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Old 03-09-2022, 12:56 PM   #41
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Wifey B: Several here cruise similar hours to us, but then I'm sure there are many in the 100 hours per year range. We did hit 1000 hours on our Loop year. (I'll bet OC Diver hit 1000 hours that year as well).
I thought that was you looking over my shoulder. 1,028 hours in 2017.

Ted
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Old 03-09-2022, 01:06 PM   #42
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I thought that was you looking over my shoulder. 1,028 hours in 2017.

Ted
Wifey B: Then go put it in the poll I created.
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Old 03-09-2022, 02:28 PM   #43
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About $3500 a month for us for the last 5 years
That's $2560 USD
That's just us and the boat
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Old 03-09-2022, 05:36 PM   #44
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I know fuel prices are going up fast in last week or so, but the last time I was out of the house last week, on road diesel had jumped to 4.70USD. I think the highest I paid in the past was around 4.50USD. I guess I should check my log book....

Anyway, depending on what price you want to use as a starting point, diesel has gone up by 25% in the last few weeks or so.

Does that 25% increase hurt?

Depends on how much fuel you are burning. Working at home, I have only been filling up the truck 2-3 times A YEAR. If I have to start driving to work full time again, I will be filling up 2-3 times a month. A 25% increase will hurt.

Last year we were on the coast of NC and saw some interesting anchorages. The wifey and I thought we could spend a good month or two in that area, mainly anchored out, but also going into marinas from time to time. We would not burn much fuel for two months in that area so the diesel price increase would not hurt much. If we were doing the loop, going back and forth to FLA, etc, it would hurt.

The painfulness of the price increase is going to depend on how many gallons one burns in a given time period, regardless if the engine is in a vehicle, tractor or boat.

Later,
Dan
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Old 03-10-2022, 12:03 AM   #45
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Kinda reminds me of the old phrase in real estate, “location, location, location”!

And food costs should be included for that simple reason. Getting food in different countries is a costly endeavor, hell, just getting to a store can cost a lot. Round trip costs in El Salvador or Northern Panama to a decent size store was over a $100 USD. Local stores didn’t have most of the items we needed just to continue our journey to the next stop.

Try getting replacement parts to repair the boat in Costa Rica, between Customs, import fee’s, transportation and other costs, we saw prices increase 4 times what they would cost back in the USA. In Panama, we needed to replace our house batteries. In the US they would have cost us $2,500 , In Panama they cost us $4,600.

Then you have entry and exit fee’s into countries that were absurd. Now Covid caused some of those costs to be higher, but $1,300 just to enter a country and another $400 to exit….well you get the idea.

And dont even get me started on insurance costs for distance cruising. Insurance costs were 4 times higher in the Hurricane belt than up in the Pacific NW.

So “It Depends” is really relevant if you compare a weekend cruiser or a summer cruiser to a long distance cruiser.

Thanks for an informative topic, and lively discussion.

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Old 03-10-2022, 02:51 AM   #46
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Lucky guy !

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We did 4,300 nm this year, averaging 3.8 nmpg. Fuel cost $3,600 - second highest expense after moorage.

Yesterday I asked to order diesel for two motor yacht ...
After few hours the answer was : " our and our colleague have no more diesel (or even fuel for heater red one or GNR green one for barge and agricultural or blue for fisher man.) the refineries don't deliver any more, we only could have a small quantities at ...2.78€ per liter!
it means something 11.57$ per gallon thank for the "sanction" against Russia it work very well against ...our self


For bunkering at acceptable price we must now, cross the Mediterranean, to Tunisia ( but Tunisia have not petrol she could also run out) it mean Algeria
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Old 03-10-2022, 09:01 AM   #47
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CC did you use a customs broker? We found a good one in St. Lucia who had contacts of similar folks throughout the eastern Caribbean. Found without using one things would sit and not be released sometimes for days and days. Also found how things were described and what was included in pricing effected fees. Apparently there’s a difference depending upon who is your broker. Also used one out of Miami. She was very helpful in shipping.
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Old 03-10-2022, 09:23 AM   #48
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CC did you use a customs broker? We found a good one in St. Lucia who had contacts of similar folks throughout the eastern Caribbean. Found without using one things would sit and not be released sometimes for days and days. Also found how things were described and what was included in pricing effected fees. Apparently there’s a difference depending upon who is your broker. Also used one out of Miami. She was very helpful in shipping.
We used a Customs broker in a few places, like, Panama. But for the most part, you needed to find “the Guy” who knew a Guy who’s cousin knew the girl……you get the point. We were in Southern Mexico and needed a new Exhaust Hose for the main. First we had to find the “Mechanic” to remove and replace the Hose, his cousin knew a guy in Southern California who found the hose. Then we needed a guy to get it across the border down to Ensenada to the Airport. He had a guy to get it on a plane down south, then the mechanic drove 150 miles to pick it up. Then his little brother was needed to get in the back of the engine room to help line up the hose to the bulkhead coupler. That one hose was 3 times more to replace than in the US. Then we had to sit in a marina for 3 weeks for that repair. Thank God, we had taco stands and Cold Cervesa’s for that one, LOL!
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Old 03-10-2022, 04:00 PM   #49
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I know fuel prices are going up fast in last week or so, but the last time I was out of the house last week, on road diesel had jumped to 4.70USD. I think the highest I paid in the past was around 4.50USD. I guess I should check my log book....

Anyway, depending on what price you want to use as a starting point, diesel has gone up by 25% in the last few weeks or so.

Does that 25% increase hurt? ...
I quoteth myself.

Had to leave the house to day. Last week diesel was up to 4.70 USD....

Today, I saw road diesel at 5.00, 5.10, and 5.30 USD. So around a 34% increase in the last week or so.

But it still depends on how much fuel one uses to determine how bad the price rise hurts.

Later,
Dan
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Old 03-11-2022, 07:51 AM   #50
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We rolled this way. Got a price from Budget Marine or island water ways. Then surfed net to get a price in the US. Usually US price was a fraction. So bought it using her as US agent so her shipping address. She then arranged shipping using local customs agent as shipping address. We’d go to C&I office with local agent and pick up the part. Always “yacht in transit “. That usually saved about a third of the total cost and meant we got it up to a week earlier.
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Old 05-25-2022, 11:56 AM   #51
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I agree with Wifey B that if you average all boats, 100 hours is probably in the ballpark. Individual use however will vary wildly from that average.
Now I'm bracing for the "all hours aren't the same" responses. "An hour at 1500 RPM isn't the same as an hour at 3000 RPM!!! It really depends on how fast you're going. The real question is how many nm you travel. This post is irrelevant!!!"

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Old 05-25-2022, 12:09 PM   #52
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That looks like it could be a useful tool if it could be used for boats under 80 feet. I realize its entire raison d' etre is for people determining how much their megayacht will cost them, including crew, based on a usage counted in weeks. For the rest of us, not so useful as a calculator.

This, of course, isn't why you posted it. Instead you were encouraging people (rightly) to look at all the line items and be sure they're accounting for them (as applicable to individual situations).

If we could assemble some foundational data on cruising trawlers (sub-74 feet, which, IIRC, is the limit that requires crew), something like this could be constructed. The technical underpinnings here aren't that difficult. The data, on the other hand...
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Old 05-25-2022, 09:23 PM   #53
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The hull shape is generally more slippery at low speeds unless you're comparing to the most efficient of trawlers (like your Willard). For a 40 foot sailboat, 5 - 6+ mpg while motoring is not uncommon. Many 40 foot trawlers won't achieve better than half that unless going much slower than a knot below hull speed.
That’s about the mileage we got with our 42 Catalina sailboat with a 40 hp Yanmar diesel (4 cylinder 4JGBE non turbo).
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Old 05-26-2022, 07:07 AM   #54
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Another variable is use pattern modified by experience. We’re currently on a new to us boat doing ou first transit as mom and pop only. So we use the SeaKeeper more than we will in the future not yet being secure in knowing when it won’t be necessary. That means the genset is on. We are insecure about what weather the boat can handle so have more conservative weather windows. That means we run faster during those favorable windows wanting to make miles during those times. Being on a SD hull we can pretty much ignore tides/currents except for runs like east river/hell gate and tend to do so. This is direct opposition to our prior behavior on the sailboat. We are also more conservative when transiting high traffic areas making more course corrections to maintain distance.
I know our behavior will change in time with more experience and confident in this boat. Through out this first long hop we have not approached the efficiency seen on the engine seatrial done before purchase. Also think personality effects the numbers. Some coming from long distance sailboat travel might tend to want more reverse so be much lighter on the throttle and tolerant of slower speeds. Others coming from center consoles or other planing hulls may push it more. Some may be more concerned about seeing weather. Others more secure in thei boat and themselves.
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Old 05-26-2022, 02:59 PM   #55
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Another variable is use pattern modified by experience. We’re currently on a new to us boat doing ou first transit as mom and pop only. So we use the SeaKeeper more than we will in the future not yet being secure in knowing when it won’t be necessary. That means the genset is on. We are insecure about what weather the boat can handle so have more conservative weather windows. That means we run faster during those favorable windows wanting to make miles during those times. Being on a SD hull we can pretty much ignore tides/currents except for runs like east river/hell gate and tend to do so. This is direct opposition to our prior behavior on the sailboat. We are also more conservative when transiting high traffic areas making more course corrections to maintain distance.
I know our behavior will change in time with more experience and confident in this boat. Through out this first long hop we have not approached the efficiency seen on the engine seatrial done before purchase. Also think personality effects the numbers. Some coming from long distance sailboat travel might tend to want more reverse so be much lighter on the throttle and tolerant of slower speeds. Others coming from center consoles or other planing hulls may push it more. Some may be more concerned about seeing weather. Others more secure in thei boat and themselves.
Wifey B: Or you may find out you really like faster?

I think there's also an attitude. Do your numbers and budget and history simply reflect what you choose to do or do you manage costs to try to hit targets. Savings may require sacrifice. Now if you can make those sacrifices without feeling like you sacrificed, then that's perfection.
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Old 05-27-2022, 03:15 PM   #56
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One thing that no one discuss much, or at least in this thread anyway, when comparing the cost of sail to power and crusing in general, is the price of maintaining rigging and sails. It is quite significant, enough to offset quite a bit of the additional fuel cost of a slow, economical cruising powerboat.


In my experience (I've sailed a good bit, but would not call myself a sailor) sailors think they sail a LOT more than they actually do, they run their motors probably three times as many hours as they sail without them. Especially if you include the hours many sailors run their engines to charge batteries. Yes, the motors are generally smaller, burn less fuel and are cheaper to maintain, but it still costs money to run them, perhaps 1/2 the cost of running and taking care of a cruising powerboat diesel.


But then they have sails, running rigging, standing rigging, furlers, spars that need painting, wind instruments, winches, etc. All of which are expensive to keep up and astronomical to replace.


Anyway, it is one of the hidden costs of cruising that is seldom brought up by sailors on the CF. The wind is far from free.
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Old 05-27-2022, 03:24 PM   #57
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The wind is far from free.
Wifey B: What? 9 mph in NYC today, how much do I have to pay and to whom? Next you'll be telling me the wind kills birds and causes cancer.



Sorry, couldn't resist taking the one sentence out of context.
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Old 05-27-2022, 04:26 PM   #58
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One thing that no one discuss much, or at least in this thread anyway, when comparing the cost of sail to power and crusing in general, is the price of maintaining rigging and sails. It is quite significant, enough to offset quite a bit of the additional fuel cost of a slow, economical cruising powerboat.
...

Anyway, it is one of the hidden costs of cruising that is seldom brought up by sailors on the CF. The wind is far from free.
Yep. The wind is free. The cost is in catching the wind.

The cost of sailing vs power does pop up on CF but it might take some digging in past conversations or in a new one. The Dashews, and I am pretty sure Leonard/Starzinger, mention that sailing cost more than power.

Since the usual replacement time of sails and standing rigging can be around a decade or more, it is easy to not count that expense. I suspect the cost of running rigging, which happens more frequently, but not as often as filling up with fuel, is often not included in the cost of sailing.

The Morgan's Cloud website has a expense spreadsheet, https://www.morganscloud.com/2014/07...ging-sailboat/, which is behind a paywall but worth the cost. The article mentions that the spreadsheet work for theexpense of a displacement power boat as well as sailboats.
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Old 05-27-2022, 05:04 PM   #59
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Hours is a key number for service and consumables. That plus fixed costs is your budget except for discretionary expenses.
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Old 05-27-2022, 05:44 PM   #60
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One thing that no one discuss much, or at least in this thread anyway, when comparing the cost of sail to power and crusing in general, is the price of maintaining rigging and sails. It is quite significant, enough to offset quite a bit of the additional fuel cost of a slow, economical cruising powerboat.
.
It's a cost I have always taken into consideration

A sailing cat to give consistent 8 knot speeds and give us the comfort and load carrying ability that we enjoy now would be 60ft+ (it still would not carry the load)

Rig and deck gear alone for that would cost more than our current vessel
Sail costs would provide a decade or more worth of big fuel miles by which time the sails and rigging would need replacing as well.


A sailing mono would need to be near 80+ ft
Same numbers applies

Add into that the fact that it would be a bloody handfull to sail short handed
And initial cost of vessel would be 10 X and more to purchase
And a powered vessel makes perfect sense.

Of course if we were young and loved the Luddite caveman existence we would still have the first 10m cat we built.
Blow up air mattress and 2 X 25 litre water containers
Fold up deck chair
Lots of tinned tuna and rice.
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