Long Range Cruising - How big is too big?

[HarebrainedScheme]

When you get your boat and then shove off for that wonderful boating trip,
at the age where you might not want to spend "working" on this boat, and the one person who can and will have to manage everything by one's self, then there's the compatibility thing... getting down and out on each other where things said and done in the heat of the moment can last forever, and then there's the possibility of being robbed... by officials somewhere that are really anal and you're a long way from home, then there's the possibility of really getting sick ... I mean really sick, having to think... "what's for dinner, over and over again," can be old news after a while.... heck... I was on a troop ship for three freak'n weeks and I still hate SPAM and watching somebody sling hash. Then there's staying in the same clothes for a week or two .. straight, being with somebody that hasn't showered in five days, sunburns are a pain, along with a cold and sniffles that just won't clear up, even worse being with someone that just won't blow their freak'n nose for hours on end, or how about forgetting your wallet, watch, sunglasses, hat, someplace that you just left .. oh, about three hours out to sea, then there's the sea birds that'll crap all over you and your mate just when you settled in for a nice lunch on an open deck. Oh... by the way... have a nice trip.

Might as well just stay safe and comfy on the couch.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

Maybe the OP would find this boat inline with what he is dreaming of:
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1962-custom-research-yacht-7174659/

Yes, absolutely. And I very well go that route in a few years then just focus on freshening up/cosmetics/electronics.

 

[Lepke]

Is there any evidence that modern electronic diesels having reliability problems?

My Ford diesel was towed 3 times last year. Twice for the same problem. Crank position sensor that hid the 3rd problem. Other sensors that failed in the last year were speed sensor and back pressure sensor. Everything is tied into the computer so some sensors effect others. The speed sensor screws up the shifting and the speedometer quits. I now have a spare everything electronic, bought the diagnostic software. The parts have to be Ford, other brands fail quicker or never work. And I've been repairing and rebuilding diesels since the 1960s. If I was young, I'd put in a Detroit.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

I don't think length matters except for dock space. Commercial fuel docks are easy to tie up. And you don't want to buy fuel from a marina anyway. I've been mostly on the water since 1961 and my smallest and first power boat was 65 feet. If you're going to anchor, travel the ocean, the bigger, the better as far as comfort, accommodations, and fuel storage.
Building a boat or rebuilding a large boat is a project needing 100s if not 1000s of hours. I have built many vessels. Mostly commercial fishing, as a yard owner - several, part of a building crew - many, as a 2 man team - 3, and alone - 2. You can't imagine the hours needed. Plan on 10+ hours a day for years. And the equipment needed to do a proper job in a timely fashion costs big $.
My advice is buy a commercial fishing vessel. It's already built for the ocean. Most have several tons of concrete and lead below the fish hole. They come with all the basic system needs, main engine, generator, anchoring system, water and fuel tanks, etc. Heavy things you add should be as low in the hull as possible. A single main is better for long ocean voyages, but I traveled from the West Coast tuna fishing to 1500km NW of Midway Island with a twin screw boat. At the time there was a tuna buy boat at Midway we could refuel from. And the tuna paid my fuel bill, diesel was about 30¢/gallon on the mainland.

"My advice is buy a commercial fishing vessel." That's exactly my plan...just an older, ugly one that I can bring back to life over the course of 9 years.

Thanks for your specific experiences and recommendations.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

I watched the movie Sea Gypsies the other day, really enjoyed it. One quote comes to mind, "Adventure is just poor planning". Well maybe actually there is another one from the movie as well, "When EVERYTHING goes wrong, that's when adventure starts." Regardless of your opinion, a worthwhile watch for just about 90 minutes long.

I've seen it! It's a good watch. Thanks!

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

It’s already been mentioned here that commercial fishing vessels must set on their lines or they will roll your eye teeth out light and yacht conversions are LIGHT. Most of the West coast fishing hulls I’ve know running empty will roll slow but snap back fast and that’s hard on the crew. Take a West coast limit seiner for instance say a fifty ton boat. That means a large refrigerated or ice hold capable of 10000 # pounds of catch to but her down on her lines max. Even 40000# is essentially light and most of these boats can work you to death coming home empty. Think about what it would take in trim ballast and conversion furniture and fittings to make up the difference. Not to mention all the mechanical systems deck equipment etc you’ll need to remove to gain living and yachting spaces and the weight issue is going the wrong way. With seiners and other types the engine room is normally mid ships and even sometimes farther forward than that to allow for the hold. I’ve worked on many 50 to 70’ seiners with three piece shafts and a run of spring bearings and couplings that need service all the time.

Offshore oil patch supply or ‘ Rig Tenders ‘ are usually triple screw with lots of fuel and certainly can run offshore. A good friend of mine delivered these from Morgan City, LA to Africa for a couple of years and they can do it alright but. Everything from machinery spaces, accommodations and bridge are all the way forward cause aft the hulls are sub-divided into a series of fuel, water and drilling mud tanks. Not just a few but lots of them. The big flat work and pipe deck is without safe high bulwarks as handling drill pipe and equipment needs heavy round rails. My experience with these boats is a slow turn of speed is not comfortable these boats are almost always run at speed and that’s what they are designed and built to do.

A possible choice would be a hydrographic vessel where accommodations and labs are more easily converted. The ones I’ve seen for sale over the years are well used but with a good audio gauge and mechanical inspection you find a keeper. Just spitballing but something to think about.

Rick

Great info! I appreciate your experience and recommendations. A tired research vessel would definitely be a much easier prospect.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

We’re cruising FL East Coast, Cuba, Bahamas and actually FL West Coast with our Dutch made ALTENA Blue Water Trawler. It’s 49‘ , 16‘ beam and draws 5‘.
The steel hull ,combined with a strong keel and skeg keels to protect rudders and props, is amazingly solid and all the ICW or Gulf of Mexico shallows doesn’t affect us at all.
But keep in mind, steel is corroding fast in this salty, sunny and humid environment in the subtropics and tropics. It’s a steady project fixing all the dents and spots and prevent them from further corrosion.
I do recommend Dutch steel hulls because they collected experience over decades and some of them, including mine, are CE-A certified and made for long range crossings.
So keep an eye on the Dutch or European markets. You rarely find those boats over here.
Good luck, Jan

Great info, thanks!

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

Remember the 20 meter rule. Many countries require a pilot. There is a charge. We have been cruising a 60' steel trawler over 20 years now. Long Rane twin engines. When we we were building the boat, lots of "friends" told us they visit for a week or two. Too include our kids, I can count on two hands the time we have had visitors more than a day or two. Just two of us for 98% of the cruising. We learned to handle 60 feet on our own. Make room for a dinghy or two. We carry a 15' deep V, amazing ride, and a 10' inflatable to run on the beach. Anchoring not an issue.. 7' draft. We have places around the world.

You're doing exactly what I plan to. Thanks for the personal experiences.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

So we somewhat fit your mold, a custom 55’ steel trawler, spend the last few years refitting and just recently shoved off for our retirement cruising.

First of all, we love it and your concept, who’d of thunk that? ?

A couple of opinions, too big is variable but our 55 is about the most we’d like to handle. Full time cruising is also full time boat maintenance, the miles take their toll.

Second, we also like to anchor out but find, in reality, that we need to be at the dock at times. Provisioning, repairs and most importantly, inland travels make anchoring less palatable. Still, we like to keep a 75/25 split to anchor vs. dock.

Steel is real, best choice IMHO.

Thanks for the info and have a great trip!

 

[Simi 60]

IMO Mako's post hit the nail on the head. At 50' and 40 tons two people can just about manage. Storage should be enough and 50 ton travelifts are common. My own boat is heavier and required that the anchor rode and fuel be offloaded before being moved by a 50 ton lift. Extra work but saved $$$ because we could be hauled at a regular Marina not one specifically for super yachts.

Some, not all yards have decent sized travellifts
1 lift does many vs having 2 or 3 to do various sized vessels

And for us, it's not a weight thing but number of straps to spread the load

For example, we currently get our 60 tonner lifted with a 250 tonne 6 strap for the same price others charge for a 50 tonne lift with 2 straps.

We have even come out on 8 strap 300 tonne lift for very similar coin.

 

[ranger58sb]

We've only run electronic engines as our coastal boating started in 2012 and with 2012 built boats. Only have run common rail. I think we missed the period that scares many of you and that is when the new generation of engines first hit. Even then I suspect as much of the problem was lack of familiarity and experience as the equipment. It was new to everyone.

We haven't had any issues and I'd venture a guess that our electronic have far outperformed most old mechanical. It's just some are more comfortable with mechanical.

Not me and not on the ocean. Electronic engines are great when they're new and all the sensors and circuit boards are new. But then they start to fail, and if you can't troubleshoot or carry spares then you're on your own. Cars fail all the time. But a tow truck is close by.

Is there any evidence that modern electronic diesels having reliability problems?

I don't remember seeing much on boatdiesel about electronic engine faults. What I remember, especially about engines with known "issues," it's usually something about the cooling systems.

Frequent aftercooler replacements required, manifolds warping, etc.

I've only looked at commentary on a few certain engines though, on a handful electronic, not a wide range...

-Chris

 

[rslifkin]

My Ford diesel was towed 3 times last year. Twice for the same problem. Crank position sensor that hid the 3rd problem. Other sensors that failed in the last year were speed sensor and back pressure sensor. Everything is tied into the computer so some sensors effect others. The speed sensor screws up the shifting and the speedometer quits. I now have a spare everything electronic, bought the diagnostic software. The parts have to be Ford, other brands fail quicker or never work. And I've been repairing and rebuilding diesels since the 1960s. If I was young, I'd put in a Detroit.

I think you just hit on the key point. If you have a system that either you or someone else (depending on your level of DIY ability) can't diagnose effectively, it's a problem. But if you can diagnose a problem well enough, it's all good.



And of course, some electronic implementations will be more reliable and simpler to work on than others. I wouldn't want a brand new design, but if the electronics package on the engine is used by commercial guys for a few years and they're happy with it and haven't had issues keeping them working, I wouldn't be scared of it.

 

[twistedtree]

And of course, some electronic implementations will be more reliable and simpler to work on than others. I wouldn't want a brand new design, but if the electronics package on the engine is used by commercial guys for a few years and they're happy with it and haven't had issues keeping them working, I wouldn't be scared of it.

I think this is a big factor for marine engines. They don't make it into boats until they have been running in trucks, tractors, and construction equipment for a long time. So things like the Ford sensor problem get worked out. It doesn't mean they are perfect, but the typical first-year stuff has been addressed. I have a diesel truck too and it's much more bleeding edge than my similar vintage marine engine. And I have had sensor & DEF system issues on the truck too. Thankfully there is no after treatment required on the marine engine.

 

[rslifkin]

I think this is a big factor for marine engines. They don't make it into boats until they have been running in trucks, tractors, and construction equipment for a long time. So things like the Ford sensor problem get worked out. It doesn't mean they are perfect, but the typical first-year stuff has been addressed. I have a diesel truck too and it's much more bleeding edge than my similar vintage marine engine. And I have had sensor & DEF system issues on the truck too. Thankfully there is no after treatment required on the marine engine.

The electronic controls on marine engines are often a bit simpler and more primitive as well and not the same as they use on the road engines.

I figure if I can get a part shipped to me somewhere, can get my hands on the software or scan tool to talk to the computer and can get enough of the diagnostics and service documentation, I can fix it. With all of the right diagnostics tools and info, you can pretty much just ask the engine what hurts and it'll tell you. Trying to diagnose the electronics without some of that info can be an exercise in futility and parts swapping unless it's a very simple system.

 

[Hippocampus]

Simi - this

“Generally, 50 ft imho is going to mean frequent marina visits due to lack of storage, refrigeration space etc
Marinas cost $$$”

hasn’t been our experience cruising full time on 46’.
First many people put in a second freezer. Even our currently definitely coastal boat has one. Second, most cruisers anchor out and only pick up moorings or slips when there’s no other choice. We made our own water so rarely went in for food. Most commonly for fruit and fresh baked goods. Going to an actual supermarket occurred once every 2 to 4 weeks. Even those trips where done by dinghy and very rarely involved being in a slip. If in a slip it was for a different reason.Fuel stops were touch and go. Your experience is honored but it is not congruent to my own. IMHO don’t think if you’re on a boat designed for long term cruising that size has much to do with it. Many boats ~50’ do high lat cruising. A situation where food accessibility is very limited.

 

[BandB]

I don't remember seeing much on boatdiesel about electronic engine faults. What I remember, especially about engines with known "issues," it's usually something about the cooling systems.

Frequent aftercooler replacements required, manifolds warping, etc.

I've only looked at commentary on a few certain engines though, on a handful electronic, not a wide range...

-Chris

And I think you're referring to some very specific CAT issues for which they were infamous. Take care of the aftercoolers or have serious issue engines. Specific schedules that those who failed to follow, ended up regretting.

 

[darkside]

Modern diesel engines are very, very reliable.
That said, for a mechanical engine if you can supply it with clean, air free fuel and get it to turn over, almost always it will run.
If it doesn't you can usually work out why not pretty quick.

For an electronic engine you need all of the above plus a lot of sensors, controllers, wiring and an ECU to be happy, then it will run.
If it doesn't you may need a diagnostic computer, and someone who knows how to use it, to troubleshoot the problem.

I have had an ECU fail on a boat. We came home on the other engine (about 70 miles). If you do choose electronic engines make sure there is a limp mode for minor problems. Ours did not and the engine just stopped, rather than idle home.

 

[Simi 60]

Simi - this

“Generally, 50 ft imho is going to mean frequent marina visits due to lack of storage, refrigeration space etc
Marinas cost $$$”

hasn’t been our experience cruising full time on 46’.
First many people put in a second freezer. Even our currently definitely coastal boat has one. Second, most cruisers anchor out and only pick up moorings or slips when there’s no other choice. We made our own water so rarely went in for food. Most commonly for fruit and fresh baked goods. Going to an actual supermarket occurred once every 2 to 4 weeks. Even those trips where done by dinghy and very rarely involved being in a slip. If in a slip it was for a different reason.Fuel stops were touch and go. Your experience is honored but it is not congruent to my own. IMHO don’t think if you’re on a boat designed for long term cruising that size has much to do with it. Many boats ~50’ do high lat cruising. A situation where food accessibility is very limited.

I did use the word "generally"
Based on 40 years of observation on the water it's "generally" the under 50 fters who spend more time in marinas.

Bigger boats carry more fuel, water, provisions and.....can handle shitty weather better due to weight so are better suited as a full time cruising vessel.
Of course that is my opinion (-;

 

[ranger58sb]

And I think you're referring to some very specific CAT issues for which they were infamous. Take care of the aftercoolers or have serious issue engines. Specific schedules that those who failed to follow, ended up regretting.

Yes, that's one of them. The QSM-11 is another, also manageable by following the guidelines.

Neither situation had much to do with electronics, though...

-Chris

 

[long-cours.62]

Few year ago we towed with our two "no electronic" Perkins 6 cylinder during 7 hour a nice Mocchi Sonic 19 m with two Mann who decide to...stop at the middle of nothing, after 3 days the Man team had not found for witch reason this engine stop and can't restart them...


Another time on a nice motor boat a CAT stop and can't be restart , the team of Cat can't find the problem , luckily a "freelance" specialist of CAT was hired and he had previously the same problem on another CAT:some "bakelite" cover of an sensor broken.


I don't find confident with "electronic" engine because I can't manage all potentials problem ...AND I have C 12 on board

 

[BandB]

Few year ago we towed with our two "no electronic" Perkins 6 cylinder during 7 hour a nice Mocchi Sonic 19 m with two Mann who decide to...stop at the middle of nothing, after 3 days the Man team had not found for witch reason this engine stop and can't restart them...


Another time on a nice motor boat a CAT stop and can't be restart , the team of Cat can't find the problem , luckily a "freelance" specialist of CAT was hired and he had previously the same problem on another CAT:some "bakelite" cover of an sensor broken.


I don't find confident with "electronic" engine because I can't manage all potentials problem ...AND I have C 12 on board

Two points you make that merit further comment. First, "a few years ago." We're no longer in those days and the early years of the switch to electronics. Second, "I can't manage", which says you're not experienced with the electronic engines. One thing overlooked about the electronic engines is that with both MAN and MTU, we have remote analysis. The electronics highlight potential problems. I know CAT has similar, although we don't have any CAT engines. Cummins just announced a system last year. I do not know it's status.

Electronic engines do have a lot of onboard data and even in severe instances take preventive measures on their own to avoid any catastrophic failure. Although I'm definitely not an engineer or mechanic, I'd still feel a bit lost without all the data provided by today's electronic engines. Much is what you're use to. However, at one time, mechanics had to pursue problems based on sound and instinct and experience, while today they can be pursued based on data.

 

[long-cours.62]

Two points you make that merit further comment. First, "a few years ago." We're no longer in those days and the early years of the switch to electronics. Second, "I can't manage", which says you're not experienced with the electronic engines. One thing overlooked about the electronic engines is that with both MAN and MTU, we have remote analysis. The electronics highlight potential problems. I know CAT has similar, although we don't have any CAT engines. Cummins just announced a system last year. I do not know it's status.

Electronic engines do have a lot of onboard data and even in severe instances take preventive measures on their own to avoid any catastrophic failure. Although I'm definitely not an engineer or mechanic, I'd still feel a bit lost without all the data provided by today's electronic engines. Much is what you're use to. However, at one time, mechanics had to pursue problems based on sound and instinct and experience, while today they can be pursued based on data.

By "I can't manage" it means I can't repair electronic component or find electronic problem if even team of Man and or CAT are not able to found the problem after few day imagine for us ...

 

[bowball]

50'odd, is a good size manageable by two people with space for guests and not so expensive. It starts to max out at 70', probably tops 80' if there is just two of you. Some good automation helps make life livable at that size. 55 foot and above allows for three cabins so you can take friends and crew for a longer passage, just a couple on smaller jollies. For ocean crossing it's more about hydrodynamics than fuel capacities. Displacement hulls have the types of range you need, planing or semi planing hulls just drink too much fuel per NM. On that basis expect and come to appreciate life in the slow(er) lane. Have fun.

Agreed.

I’m at 55’ (hull, 60’ overall) and I find it generally quite manageable, even single handed (though not with 20 plus knot cross winds in tight slips). I think I am expecting a 65’ (70’ overall) next spring from the same manufacturer , and given its new systems and greater mass, I’ve found it actually easier around docking. While I strongly prefer not to single hand, it hasn’t been an issue since I most often anchor or have a 28’ wide slip,. Size wise, the 55’ is great for one or two couples, but I wanted a bit more beam when the second couple is on board. However, 55’ is a perfect size in many ways. I personally wouldn’t want to live aboard anything much smaller (given my 16’ beam) , but that’s everyone’s own personal decision.

 

[BandB]

By "I can't manage" it means I can't repair electronic component or find electronic problem if even team of Man and or CAT are not able to found the problem after few day imagine for us ...

All I can say is "wrong team" as we've never had an issue that wasn't basically immediately analyzed.

 

[READY]

Generally, 50 ft imho is going to mean frequent marina visits due to lack of storage, refrigeration space etc
Marinas cost $$$

60ft+ and there is plenty of storage and refrigeration space
Can stay out indefinately.

I don't think you have to go to 60 feet just to store provisions.
Every boat is different but my Hatteras 48 LRC has a full size fridge in the galley. Freezer in the galley. On the "boat deck", aft of the flybridge I have a deep chest freezer and a huge chest refrigerator. Two people could eat well for a very long, long time!

 

[long-cours.62]

It means lot of "bad team" because a "pusher" for barge behind us was fitted with new Volvo engine , they got lot of trouble with electric part with on error code even unknown by the...factory !
Man
Cat
Volvo

and I have some example also with MTU...

 

[ksanders]

I don't think you have to go to 60 feet just to store provisions.
Every boat is different but my Hatteras 48 LRC has a full size fridge in the galley. Freezer in the galley. On the "boat deck", aft of the flybridge I have a deep chest freezer and a huge chest refrigerator. Two people could eat well for a very long, long time!

People will talk themselves into needing a boat so large that the dream dies due to their perception that it is unobtainable.

I'm going to share a little knowledge from a guy that recently started activly cruising as a lifestyle.

It's not the boat holding you back guys, it's your life holding you back.

You can go cruising in any boat that you own. I met a guy cruising in a $5,000 sail boat.

You need to get the things in your life arranged to allow you to go cruising. Until then it's just a dream.

So... Pick a boat that you can afford, whatever your budget. At the same time start arranging your life so that you can actually go cruising.

 

[Hippocampus]

Go small go now has been the Lin and Larry mantra. Still think. Two staterooms. 7 berths 4 which work as singles on passage. Two heads. Enough room for 3 spares of everything key. Enough room for one month of food. A watermaker.
The above fits into a 45-50’ boat of “standard beam”. That’s big enough. Would need 58-65’ if ultra lean.
With tankage you chase your tail. Need progressively more by tonnage. But personally would accept 2500nm at 3/4 hull speed.
Biggest deal for long term cruising is KISS whenever you can.

 

[Ken E.]

HBS, on your idea to covert a 100' supply boat, like the ones that are used for oil rigs... There are several of them in service in the PNW as whale watching and party boats. These are usually triple and even quad- screw 2-cycle Detroits. Lots of fuel to run these and as mentioned, not very suitable for ocean crossing. Also, by the time you spend the money the convert one of these properly, you could buy a purpose-built blue water cruiser.

 

[mvweebles]

People will talk themselves into needing a boat so large [EDIT: "and/or complex"] that the dream dies due to their perception that it is unobtainable.
........
So... Pick a boat that you can afford, whatever your budget. At the same time start arranging your life so that you can actually go cruising.

Amen (added a modest tweak)!!!! Getting life in order is, by far, the more difficult for me.

Back in the old Trawlers & Trawlering days, there was a guy who cruised a Westsail 32 sailboat. His signature block was "A small boat and a suitcase full of money beats a big boat tied to a bank."

Peter