fuel cost is a meaningful number. Even coastal expect going from 5500 to 4000. Think that’s not uncommon for snow birders on small trawlers
It’s very different for the seasonal regional boater. Hear all kinds of numbers but somewhere around 1000m/year is a reasonable guessamate.
For someone like TT although he’s probably doing similar or greater miles per year probably isn’t a major %age of TCO. For someone staying in the same cruising grounds doing less miles per year again fuel is less of a %age of TCO as his fixed costs (especially if only seasonal use) remain the same.
So at both ends of the spectrums of size or usage you get very different impacts than that in the middle of those two bell shaped curves.

Think food and beverage costs are boat costs. On the boat we’re more gourmet than gourmand. Beef in the Caribbean sucks c/w US beef. Would go to the specialty shops serving the mega yacht crowd to buy meat. Surprisely if store bought so does fish/shell fish c/w New England. So whenever on the north side of a island would fish. No ciguatera for us thank you. Wine, bread and bake goods are much better in the French islands and selection of single malts and diary/cheeses better on British. So as we bopped around would stock up or eat different things on different islands. Our annual food costs while cruising were nearly double that of periods while we were in the dirt dwelling.

Similarly health/med expenses vary depending upon your decisions. We decided to get the highest level of med evac but also set up telemed. All meds are out of pocket (abet much cheaper) as our US insurance provided little coverage and was such a PIA we decided to not use it. On the up side being a MD/RN couple involvement with local healthcare was minimal. Some cruising friends went with much less expensive med evac and waited for brief returns to the states for all medical care. Their costs where probably less than half of ours.
At home with wife a foodie restaurant usage increases dramatically. Although fruit in the Caribbean is amazing in general restaurants don’t hold a candle to what’s available in the states. True for high end c/w high end but really true for mid range as well. Much less incentive to go to a restaurant when cruising. Of course there’s a few exceptions. Best meals were holes in the wall where locals go. The most notable is baked goods on the French islands. Americans suck at making bread and pastry.

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: In two consecutive posts we saw 82 hours vs 4000-5500 miles which was likely in the range of 600-700 hours. In 2021, we covered 19,000 miles in 900 hours. Our average is about 16,000 nm and 800-900 hours. Several here cruise similar hours to us, but then I'm sure there are many in the 100 hours per year range. We did hit 1000 hours on our Loop year. (I'll bet OC Diver hit 1000 hours that year as well). Even when we lived on the lake in NC we averaged 300-450 hours per year. We would boat for 8 or even 10 hours on a lake less than 40 miles long. Some fast, some slow.

The average boat....all boats, not just TF types...averages fewer than 100 hours per year. I see the need for a poll of average engine hours per year.

 

[rslifkin]

Wifey B: In two consecutive posts we saw 82 hours vs 4000-5500 miles which was likely in the range of 600-700 hours. In 2021, we covered 19,000 miles in 900 hours. Our average is about 16,000 nm and 800-900 hours. Several here cruise similar hours to us, but then I'm sure there are many in the 100 hours per year range. We did hit 1000 hours on our Loop year. (I'll bet OC Diver hit 1000 hours that year as well). Even when we lived on the lake in NC we averaged 300-450 hours per year. We would boat for 8 or even 10 hours on a lake less than 40 miles long. Some fast, some slow.

The average boat....all boats, not just TF types...averages fewer than 100 hours per year. I see the need for a poll of average engine hours per year.

There's definitely a wide variation. Some move around more than others, and this site also has a mix of those of us traveling part time vs those that are full time (or a large chunk of the year) on the boat.

 

[NEtrawler58]

I agree with Wifey B that if you average all boats, 100 hours is probably in the ballpark. Individual use however will vary wildly from that average.

 

[O C Diver]

Wifey B: Several here cruise similar hours to us, but then I'm sure there are many in the 100 hours per year range. We did hit 1000 hours on our Loop year. (I'll bet OC Diver hit 1000 hours that year as well).

I thought that was you looking over my shoulder. 1,028 hours in 2017.

Ted

 

[BandB]

I thought that was you looking over my shoulder. 1,028 hours in 2017.

Ted

Wifey B: Then go put it in the poll I created.

 

[Simi 60]

About $3500 a month for us for the last 5 years
That's $2560 USD
That's just us and the boat

 

[dannc]

I know fuel prices are going up fast in last week or so, but the last time I was out of the house last week, on road diesel had jumped to 4.70USD. I think the highest I paid in the past was around 4.50USD. I guess I should check my log book....

Anyway, depending on what price you want to use as a starting point, diesel has gone up by 25% in the last few weeks or so.

Does that 25% increase hurt?

Depends on how much fuel you are burning. Working at home, I have only been filling up the truck 2-3 times A YEAR. If I have to start driving to work full time again, I will be filling up 2-3 times a month. A 25% increase will hurt.

Last year we were on the coast of NC and saw some interesting anchorages. The wifey and I thought we could spend a good month or two in that area, mainly anchored out, but also going into marinas from time to time. We would not burn much fuel for two months in that area so the diesel price increase would not hurt much. If we were doing the loop, going back and forth to FLA, etc, it would hurt.

The painfulness of the price increase is going to depend on how many gallons one burns in a given time period, regardless if the engine is in a vehicle, tractor or boat.

Later,
Dan

 

[Crusty Chief]

Kinda reminds me of the old phrase in real estate, “location, location, location”!

And food costs should be included for that simple reason. Getting food in different countries is a costly endeavor, hell, just getting to a store can cost a lot. Round trip costs in El Salvador or Northern Panama to a decent size store was over a $100 USD. Local stores didn’t have most of the items we needed just to continue our journey to the next stop.

Try getting replacement parts to repair the boat in Costa Rica, between Customs, import fee’s, transportation and other costs, we saw prices increase 4 times what they would cost back in the USA. In Panama, we needed to replace our house batteries. In the US they would have cost us $2,500 , In Panama they cost us $4,600.

Then you have entry and exit fee’s into countries that were absurd. Now Covid caused some of those costs to be higher, but $1,300 just to enter a country and another $400 to exit….well you get the idea.

And dont even get me started on insurance costs for distance cruising. Insurance costs were 4 times higher in the Hurricane belt than up in the Pacific NW.

So “It Depends” is really relevant if you compare a weekend cruiser or a summer cruiser to a long distance cruiser.

Thanks for an informative topic, and lively discussion.

Cheers

 

[long-cours.62]

Lucky guy !

We did 4,300 nm this year, averaging 3.8 nmpg. Fuel cost $3,600 - second highest expense after moorage.

Yesterday I asked to order diesel for two motor yacht ...
After few hours the answer was : " our and our colleague have no more diesel (or even fuel for heater red one or GNR green one for barge and agricultural or blue for fisher man.) the refineries don't deliver any more, we only could have a small quantities at ...2.78€ per liter!
it means something 11.57$ per gallon thank for the "sanction" against Russia it work very well against ...our self


For bunkering at acceptable price we must now, cross the Mediterranean, to Tunisia ( but Tunisia have not petrol she could also run out) it mean Algeria

 

[Hippocampus]

CC did you use a customs broker? We found a good one in St. Lucia who had contacts of similar folks throughout the eastern Caribbean. Found without using one things would sit and not be released sometimes for days and days. Also found how things were described and what was included in pricing effected fees. Apparently there’s a difference depending upon who is your broker. Also used one out of Miami. She was very helpful in shipping.

 

[Crusty Chief]

CC did you use a customs broker? We found a good one in St. Lucia who had contacts of similar folks throughout the eastern Caribbean. Found without using one things would sit and not be released sometimes for days and days. Also found how things were described and what was included in pricing effected fees. Apparently there’s a difference depending upon who is your broker. Also used one out of Miami. She was very helpful in shipping.

We used a Customs broker in a few places, like, Panama. But for the most part, you needed to find “the Guy” who knew a Guy who’s cousin knew the girl……you get the point. We were in Southern Mexico and needed a new Exhaust Hose for the main. First we had to find the “Mechanic” to remove and replace the Hose, his cousin knew a guy in Southern California who found the hose. Then we needed a guy to get it across the border down to Ensenada to the Airport. He had a guy to get it on a plane down south, then the mechanic drove 150 miles to pick it up. Then his little brother was needed to get in the back of the engine room to help line up the hose to the bulkhead coupler. That one hose was 3 times more to replace than in the US. Then we had to sit in a marina for 3 weeks for that repair. Thank God, we had taco stands and Cold Cervesa’s for that one, LOL!

 

[dannc]

I know fuel prices are going up fast in last week or so, but the last time I was out of the house last week, on road diesel had jumped to 4.70USD. I think the highest I paid in the past was around 4.50USD. I guess I should check my log book....

Anyway, depending on what price you want to use as a starting point, diesel has gone up by 25% in the last few weeks or so.

Does that 25% increase hurt? ...

I quoteth myself.

Had to leave the house to day. Last week diesel was up to 4.70 USD....

Today, I saw road diesel at 5.00, 5.10, and 5.30 USD. So around a 34% increase in the last week or so.

But it still depends on how much fuel one uses to determine how bad the price rise hurts.

Later,
Dan

 

[Hippocampus]

We rolled this way. Got a price from Budget Marine or island water ways. Then surfed net to get a price in the US. Usually US price was a fraction. So bought it using her as US agent so her shipping address. She then arranged shipping using local customs agent as shipping address. We’d go to C&I office with local agent and pick up the part. Always “yacht in transit “. That usually saved about a third of the total cost and meant we got it up to a week earlier.

 

[JD Ray]

I agree with Wifey B that if you average all boats, 100 hours is probably in the ballpark. Individual use however will vary wildly from that average.

Now I'm bracing for the "all hours aren't the same" responses. "An hour at 1500 RPM isn't the same as an hour at 3000 RPM!!! It really depends on how fast you're going. The real question is how many nm you travel. This post is irrelevant!!!"

 

[JD Ray]

https://luxyachts.com/yacht-cost-calculator

That looks like it could be a useful tool if it could be used for boats under 80 feet. I realize its entire raison d' etre is for people determining how much their megayacht will cost them, including crew, based on a usage counted in weeks. For the rest of us, not so useful as a calculator.

This, of course, isn't why you posted it. Instead you were encouraging people (rightly) to look at all the line items and be sure they're accounting for them (as applicable to individual situations).

If we could assemble some foundational data on cruising trawlers (sub-74 feet, which, IIRC, is the limit that requires crew), something like this could be constructed. The technical underpinnings here aren't that difficult. The data, on the other hand...

 

[Group9]

The hull shape is generally more slippery at low speeds unless you're comparing to the most efficient of trawlers (like your Willard). For a 40 foot sailboat, 5 - 6+ mpg while motoring is not uncommon. Many 40 foot trawlers won't achieve better than half that unless going much slower than a knot below hull speed.

That’s about the mileage we got with our 42 Catalina sailboat with a 40 hp Yanmar diesel (4 cylinder 4JGBE non turbo).

 

[Hippocampus]

Another variable is use pattern modified by experience. We’re currently on a new to us boat doing ou first transit as mom and pop only. So we use the SeaKeeper more than we will in the future not yet being secure in knowing when it won’t be necessary. That means the genset is on. We are insecure about what weather the boat can handle so have more conservative weather windows. That means we run faster during those favorable windows wanting to make miles during those times. Being on a SD hull we can pretty much ignore tides/currents except for runs like east river/hell gate and tend to do so. This is direct opposition to our prior behavior on the sailboat. We are also more conservative when transiting high traffic areas making more course corrections to maintain distance.
I know our behavior will change in time with more experience and confident in this boat. Through out this first long hop we have not approached the efficiency seen on the engine seatrial done before purchase. Also think personality effects the numbers. Some coming from long distance sailboat travel might tend to want more reverse so be much lighter on the throttle and tolerant of slower speeds. Others coming from center consoles or other planing hulls may push it more. Some may be more concerned about seeing weather. Others more secure in thei boat and themselves.

 

[BandB]

Another variable is use pattern modified by experience. We’re currently on a new to us boat doing ou first transit as mom and pop only. So we use the SeaKeeper more than we will in the future not yet being secure in knowing when it won’t be necessary. That means the genset is on. We are insecure about what weather the boat can handle so have more conservative weather windows. That means we run faster during those favorable windows wanting to make miles during those times. Being on a SD hull we can pretty much ignore tides/currents except for runs like east river/hell gate and tend to do so. This is direct opposition to our prior behavior on the sailboat. We are also more conservative when transiting high traffic areas making more course corrections to maintain distance.
I know our behavior will change in time with more experience and confident in this boat. Through out this first long hop we have not approached the efficiency seen on the engine seatrial done before purchase. Also think personality effects the numbers. Some coming from long distance sailboat travel might tend to want more reverse so be much lighter on the throttle and tolerant of slower speeds. Others coming from center consoles or other planing hulls may push it more. Some may be more concerned about seeing weather. Others more secure in thei boat and themselves.

Wifey B: Or you may find out you really like faster?

I think there's also an attitude. Do your numbers and budget and history simply reflect what you choose to do or do you manage costs to try to hit targets. Savings may require sacrifice. Now if you can make those sacrifices without feeling like you sacrificed, then that's perfection.

 

[Dougcole]

One thing that no one discuss much, or at least in this thread anyway, when comparing the cost of sail to power and crusing in general, is the price of maintaining rigging and sails. It is quite significant, enough to offset quite a bit of the additional fuel cost of a slow, economical cruising powerboat.


In my experience (I've sailed a good bit, but would not call myself a sailor) sailors think they sail a LOT more than they actually do, they run their motors probably three times as many hours as they sail without them. Especially if you include the hours many sailors run their engines to charge batteries. Yes, the motors are generally smaller, burn less fuel and are cheaper to maintain, but it still costs money to run them, perhaps 1/2 the cost of running and taking care of a cruising powerboat diesel.


But then they have sails, running rigging, standing rigging, furlers, spars that need painting, wind instruments, winches, etc. All of which are expensive to keep up and astronomical to replace.


Anyway, it is one of the hidden costs of cruising that is seldom brought up by sailors on the CF. The wind is far from free.

 

[BandB]

The wind is far from free.

Wifey B: What? 9 mph in NYC today, how much do I have to pay and to whom? Next you'll be telling me the wind kills birds and causes cancer.



Sorry, couldn't resist taking the one sentence out of context.

 

[dannc]

One thing that no one discuss much, or at least in this thread anyway, when comparing the cost of sail to power and crusing in general, is the price of maintaining rigging and sails. It is quite significant, enough to offset quite a bit of the additional fuel cost of a slow, economical cruising powerboat.
...

Anyway, it is one of the hidden costs of cruising that is seldom brought up by sailors on the CF. The wind is far from free.

Yep. The wind is free. The cost is in catching the wind.

The cost of sailing vs power does pop up on CF but it might take some digging in past conversations or in a new one. The Dashews, and I am pretty sure Leonard/Starzinger, mention that sailing cost more than power.

Since the usual replacement time of sails and standing rigging can be around a decade or more, it is easy to not count that expense. I suspect the cost of running rigging, which happens more frequently, but not as often as filling up with fuel, is often not included in the cost of sailing.

The Morgan's Cloud website has a expense spreadsheet, https://www.morganscloud.com/2014/07/28/estimating-the-cost-of-maintaining-a-voyaging-sailboat/, which is behind a paywall but worth the cost. The article mentions that the spreadsheet work for theexpense of a displacement power boat as well as sailboats.

 

[Hippocampus]

Hours is a key number for service and consumables. That plus fixed costs is your budget except for discretionary expenses.

 

[Simi 60]

One thing that no one discuss much, or at least in this thread anyway, when comparing the cost of sail to power and crusing in general, is the price of maintaining rigging and sails. It is quite significant, enough to offset quite a bit of the additional fuel cost of a slow, economical cruising powerboat.
.

It's a cost I have always taken into consideration

A sailing cat to give consistent 8 knot speeds and give us the comfort and load carrying ability that we enjoy now would be 60ft+ (it still would not carry the load)

Rig and deck gear alone for that would cost more than our current vessel
Sail costs would provide a decade or more worth of big fuel miles by which time the sails and rigging would need replacing as well.


A sailing mono would need to be near 80+ ft
Same numbers applies

Add into that the fact that it would be a bloody handfull to sail short handed
And initial cost of vessel would be 10 X and more to purchase
And a powered vessel makes perfect sense.

Of course if we were young and loved the Luddite caveman existence we would still have the first 10m cat we built.
Blow up air mattress and 2 X 25 litre water containers
Fold up deck chair
Lots of tinned tuna and rice.