Life rafts?

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You can still use engine for propulsion will pumping bilge. You are doing it because the bilge pump cannot get ahead of water coming in so not likely to run dry, but yes watch it. Only for emergencies.

You can, but if I'm dealing with a flooding emergency, I'm probably not up on plane. So figure I'm at no more than 30 percent of max rpm. Which means much less water flow making the engine as pump less useful.
 
It would not be the first time someone put a Y valve in the engine coolant inlet line as part of their dewatering plan.
 
Based on my 2017 Alaska trip:

Gumby suit, and practice putting it on.
PLB
Ditch bag
Extra radios, Garmin InReach
Portland Pudgy with oars, sail, electrical system, solar charger, boarding ladder
(Can also be ordered with self-deploying life raft canopy)
Sea anchor for boat and for Pudgy

When on the Inside Passage, with two exceptions you are never that far from land - maybe 2-12 nm.

The concern is staying warm and getting to shore, where there is typically ample water, firewood etc.
Different priorities than ocean cruising
 
So I have:

4 person canister life raft with hydrostatic release.
A dinghy
A cat 1 EPIRB
A cat 2 EPIRB
A PLB on my PFD
An Inreach

While I consider myself a coastal cruiser, I've crossed the SE corner of the Gulf of Mexico, cruised in Lake Erie, Huron, Michigan and Superior. All of these waters are big enough that survival equipment can be the difference between a good and bad outcome.

Ted
 
OC pretty comparable to my thinking. Only changes are may go with a handheld satphone with permanent antenna for use on the boat instead of the InReach. And a Winslow valise instead of the canister. Boat came with three Gumbys which we’ll keep.

You’ve been on big water and places isolated enough there’s no cell towers, or others in vhf range. Also cold waters. Think there’s many times the bluewater/coastal distinction doesn’t apply. The type of cruising you describe is one.
 
My advice to boaters, once you leave the dock, you are in the wilderness.

I have seen medical care in crowded, busy tourist towns take nearly an hour to get on scene of accidents only 200 yards from where the ambulance finally parked.

The same for USCG and assistance towers.

I know it's not the same, but even going out. For a spin around the bay should have a little more planning than the car trip to the convenience store 1/2 mile away.

Things like wind or fog can slow rescue/assistance down immensely on the water. People used to give me attitude some beautiful but windy days about the time it took to get there, then manuever safely to get them of a bad lee shore.

People who get it, will probably get the right equipment to do the job and probably never need it all. It's the rest of the gang on the water that I spent 2 careers helping out.
 
This is. A great post and some good input. In regards to rafts, never had one and not aure if i ever will feel i need one. I do go 50-100 miles off, but its in warm weather and warm water. I have a smaller boat, so having all that weight and cost does not add up for me.

I am taking a trip from NY to Bermuda in my boat and i have a 10 foot hardshell on the deck. Very light dink and easily deployable over the stern in 30 seconds. (Even in bad seas, its a matter of unclipping and pushing off deck. My boat is smaller and lower to the water than a trawler)

With a big ole boat like yours, being costal, and if in warmer waters, i would forgo the life raft. (But maybe not if i had 3 young kids on board and was going to be taking a 6 month cruise)

A very long time ago, i worked during school for a group making artificial reefs. We would strip boats to make them environmentally friendly and sink them. I was stunned how long it took them to sink. Even a 30 Catalina sailboat, with all its through hulls knocked out, took several hours to sink. (We were learning back then, so we learned better techniques, lol)

In any case, valet or canister, its whatever you are best trained on (and physically capable of.)

If i did have one, i would go canister to try to avoid more steps in an emergency
 
Agree to disagree.
Valise you pick up and throw over the side. You’ve already tied it to strong point before leaving. 5 seconds if that. They have both hydrostatic and manual deployment. A canister will deploy when it’s 4’ under water by its hydrostatic trigger. If it’s mounted on the boat deck or fly you’re swimming until the boats under water if your counting on the hydrostatic trigger. Deploying a canister without injuring yourself or the raft manually can be difficult. That’s why frequently they are positioned on a rail vertically so there’s a straight drop into the water. With either canister or valise careful analysis of where to place it in view of successful quick deployment is part of the decision.
I’ve been in a hard shell in a seaway. Something I’d studiously avoid in the future. You’re a cockleshell bouncing around. That was attached to the mothership to attend to a fouled thru hull which was above the waterline. Positioned the boat to be to Windward of the dinghy. Still miserable. There’s a reason that the hard shell Portland pudgy has a canopy when used as a raft and a sea anchor. Small hard shells swamp, are easily overcome and also flip. Thinks you’re being very optimistic relying on a 10’ hard shell.
A boat will scuttle much faster with hatches and companionway open. Much like a car with windows open or closed. Guess you found that out. Also greater speed the farther the hole(s) are underwater. On a sailboat there’s usually only one hole deep down. The engine intake. Being a auxiliary screw it’s usually pretty small. Only when partially sunk will the others be enough underwater to have enough pressure on them to materially increase flow.
 
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Per stealing either a canister or valise, I cable and lock mine my valise when in port. Granted, cables are easily cut but, better than nothing.

I am surprised by all the food etc they can get into that valise.
Mine is a hydrostatic release.
 
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Agree to disagree.
Valise you pick up and throw over the side. You’ve already tied it to strong point before leaving. 5 seconds if that. They have both hydrostatic and manual deployment. A canister will deploy when it’s 4’ under water by its hydrostatic trigger. If it’s mounted on the boat deck or fly you’re swimming until the boats under water if your counting on the hydrostatic trigger. Deploying a canister without injuring yourself or the raft manually can be difficult. That’s why frequently they are positioned on a rail vertically so there’s a straight drop into the water. With either canister or valise careful analysis of where to place it in view of successful quick deployment is part of the decision.
I’ve been in a hard shell in a seaway. Something I’d studiously avoid in the future. You’re a cockleshell bouncing around. That was attached to the mothership to attend to a fouled thru hull which was above the waterline. Positioned the boat to be to Windward of the dinghy. Still miserable. There’s a reason that the hard shell Portland pudgy has a canopy when used as a raft and a sea anchor. Small hard shells swamp, are easily overcome and also flip. Thinks you’re being very optimistic relying on a 10’ hard shell.

As far ask “agree to not agree”, what are you talking about?!

Hippo, you asked for opinions in your original post. I provided mine. I did not ask for your opinion about anything, lol.

In regards to the boat sinking, every thruhull was knocked out. Transducer, toilet, exhaust etc….. thats a lot of holes with 1+ diameter. And yes, of course, the hatches were open. You can simply do a calculation of the number of holes, their respective water flow and the volume of the hull. (Essentially how long to fill hull)

To be more frank, its not the equipment type, location, etc….. its more about the person that operated the boat. Ive seen very smart captains lose it when things hit the fan. If you want to know what you should do, go look in the mirror. Lol. (Now thats an unsolicited opinion, lol)
 
Three boats ago, I bought Winslow's offshore "light" version and got it with the pelican case. At the time we had a 25' fishing boat, and it was the only raft that would store easily, and was light enough that my wife could lift it at all. I like that it is way lighter and easier to handle than other options. The other thing I like is that I am a bit cheap, and feel pretty good about pushing the repacking intervals a bit since it is stored inside the boat, in a completely air sealed case, which I would also guess would help with flare reliability. Unless there is some materials issue, I don't see why it wouldn't last for many repack cycles. It does suck that Winslow does not have any local dealers that can repack it, so it has to be shipped, but they made that very easy and arranged the special shipping for the compressed gas when I did it last. My new boat came with a raft in a canister on the back rail, that is about a year overdue for a repack and has been outdoors in the tropics its whole life. I am trying to decide if I want to repack it, replace it, just use the Winslow raft I already have that is still current, or carry two rafts.
 
I carry a life raft in a canister upright in the corner of the cockpit where it can be deployed immediately.

Instead of a gumby suit, which renders you useless to further accomplish anything I have a Mustang cold weather work suit. This is what the USCG crew members on motor lifeboats wear
 
I don't think you want to put on a Gumby suit as a precautionary step, for exactly the reasons you mention. They pretty much disable you from doing anything. I think you want to put them on when the next step is into the water.


It's also worth a few words about how canister rafts work, because I think it's often misunderstood. I know I didn't understand it for a long time.



Both canister and valise rafts alike have a painter line that is (or should be) tied to the boat. When you manually release the hold down strap on a canister, it's doesn't inflate. When you shove it overboard, it doesn't necessarily inflate either. It inflates when you yank on the painter. Now as part of the flight overboard the painter might get tugged, but it's the tug that inflates it, not release from the cradle, and not contact with the water.


Similarly, when the canister hydrostatic release is activated, it just cuts the hold down strap, just as if you release it yourself. And similarly, the raft doesn't inflate. The canister just floats to the surface. The release activates at a certain depth, so it will only activate as the boat sinks. It's a last resort to set it free in the event you were unable to shove it overboard on your own.


Now you have a sinking boat and a floating canister with the painter tied to the sinking boat. When that line draws tight, it deploys the raft just as if you yanked on the painter yourself. The painter is designed to break before the boat can drag the raft underwater, and the raft is now free.


I think one misconception is that the hydrostatic release inflates the raft, and leads people to envision the raft becoming entangled in rigging. It's just the canister trying to float free, so much less likely (but not impossible) to get entangled.
 
While gumby suits are a good idea, I prefer my scuba drysuit and thinsulite underwear. With enough time, I can don the heated vest first, with the external lithium battery bank for some added heat. :)

Ted
 
The time consuming part of donning the gumby is from storage to legs in.

Many crew go that far then tie the arms around their waist to keep their torso, arms and hands free. Not great in small spaces but neither is trying to get a gumby on with just seconds from going in. If you suddenly get thrown in, having the gumby half on makes getting it al. The way on a lot easier. If rough and not even a leg in, it is extraordinarily difficult for those even in shape.

Small boats often roll before they sink, especially if rough.

Once a boat gets enough water in it and you are still not sure you are winning the battle...best if you abandon with a gumby.

Only a gumby can be called a survival suit in frigid waters. Mustangs (immersion suits, work suits, float coats are best suited for slightly cool waters and short immersion times. A shot wetsuit under a mustang was what I wore when starting my USCG flyingcareer, it may more than double your survival time, but it's not really al. That long.
 
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Your insurer is ok with this? Even if going off shore?

It's not a question that has been asked
And, my current cover is for 250nm out, all of Australia Inc Tasmania, all of the year.


Did you read up on the 98 Sydney to Hobart?
Liferafts were snapping attachment ropes and being blown away, cartwheeled and shredded.

I prefer a solid stable tender with additional outer bouyancy foam floatation
Effectively a 8ft wide X 14ft long RIB but without the deflation.
Carry all the gear needed if needed (grab bag)
 
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So end of day you wear mustang , wet suit , Gumby half on and deploy the raft. If boat sinks still think best chance of being viable, foundable and functional is in the raft not in the water.
Have read about fastnet, Sidney Hobart etc. Those reads did effect my thinking for a passage making boat but my original post was focused on a coastal power boat staying within ~50nm of shore in domestic waters.
Would think with a PLB (not personal AIS) a Gumby gives you a good chance of staying alive long enough for rescue to occur. Think personal AIS is way to go for MOB not rescue. Would also think a Mustang would give you enough time to climb into a raft and keep you warm once inside a raft. While giving you additional time to try and save the boat (best outcome). We would wear ours in serious cold when it was bumpy and the concern was overheating if you were working hard.
They say you can’t buy safety but when the floorboards are floating what’s the practical choice for mom and pop coastal cruisers? I’m leaning toward.
Raft ( ocean rated if cruising cold places)
Ships epirb
Two Mustangs with PLB attached. Turn one on at a time once everyone’s in the raft. SAR sees two epirbs (ships and PLB) in the same position they’re more likely to think not a false alarm.
Ditch bag with VHFs.

Is my thinking off? Is this a reasonable outfitting for cruising which will include Washington County Maine, Canadian maritines, Great Lakes and the usual points south?

BTW looked long and hard at buying a Portland Pudgy in hiviz. Beautiful piece of engineering. With the additional options to make it a life raft not inexpensive. Just can’t imagine it staying right side up or being able to flip it once inverted. Life rafts are real small inside. Thought the pudgy was even smaller. Maybe two people inside. Don’t see any dinghy or hard shell as being a reasonable option except in calm waters in warm climates.
 
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Speaking of rafts staying right-side-up, and righting them when flipped, I think ballast bags, or larger ballast bags are part of an ocean rated raft vs coastal. I'm not 100% sure, and it might vary by manufacturer, but I recall that it's true for Viking.


I think you plan sounds good. For what it's worth, I have always viewed the Mustang coats (we have two of them) as something to wear when you aren't planning to go in the water. It's just a convenient combination of a cold weather coat with a life jacket built in.


And on the other hand, a Gumby suit is what you put on when you are definitely going in the water. I have no idea how effectively you can swim or otherwise maneuver with a flotation coat on. Never tried it. Perhaps others have? About all you can do in a Gumby suit is a back stroke, but it's effectively a thick wet suit, and I think the highest survival chance while in the water.
 
Had the experience of putting on a Gumby and think your right TT. At my age and state of fitness once in a Gumby doubt I could get into a raft by myself. I cruise with my wife so having some ability to help myself is important. Given there’s 3 Gumbys we’ll keep them but wear the mustangs and try to save the boat as the first priority. Think as long as the water isn’t frigid they will be enough. Of course the abandon ship protocol is best practiced two ways. Stepping off the mother ship directly into a raft and with a brief period of time in the water in between.
Question remains what to do for a raft? Plastismo offers one that’s half the cost of the Winslow we used in the past. Want to keep the weight <50lbs and the less is better. Viking makes good products but even their coastal is too heavy.
What would you choose?
 
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Have any of you guys had real life experiences getting into a raft from the water?
Not the easiest of thing when I was fit and 20
 
Did it in a pool once and again in calm waters. Yes you’re right it’s hard to do. That’s why as posted above my first choice is to step in to the raft from the swim platform and avoid immersion altogether.
 
In the same breath, if worrying about the raft flipping over.....stepping from the boat into it isn't a likely option.

The hardest part of survival is imagining all the possible scenarios and having options in a real situation.

A fatal flaw is seeing survival in compartmentalized views and not a sequence from start to finish.

Good ideas being tossed around, once decided on the gear, make sure you boat with the concept of the limitations the survival gear may have.
 
PS not understanding your last post. Do you mean once flipped unlikely to to able to get right side up? Or do you mean if inflated right side up unlikely to get into it?
My current thinking is unlike offshore or ocean it’s unlikely we’d need to abandon ship due to knock down, down flooding or structural hull failure. But rather collision, hard grounding or collision with debris and fire. Correcting a flipping should be possible while still on the mothership.
Am I wrong? Is this a reason to go with a coastal raft which usually doesn’t have as substantial ballast bags?
 
I interpreted it as "if you're thinking of getting into the raft in conditions where the raft may get flipped, things are likely moving around too much to just step in from the boat"
 
"The only time you really need a boat is when the one you're on is sinking......and the one next to it isn't." Jack Rose, TrawlerFest owner.

For coastal cruising/passagemaking near countries with SARSAT assets, the ubiquity of 406 EPIRB/PLBs with 100-yard accuracy means rescue contact will almost invariably within hours of beacon activation. Assuming no malfunction and weather allows rescue, it's hard to imagine a scenario where your tenure in the water is measured in anything more than hours. That said, cold water cruising (PNW etc.) have a different profile than cruising the Caribbean. Really comes down to how much risk you want to mitigate.....and the counter-risk of size/weight of a robust open-ocean capable life raft.

A couple of good articles on selecting a liferafts.


A BoatUS article on how SARSAT works, and the SARSAT website that shows number of at-sea rescues:


2021 thus far in USA: Rescues at sea: 136 people rescued in 52 incidents
2020 in USA: Rescues at sea: 217 people rescued in 83 incidents

Peter
 
This paragraph from link MVWeebles provided.
Life rafts are designed to keep the crew of a vessel alive for a short period of time after the vessel becomes uninhabitable due to fire or sinking. They provide a modest amount of shelter, equipment, hypothermia protection and a larger target for rescuers. In virtually all cases, a floating boat is a better choice than a life raft, so the decision to abandon ship must be made with great care after weighing the options.
 
In "Heavy Weather Sailing," Adlard Coles describes the mental evolution of fear. Boaters frequently make decisions that are easy to second-guess from afar. I wish I knew how I would react in a true emergency. I'd like to think I'd 'step-up into the life raft.' But given how many seasoned sailors including circumnavigators have abandoned boats that didn't sink, I have to ask myself 'what makes me different? They had to know what I know, yet they chose to abandon ship - why?'
 
Think I’ve memorized much of Coles book and still view it as the Bible. However think it’s focused on what I did in the past not what I’ll be doing in the future. Have moved on from his initial recommendations for survival storms to JSD thinking and a totally passive approach. Still, much wisdom there. The links provide another reason for the lightest raft possible and a valise. You get to choose where to deploy it and when.
Going back to storm tactics there’s a sea anchor on the new to me one. I get it unlike sailboats for trawlers and SD a pooping may be a disaster due to down flooding so a jsd doesn’t make sense on a B rated boat.. But once again this is a near shore boat. Don’t expect to ever see force 8 and above. I dislike sea anchors because they’re next to impossible to retrieve unless quite small. Don’t think a coastal raft not in extreme conditions is the same. Think they maybe retrievable. Yes do everything to save the boat first and foremost. If you save the boat god bless. But if things are going south deploy the raft and leave it SAFELY tethered. Maybe you can retrieve it and deflate then repack. Maybe not. Either way it’s buck bucks not lives.
Looking at this specific boat entry into a raft from the side of the boat would be difficult and likely involve some time in the water with a climb into the raft. Entry off the stern would be much easier. Have the raft to leeward as you try to save the boat. Move it to the stern for ingress.
Which raft? Any recommendations and why?
 
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Practical Sailor articles on Life Rafts (updated 2019). Part 1 is general, Part 2 is Coastal, Part 3 is offshore. They seem to like the Winslow models. Also decent accolades for West Marine model though note it can be difficult to board from the water. Notably, they call-out vacuum packed life rafts which seems like a really good idea for preservation.

https://www.practical-sailor.com/safety-seamanship/life-raft-test-part-i-choosing-a-life-raft

https://www.practical-sailor.com/safety-seamanship/coastal-life-rafts-eight-model-evaluation

https://www.practical-sailor.com/belowdecks-amenities/offshore-life-rafts
 

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