Lessons we learned at the Lido Show...

[Shantyhag]

Originally Posted by psneeld

Just being a wanker....

from Great Loop notes....

Our fuel concern: Our fuel concern involves two key Marina locations on the Great Loop...

Psneeld, THIS is where the thread creep begins, but I have a completely irrelevant question (so apologies to all): Isn't the GL typically done cruising the Atlantic coast north and then with the river currents south?

The reason I ask, of course (and this may be incredibly naive), is that one would think that fuel economy would be fairly dramatically benefited by favorable currents.

Is this not the case?

[Shantyhag]

Originally Posted by ksanders

Really?

My 4788 Bayliner holds 440 gallons of fuel.

At 9 knots I get a measured 1.5NMPG

At 8 knots I get a measured 1.75NMPG

[etc]...

LOVE the numbers, Mr. Sanders. Thank you for breaking those out.

[Moonstruck]

Originally Posted by psneeld

probably why I'll never do the Great Loop...if it's that far between fuel stops...how far is it between FUN stops?????[/SIZE][/FONT]

The exact reason I don't care to do the Great Loop. I was in Quebec and Ontario a couple of weeks ago. I do plan to go up and do the canals either in one of our trailerable boats or a rented boat.

Maine is where I have my sights set for future cruising. Short distances between fun stops.

[sunchaser]

Originally Posted by ksanders

Really? My 4788 Bayliner.

Yes we know Kevin, you have a Swiss army knife for a boat and really know your stuff. But a line needs to be drawn - 55' Carvers, Bayliners, Marquis, Meridians, Ocean Alexanders and Searays are built with very large engines not designed to be run day in and day out at 1200 or 1400 RPM. Further, the cost to maintain a pair of 500 to 800 HP engines is a heck of lot more than very much smaller engines normally installed in a trawler.

For the OP, by all means consider one of the big engined boats, but beware of the upkeep costs for an engine you will never need or use for its intended purpose. Price out the 1000 hour servicing on a 650HP MTU if you want an eye opener. Or Cat C18 or Cummins QSM for that matter. Great engines all but lets not let the OP think he can efficiently run a big motor at a few hundred RPM above idle all day as he cruises at 8 knots.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by ksanders

I'm no great loop expert, but we can what if, this thing to death, on what if this and this marina closed.

Not to digress though, but my comments were regarding ocean boating, so im sure you are just having fun

Hey I'm the knucklehead that everyone gasped at when I reduced my fuel capacity from 400 gallons (1200nm range) to 116 gallons (325nm range)...

So I tend to agree with you that these long ranges are great for those that may do those kind of legs..but I know where I'm going for the next 20-30 years and I doubt that I''ll need much more than that 300nm and if I do I'll carry a 55gal drum/bladder on deck for another 150nm range if need be.

In the mean time I enjoy a new, clean, easy to observe quantity and quality of fuel that's easy to manage, provided double the storage room in the engine room...etc...etc..etc

No I was just messin' with yambut I'm sure someone else would have posted it or protested your line of thinking.

[ksanders]

Originally Posted by sunchaser

Yes we know Kevin, you have a Swiss army knife for a boat and really know your stuff. But a line needs to be drawn - 55' Carvers, Bayliners, Marquis, Meridians, Ocean Alexanders and Searays are built with very large engines not designed to be run day in and day out at 1200 or 1400 RPM. Further, the cost to maintain a pair of 500 to 800 HP engines is a heck of lot more than very much smaller engines normally installed in a trawler.

For the OP, by all means consider one of the big engined boats, but beware of the upkeep costs for an engine you will never need or use for its intended purpose. Price out the 1000 hour servicing on a 650HP MTU if you want an eye opener. Or Cat C18 or Cummins QSM for that matter. Great engines all but lets not let the OP think he can efficiently run a big motor at a few hundred RPM above idle all day as he cruises at 8 knots.

swiss army knife. Thats too funny , but I agree, every Semi Displacement boat is a swiss army knife.

I agree with you about engine maintenance. The cummins 330 engines we have need their aftercoolers serviced. Other than that, its about the same as any other engine.

I also agree that you will get somewhat better fuel economy with a engine thats sized for displacement cruising. How much better is a number thats been often argued about here on TF.

As far as running the Cummins 330 at low power settings, To paraphrase, Mr Tony Athens, of boatdiesel.com, he has never seen a Cummins engine die from running at low power settings.

I, and every SD boat owner have a boat that can go slow comfortably. It can go fast comfortably. It gets reasonable fuel economy. It is good at almost everything, and really not the best at any of them. So I guess, yes, swiss army knife, or jack of all trades, master of none if you will.

Your Full displacement boat, and all FD boats, are more specalized. They get excellent fuel economy. Excellent rough water travel, excellent long range.

To be excellent at those things, they/you give up the ability to go faster, if the owner wants to, for any reason a owner might want to.

You know this though. You have a great boat.

The OP can digest all this good honest information and make a choice of what fits his life, his family, his available cruising time, and his cruising needs. Those things will help him make a informed decision about the boat that best fits his needs.

[Baker]

Originally Posted by pilothouse king

Of course your wife is going to like the Carvers, and probably Sea Rays too for that matter, as they both were designed to attract the eye (and pocketbook) of the ladies. And the Carver Voyager series was a rip roaring success right out of the box. They were the first boat for many buyers, who quickly moved up into the 80' up range. It certainly brought people to the hobby for sure. HUGE inside is why. But to get that space, the design is "cab forward" (as they call it in the car design world) which is great for interior volume, but all that exterior bulk acts like a giant sail. Think empty can on the water in how they get blown about. For grins go watch somebody try to dock one with a beam wind-even with bow and stern thrusters. GREAT condo's at the marina with a floating dock, but perhaps not the best cruising boat. Not that many on your coast as they had to be trucked from Wisconsin on two trucks (hull on one-deck and superstructure on the other) then assembled at the dealers. Which leads to another issue that's very disconcerting to those running the larger one's out in the ocean. The noise the joint makes working. Unlike other boats that aren't assembled at the dealer, these boats don't have bulkheads or structural interior attachments between the hull and superstructure. ALL that open space? Like being in a trash can being hit by a baseball bat=with the concussion of air being compressed as it hits waves. I've had professional Captains just flat out refuse to do a delivery on one offshore due to their previous experiences. The noises they make are just too disconcerting. Very weak gel-coat too! The best mechanic at Sun Power Diesel in Ft. Lauderdale, put's on a life preserver during a survey- if the chop is more than 3'. It's more a statement to his opinion of the boats than an actual safety concern, but he isn't shy about making his opinion known when buyers ask him why.
As far as Brokers.. I would think you want one that knows boats, that's taken about every design there is through a survey or five, and can tell you the history of the designs when new. Yeah, they might be asses, especially at a boat show because they've probably heard every question and statement a hundred times (I seriously quit going years ago, out of fear I was going to cut somebody's throat if I heard "I'm buying when we win the lottery" one more time!) or more. There's some excellent long time brokers down in San Diego, and up the coast from Newport. Hire one to be your advocate-and broker. These people that become brokers after failing at other careers really don't know much. It takes TIME and experience to cull the truth from the fallacies of the boat world. It's been my experience that the most ornery guy (especially in the boat yard!) is the most knowledgeable. Beware the glad handler you know.
Listen to Kevin Sanders- he know's what he speaks about Pilothouse boats.
Good luck!!
Oh=DOCKAGE. That should be your first question about boating out there. Where, and how much? I sold a 65'er to a fellow in Newport 12 years ago out of Hong Kong, and he discovered there was no dockage there as the ship approached, and had to buy a house to dock her. In hind sight that was a smart investment- the boat? Not-so-much.
There's TWO 4788's in Newport Beach for sale. One is right behind Ardel's office.

I knew we were gonna get into Carver bashing on this thread. First off PHKing, Some very good advice in there. I am not going to refute any of it. But I do find it ironic that this is coming from a Meridian owner....a manufacturer that had to change it's name to escape from the poor reputation propagated by rumor/lore....and here we are spreading "lore" as to the seaworthiness of a Carver....

I will say that I went into my Carver purchase with very low expectations based on all of the "lore" I had heard about....yes, even from a surveyor friend. And I will say that I have been nothing but pleasantly surprised. While there are access issues(any 35ft boat with twin engines will have them), I have yet to find myself scratching my head wondering "why the hell did they do this???"... So, instead of focusing on the negatives of buying an American built mass produced boat, let's focus on the positives:...and these are just the ones that come to mind.....

Factory support!!! Ask your fellow Taiwanese Trawler owner(Marine Trader,etc.) what kind of factory support they have!!! They even have websites you can go to to get a vendor list so you may not even have to call them to get what you are looking for. But if you do have to call them, a regular upper midwest average Joe will answer the phone and be quite helpful. He can tell you how your boat left the factory...shaft sizes...engine serial numbers....prop size and pitch...etc.!!!! He can assist you in finding a part that you are having a hard time finding. Anyway, you get the idea.

Standards. Yes, these boats are built to a standard. Namely ABYC and NMMA. Heck, my boat even has a "Yacht Certification" placard(my Mainship had one too)....this whole time I had no idea that I was "yachting"!!!.... I don't mean to make light of this. Some people will argue that ABYC is a base standard or whatever, but a standard nonetheless and things are done the way most professionals agree they should be done....wiring...fuel systems...plumbing systems....to minimize those "why did they do that" head scratching moments.

Operator's manual! REALLY???....Really!!! As an airline pilot, we love manuals. And I was quite surprised with the thoroughness of the manual for my boat. So much so that I thought to myself...."How does the ignorant dumbass that buys these type of boats understand this???". I am being somewhat facetious here but There are some things in there that are likely well over the head of the average first time boat buyer.....very unlike the stereotypical dumbing down to the level of the ignorant rich dumbass that would buy a boat like this....again...tongue firmly in cheek. I am talking wiring diagrams. I am talking system schematics. It is similar(not quite as technical and is dumbed down a bit) to an airplane manual and I love it!!!

Engineering. I have flown American made aircraft and I have flown aircraft engineered in Europe. American engineering just makes sense. It is usually straight forward...usually at least slightly "over-engineered". I am not saying it is better...but it is!!!! Where Americans will put another hydraulic pump...Europeans put an accumulator....etc. You get the drift. I know this is somewhat abstract, but when I look at my boat's systems, it all makes sense...Straight forward...no short cuts!

American sourced parts. Most parts are made right here in America and can still be found right here in America. I was looking into updating my battery charger to one that has an AGM setting for my new AGM batteries. The installed charger on my boat is a Charles 80 amp charger. I had a heart attack when I priced it so I think I will stay with the OEM one(which Odyssey says is fine). Charles is one of the best battery chargers out there....who says Carver cheaps out???

These are just a few things that come to mind. I have been wanting to do a write up on this and this is what has been banging around in my head so out it came on this thread.

To the OP, I hope this is helpful in some way. Ultimately the best advice, as many people have said, is that you have to be absolutely honest with yourself in how you will use the boat. There are dreams...and there is reality. Where those two meet, is where the perfect boat is.....

The Voyager series of Carvers are nicely laid out boats. The ones that interest you are usually powered by Cummins 6CTA engines which are good engines and not terribly expensive to maintain(relatively). You can get parts just about anywhere in this hemisphere. They can be thirsty if you run up on plane.

[pilothouse king]

First of all, I'm not bashing anything. I'm telling what I've seen with my eyes, experienced myself. I'm a Broker here in Miami/Ft. Lauderdale. I see LOTS of boats, LOTS of boatyards, and have personally LOOKED INTO boats forensically after storms. I have a clue. I could tell you about Nordhavn's, Grand Banks, too if you need to know. I know WAY more than I ever wanted to know about many boats and especially Fountain 48's! Pretty much every boat on those old print ads sold, so I went to their surveys, some over and over and over (as buyers bought, and resold them).
On my link here, you can see 20 something pages of old full page print ads. I know what I speak. I'm not making this up. I'm happy as heck to sell a Voyager IF it fit's the bill for a clients purpose and
have sold several Carver Voyagers. I've taken them through surveys, I've paid $10k out of MY pocket to fix one afterwards. I've added bow and stern thrusters to them, and they STILL were a handful to dock in a wind. One one, I paid to have EVERY screw in the rubrail changed to flat because the curved one's caught pilings. My money. I remember all to well MY money expenses. Back when there was a Carver dealer here in Miami, we WOULD watch them try to dock them in Dinner Key Marina-for grins. I regularly had to pay workers to wet sand, and buff the gel coat on two year old boats, and always had to paint the black air intakes. I'm convinced the gel coat is a prime reason that Carver went Bankrupt in 09, to "wash away the warranties" and lawsuits. Carver said "sun damage" but I watched a 530 come out of winter storage in Cheybogan Michigan, where it lived since new, and it's gel coat was just as cooked as one that lived in Florida, so it wasn't the sun!!! It was a latent defect of construction. You do know they went Bankrupt don't you? Ask any former Carver dealer about that! Especially the one there in Texas.
I hired a Captain to bring me a 570 from New York for the Miami Boat Show, and we couldn't show her when she arrived. She wasn't in a hurricane, just took a beating offshore, and the Captain refused anymore Voyager deliveries. I had another client, who's wife was stuck in the head of a 450 for hours offshore when the door seized up from working offshore, and she had to be cut out with an ax.
I have PHOTOS of the hull and deck on different trailers. I leave it to you to prefer a boat finished in a factory vs finished at a dealership, where-ever that was- by whomever was working there. I know that I started in this business as a 21 yro in a New Orleans boatyard commissioning boats for OJ Young, and can tell you I personally fked up some new boats because I had ZERO supervision or training. "Yard monkeys" I believe we were quite correctly called.
I know nothing about the smaller one's. I don't believe the original poster here was inquiring about smaller boats. They could be the best thing since sliced bread-don't know.

As to why Brunswick changed the name from Bayliner to Meridian. All I can tell you was that they charged the new Meridian dealers WAY more for the boats than they did the previous Bayliner dealers, and the retail prices were WAY more for a Meridian than a Bayliner of the same size/model. So I'm guessing they did it to put more money into THEIR pockets. It didn't fool anybody on the Pilothouse models. I'm thinking it was a giant corporate mistake like "New Coke". Proven by the fact that by 2008 Meridian was "moved" to Florida where they built only flybridge sedan boats that look more like Sea Rays, than anything else. Same molds? Don't know. The big one's haven't been selling well, and buyers WISH they would build the pilothouses again. Big demand for Pilothouse's- not any demand for sedan bridges. Again, probably for their profit margins their CORPORATE motives.
Let's talk RESALE values. In 2000 you could NOT buy a new 450 Voyager with a sack of cash for under $800k. FACT. You COULD buy a 2000 Bayliner 4788 for $365k. After 9/11/01 I was selling 2000 Carver 450 Voyagers for $465k, and 2000 4788's for $340k. Which one took the hit depreciation wise? Right now you can buy 2000 450 Voyagers all day for (way) under $200k, but you would be hard pressed to find a 2000 4788 for under $190k. Which one held it's values best? WHY? I know people who regularly take old Bayliner 45's from San Francisco to Mexico and back, and from Miami to Venezuela and back, and run 4788's and Meridian 490's from Miami to Nova Scotia, and back. 5788 owners from Mexico to Alaska, and sold a Meridian 580 in Costa Rica, that had come down from Alaska. REGULARLY. I'll let you show me the one Carver Voyager that makes those trips. I'm a betting man. Make your bet. You know why I like these boats so well? Because they always go through survey, and I get paid. Lesson learned quite well after years of failed surveys on so called "quality (read expensive) yachts". The Bayliner and Meridian buyers are ALL coming up from smaller boats, and ALL are very experienced and could give two shits about others opinions of them. I was on a cruise ship in Alaska with a guy who owns a 135' Christensen in Vancouver (note we were on cruise ship-NOT his boat!) and a 4588 passed below and he wistfully said "best boat I ever owned, I miss those days". New, younger trophy wife wanted flash, he bought flash but he said he CRUISED his 45' up to Alaska many times. Yes, it's been suggested I lay off the coffee. :>)
BTW- that's a photo of a Bayliner in my avatar, not a Meridian.

[Art]

Hot Damn - Blake! I appreciate a person who can speak their piece... and back up their statements!!

Soooo... I may be entering a hornets’ nest asking you, this: What report do you give Tollycraft boats?

Perhaps you’ve not been exposed to too many Tolly and perhaps most Tollycraft were smaller than you like to deal in. But, anyway... I look forward to hear what you may think about Tolly construction/build-outs!

Happy Boating Daze – Art

PS : Have another coffee before placing words, I love that stuff toooo - LOL

[Baker]

As far as the name change goes, you are probably right. They did for the money...duh... They knew they could not charge that kind of money for a Bayliner so they changed the name. I am sure they put a new marketing spin on it to make people think it is a different boat.

As far as resale, they look to be the same. There are 450s that are significantly more than the 4788 but there are some that are significantly less. But average looks to be about the same. We just don't see many Bayliners in our neck of the woods...most are on the West Coast.

As far as the Local Carver dealer goes...I know him and he got smoked. At the top of the market they were the leading Carver dealer in the country so we have shitloads of Voyagers around here. Heck, there are probably 20 in my marina alone!!! After I wrote that I did take a walk in the Marina. I do believe Bayliner owners are likely more knowledgeable than the average Carver owner because I saw some Voyagers that were in poor shape. Not because of design, just because of neglect. I think they thought that the only cost would be the note. I did find an owner on the dock and started talking to him and took a look inside with what you were saying....and I did notice what you were talking about.....nothing but air in there. I imagine it would be kinda "noisy" in there in a sea.

With that said, I would never consider them to be offshore passagemakers and would only take them offshore if the weather was right.

OJ Young.....he is still kicking and has tried to retire numerous times. He can't get it out of his blood. He is the stereotypical grumpy guy that you were talking about in your other post...you just have to know how to take him. And yes, he definitely knows his shit!!! He has done work on many of my boats. Never had a problem....knock fiberglass... Seriously, he does good work at a fair price.

I looked at a Bayliner similar to yours before I bought this one. It was a hurricane Ike boat but had been repaired. It was an awfully nice boat as I lean toward sedan/pilothouse boats. My current boat just kinda found me...matter of fact, my last two boats found me.

My apologies for bashing. I just felt the need to defend(for lack of a better word) since so many people(especially on the internet) have a tendency to propagate rumors and lore. And it has nothing to do with the current boat I own. I would have defended a Bayliner just as vigorously. They all have their place. A Catalina sailboat is a wonderful boat for what most people use their boats for....daytripping and weekending. And so is a Carver. A Catalina is likely not the first choice for a passagemaker(sailboat)....and neither is a Carver. But both serve well for their intended purpose. (I do realize that you were talking about the Voyagers specifically).

[gwkiwi]

Originally Posted by Arch

I'm 4,000 miles into the great loop and spend a lot of time with people who use their boats all day every day. My impression is that the pilot house folks really love the design. When you live on a boat, the ability to get away from each other is as important as seaworthiness. The layout also tends to work well for indoor entertaining. While I really like my double cabin, flybridge, lower helm in the saloon design, I can certainly see the appeal of the pilot house.

I urge you to have a clear vision about how you will use the boat. The beautiful boat with the large interior is often a horrible choice for long range cruising. Conversely, a perfect LRC can be an awful dock queen.

I grew up in Southern California and have boated there. I have cruised the San Juan Islands, Caribbean, and now the east coast, Great Lakes, and the river system. For those of you in SoCal,I mean no offense, but you have nowhere to go. Weekends in Catalina can get old fast. I mention this because, in my opinion, as live aboards your boat isn't likely to move often or far. With that in mind, I would make comfort the primary objective.

If on the other hand you are looking to do long range cruises, then consider spending time with folks that use their boats that way. Have your Admiral talk to the women who cruise. What they want in a boat changes a lot once underway. They will be happy to have you aboard and share their experiences.

Best of luck, fair winds, and have fun,
Arch

Thats proven true for us, actually better than expected as my wife who is now working remotely is able to set up her computer, printer scanner and fax and calls from the pilothouse while I work elsewhere on the boat doing engine work,etc, etc.

She feels like it is her office and when under way she can still work away while I run the boat and yet she is able to jump behind the wheel while I am on engine room checks etc.

No boat is everything and the stairway down from the pilothouse could be an issue for some but we are still young (relatively)

[pilothouse king]

There's a 2001 4788 at Portifino Harbour Marina at Clear Lake Texas. Came in from Myrtle Beach. SC a couple of months ago. His previous boat was a 4087.
I can't believe OJ is still alive. WHERE? Do you know he was the SORC champion for years- and was known as 'The Mouth of the South' before Ted Turner? Boy he set me straight in the way's of the REAL world- REAL quick back in 1974. He would sit behind his tinted window overlooking the yard and yell out me on the PA speaker "Davis, I see you hiding over there you lazy MF, SOB, get back to work". It's solely because of him that I came into sales-to get out of the heat! After getting yelled at repeatedly in that brutal New Orleans sun, one day, after having to walk through the air conditioned office to get to the time clock one morning, I noticed these guys just sitting in there reading magazines. I asked him: "OJ, who are those guys?"..He said Yachtbrokers, and I said "THAT'S what I want to do", and just like that he said "come in on Saturday dressed like one and you can be one", and just like that he started treating me decently. And here I was fresh out of college a couple of years thinking people were all equal. HA. Lesson learned. I would like to contact OJ to thank him.
RE: Tollycrafts. Yes, indeed I know them, but they made so many models of so many different sizes over so many years it would be impossible to form a average opinion on them. Sorta like asking:"what do you think about brunettes?"..I have MANY thoughts on them! lol The Tolly's are all old now for sure, as are my brunettes- THIS I can emphatically state. I just looked on Yachtworld and there's several REAL nice bonafide Gold Platers on the market right now. As nice as they are- buyers will buy a 2010 boat of the same size for the same price if given the opportunity. New ain't bad when it comes to machines.

Some of the finest 'Gold Platers' I've seen in recent years have been Tolly's in the 57' -65' range. Just total gems. Real gentleman yachts kept in tip top condition. Vestiges of the days when millionaires weren't so common. Old Money I guess it would be called. Yachtsmen who wore blue blazers, and dipped the colors at sunset, etc.
I've also seen some really sweet little one's under 30' in Bellingham Wa.

The one's that I've been on built towards the end of Tollycraft years (thinking 97"ish"- I remember a dealership here having a big new one for sale. I still have a bunch of Tollycraft literature) I wasn't too impressed with. I know we were supposed to be impressed with her, but it just sorta fell flat. The head was way back on the lower deck, down too many stairs- is something I still remember.
Recently I had a mid 90's 45' Cockpit MY for sale, and it REALLY fell flat design wise (engine room just impossibly tight) and it had an awful white ash interior. Very hard to get on and off. Cockpit stairs too steep, had to get on your knees to use the microwave, etc. Gel coat was weak (want to see excellent gel-coat? Go look at Chris Crafts even from the 60's! Still like new even in Florida brutal sunlight), carpentry was not what one would expect from the name Tollycraft. It previously had blisters, it had lots of Lexan, which was crazing,which is what Lexan does no matter what it's on. I would had thought it was just a old Taiwan boat if I didn't know it was a Tollycraft.
AND it was pretty damn light too! The previous owner had spent a fortune on her (blister job, one new Caterpillar diesel, etc.,) and finally donated her to a charity. She went for under $100k.

[GFC]

Originally Posted by sunchaser

55' Carvers, Bayliners, Marquis, Meridians, Ocean Alexanders and Searays are built with very large engines not designed to be run day in and day out at 1200 or 1400 RPM.

Really? So you're saying that the Cat 3406C's in my boat won't stand up to continuous hours at those rpm's. Interesting. I'd bet there are a lot of over the road truckers who would disagree with you.

Before I bought my boat I talked with several diesel repair companies and 2 Cat dealer repair shops about those engines. All said basically the same thing, that the 3406C engines were designed to run a million miles over the road before a major overhaul was needed. Keep 'em full of clean oil and feed 'em clean fuel and they run forever.

[Art]

Blake - - > Glad to see you had that COP O' COFFEE!!

Tollycraft lost their good build quality soon after Mr Tolly sold in late 80's.

Early 70's to mid 80's were their real good construction build-out heyday! Before that was OK and after got progressive cheaper builds until Tollycraft went broke under new owners. That's da way id goes!

Ours is a 1977... built like a BSH... fun to own, cruise, and hook!

[ksanders]

Originally Posted by GFC

Really? So you're saying that the Cat 3406C's in my boat won't stand up to continuous hours at those rpm's. Interesting. I'd bet there are a lot of over the road truckers who would disagree with you.

Before I bought my boat I talked with several diesel repair companies and 2 Cat dealer repair shops about those engines. All said basically the same thing, that the 3406C engines were designed to run a million miles over the road before a major overhaul was needed. Keep 'em full of clean oil and feed 'em clean fuel and they run forever.

Premature engine failure due to "wet stacking" is one of the most misquoted things we see with diesel engines.

Even "experts" sometimes jump on the bandwagon, yet nobody seems to be able to produce all the modern diesels that have died from underloading.

Thats because they're still in service!

[Baker]

Originally Posted by pilothouse king

There's a 2001 4788 at Portifino Harbour Marina at Clear Lake Texas. Came in from Myrtle Beach. SC a couple of months ago. His previous boat was a 4087.
I can't believe OJ is still alive. WHERE? Do you know he was the SORC champion for years- and was known as 'The Mouth of the South' before Ted Turner? Boy he set me straight in the way's of the REAL world- REAL quick back in 1974. He would sit behind his tinted window overlooking the yard and yell out me on the PA speaker "Davis, I see you hiding over there you lazy MF, SOB, get back to work". It's solely because of him that I came into sales-to get out of the heat! After getting yelled at repeatedly in that brutal New Orleans sun, one day, after having to walk through the air conditioned office to get to the time clock one morning, I noticed these guys just sitting in there reading magazines. I asked him: "OJ, who are those guys?"..He said Yachtbrokers, and I said "THAT'S what I want to do", and just like that he said "come in on Saturday dressed like one and you can be one", and just like that he started treating me decently. And here I was fresh out of college a couple of years thinking people were all equal. HA. Lesson learned. I would like to contact OJ to thank him.
RE: Tollycrafts. Yes, indeed I know them, but they made so many models of so many different sizes over so many years it would be impossible to form a average opinion on them. Sorta like asking:"what do you think about brunettes?"..I have MANY thoughts on them! lol The Tolly's are all old now for sure, as are my brunettes- THIS I can emphatically state. I just looked on Yachtworld and there's several REAL nice bonafide Gold Platers on the market right now. As nice as they are- buyers will buy a 2010 boat of the same size for the same price if given the opportunity. New ain't bad when it comes to machines.

Some of the finest 'Gold Platers' I've seen in recent years have been Tolly's in the 57' -65' range. Just total gems. Real gentleman yachts kept in tip top condition. Vestiges of the days when millionaires weren't so common. Old Money I guess it would be called. Yachtsmen who wore blue blazers, and dipped the colors at sunset, etc.
I've also seen some really sweet little one's under 30' in Bellingham Wa.

The one's that I've been on built towards the end of Tollycraft years (thinking 97"ish"- I remember a dealership here having a big new one for sale. I still have a bunch of Tollycraft literature) I wasn't too impressed with. I know we were supposed to be impressed with her, but it just sorta fell flat. The head was way back on the lower deck, down too many stairs- is something I still remember.
Recently I had a mid 90's 45' Cockpit MY for sale, and it REALLY fell flat design wise (engine room just impossibly tight) and it had an awful white ash interior. Very hard to get on and off. Cockpit stairs too steep, had to get on your knees to use the microwave, etc. Gel coat was weak (want to see excellent gel-coat? Go look at Chris Crafts even from the 60's! Still like new even in Florida brutal sunlight), carpentry was not what one would expect from the name Tollycraft. It previously had blisters, it had lots of Lexan, which was crazing,which is what Lexan does no matter what it's on. I would had thought it was just a old Taiwan boat if I didn't know it was a Tollycraft.
AND it was pretty damn light too! The previous owner had spent a fortune on her (blister job, one new Caterpillar diesel, etc.,) and finally donated her to a charity. She went for under $100k.

Yep, he is still at it. Now he drives a golf cart around and stops at every boat to yell at whoever is working on it. They guys take it in stride. He really does have a great bunch working for him...best in the area. There is some mutual respect in there somewhere or they wouldn't put up with him. He does not own Seabrook Shipyard but does all of the work there. It is kind of a good deal for his customers because his quotes include haul out and block and storage fees. So the longer it takes, the less money he makes. So he is cracking the whip to get those jobs out on time. He doesn't f**k around. Definitely a legendary character!!! His number is 7138281449. That will ring straight to his cell.

[sunchaser]

Originally Posted by GFC

Really? So you're saying that the Cat 3406C's in my boat won't stand up to continuous hours at those rpm's.

As Ronald Reagan said years ago, "well there he goes again." Nowhere did I say that engines would suffer early demise if run slow. I said the engines were not designed to be run at 1200 RPM. Look up the BSFC on the 3406 and as Cat intended the sweet spot for fuel efficiency is several hundred RPM higher, or perfect for their intended purpose - gensets. Thousands of them I might add were built for this purpose.

[ksanders]

Originally Posted by sunchaser

As Ronald Reagan said years ago, "well there he goes again." Nowhere did I say that engines would suffer early demise if run slow. I said the engines were not designed to be run slow. Look up the BSFC on the 3406 and as Cat intended the sweet spot for fuel efficiency is about 1800 RPM, or perfect for their intended purpose - gensets. Thousands of them I might add were built for this purpose.

so im curious...

If an engine wont fail early if its run slow

if the owner is willing to live with the slightly higher fuel consumption of having a oversized engine

if the owner is willing to put forth the slightly increased maintenance (ie aftercooler) costs of a larger engine

then

what is the challenge with an engine that is llarge enough to get the boat cruising at a faster pace again?

[pilothouse king]

Originally Posted by Art

Blake - - > Glad to see you had that COP O' COFFEE!!

Tollycraft lost their good build quality soon after Mr Tolly sold in late 80's.

Early 70's to mid 80's were their real good construction build-out heyday! Before that was OK and after got progressive cheaper builds until Tollycraft went broke under new owners. That's da way id goes!

Ours is a 1977... built like a BSH... fun to own, cruise, and hook!

Like this one? This yacht was in bristol condition!!

[Art]

Originally Posted by pilothouse king

Like this one? This yacht was in bristol condition!!

Yeah, Blake - That's the one! Bad ass, cool 34' classic boats!

Totally strong fiberglass all over. Stringers, transom etc - NO Wood in Hull. Bottom up to 1.5" thick expertly hand laid FRP. Roomy as heck w/ interior to die for! Clean bottom and depending on load aboard, w/ 350 cid 255 hp twins... Cruises from below hull speed (6 to 6.5 knts) on one engine getting 2.75 to 3 nmpg / Around hull speed (7.58 knts) on twins at 2 nmpg / Full plane (16 to 17 knts) 1 nmpg / WOT (22 to 23 knts) at OMG nmpg! LOL

Can we spell inexpensive, hassel free general boating FUN!