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Old 10-09-2021, 02:06 PM   #1
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Lehman Removal

Just got bad news that the broken water pump damaged the stbd engine on my GB42 Classic. Sounds like a rod or main bearing. The tech who diagnosed it was a 20 yr USCG diesel mechanic who went to work for himself after retirement. He is very knowledgeable.
His recommendation was to replace the engine with a new or rebuilt unit. But thinking about it, I don't know why one cylinder can't be rebuilt. In my experience typically one cylinder is damaged from brief overheating. Obviously if the damage is mmore extensive the engine will have to be rebuilt or replaced. Bearings etc are readily available. The boat lived most of its life in Lake Superior so it has only 1,900 engine hours. Brian has told me that they don't even think about a rebuild before 15k hours; has seen running Lehman's with 45k hours!

Here are my questuions:
1. Is it possible to raise the engine and remove a piston and con rod? Obviously, if it is a main bearing, the the engine would have to be removed to access the crank and check the journals.

2. How do you remove the engine from the boat? The boat is bit of a drive from my house so I can't easily measure the width to determine if would go through a saloon door. Will the engine have to be stripped to a short block status?

I am devastated because I have become emotionally attached to this old woodie.
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Old 10-09-2021, 02:30 PM   #2
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First, I am not a mechanic so I donít know about what is involved with the work. Typically Lehmans damage to the number 6 cylinder is common when they overheat. I had SP225s in our last boat and I pulled them out to do work in the engine room. It was actually pretty easy to get them up into the salon. I built a crane to lift them up, one each winter, and slide them over to the other side. There are several threads that have info on it here. If the work can be done in the salon it will be easy to get the engine up there. Getting it out of the boat will be more challenging but should be doable. I made some stringers out of LVLs to set the engine on when it was up in the salon. Used 2x lumber to support the deck down to the stringers so the deck didnít collapse. Good luck.
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Old 10-09-2021, 03:33 PM   #3
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A good boat yard shouldn't have any problem removing one or more of your Lehman's. My boatyard at the time had mine out in a morning. They used an articulating arm mounted on a very large fork lift to come in via the saloon door, turn and hoist it. It was on the ground in a few minutes.
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Old 10-09-2021, 03:36 PM   #4
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Thank you both for the good info. I hadn't thought about working on the engine in the salon. But I see it makes a lot of sense. How much does this engine weigh. Did you leave the gears in the engine room?
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Old 10-09-2021, 03:41 PM   #5
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Cple of questions. When you say used 2 by to support the deck...are ypou talkinmg about the salon floor?
What are the structures with the large triangular reinforcing? One side of the hoisting structure? What did you use to attach the hoist to?

Again this is really helpful.
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Old 10-09-2021, 03:46 PM   #6
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I enlarged the pictures. It looks like you used an LVL between the vertical supports. Are the vertical supports wood or steel? Is that a chain hoist?

BTW I search for engine removal buit didn't get any hits. What are better keywords?
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Old 10-09-2021, 03:59 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omoore View Post
:… 1. Is it possible to raise the engine and remove a piston and con rod? Obviously, if it is a main bearing, the the engine would have to be removed to access the crank and check the journals. …

I am devastated because I have become emotionally attached to this old woodie.
I’d get the engine out of the boat for a complete rebuild. You’re not to far from Bomac who did the rebuild on our FL. In a morning the engine was out. We put it on a friends trailer and drove it Bomac and picked it up when it was done.

http://www.bomacmarine.com/pdf/Sugge...ehman-Ford.pdf
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Old 10-09-2021, 04:09 PM   #8
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Just my 2 cents but if you are pulling the engine go ahead and rebuild it completely. Not real sure why a bad water pump would damage a bearing. Guess it's possible. So if ones damaged the others might be too.
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Old 10-09-2021, 04:10 PM   #9
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I used a 6x6 I beam to go horizontally across the salon. On the port side I had plenty of room so I used 6x6 lying on the deck and another stood on end to hold up the I beam. The triangles are to hold the vertical 6x6. On the starboard side I only had 2Ē so I used a 2x2 square tube to hold up the I beam. On both sides I used 2x4s to support the deck down to the stringers. I used a chain fall and trolley to lift and roll the engine to the other side. I used a piece of 3/4Ē plywood to replace the deck where I set the engine for the winter. I used 3 LVLs to make temporary stringers for the engine to sit on the engine mounts. I used various size of 2x to make support for the 3/4Ē plywood deck down to the stringers also. I lifted both the engine and transmission together, mine weighted about 1350 pounds. Took about 2 hours to get the first one out and 1.5 hours the next winter to get the second one out. Mine were the 225s so they weigh a bit more than the 120.
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Old 10-09-2021, 04:36 PM   #10
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Get a second opinion. They cannot pull head to see cylinder damage. If none? Rebuild where is. They can spin bearings out easily. Might not be that bad.
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Old 10-09-2021, 06:06 PM   #11
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Yes to the second opinion. A mechanics stethoscope is a good diagnostic tool for checking internal components.

I don't think it's possible to guess ahead of time what needs to be replaced. Once the head is off the cylinders can be mic'ed and any scoring noted. if any scoring the cylinders need machining. The head mating surfaces can also be machined.

Working on an engine in place is not easy. I personally would take it down to a short block before removal.
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Old 10-09-2021, 07:20 PM   #12
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If you have a bad rod or main bearing, there is likely damage to the crank. If the engine threw a rod there could be other damage including cracks in the crank, damage to the block or cylinder.
I'd pull the head before hoisting. If there's no apparent damage to the cylinders and the engine turns, I'd hoist it enough to remove the pan and inspect the bearings. Bearings usually fail because of a loss of oil pressure or excessive rpm. Rod bearings usually fail before main bearings because they're last in line for the oil.

If a rod bearing failed the rod is no good, but the piston should be ok if the rod didn't break. Sometimes scaring on a crank journal can be smoothed and an oversize bearing fitted. But if it was my engine, I'd do a full rebuild while closely checking all internal parts.
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Old 10-09-2021, 07:42 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omoore View Post
Just got bad news that the broken water pump damaged the stbd engine on my GB42 Classic. Sounds like a rod or main bearing. The tech who diagnosed it was a 20 yr USCG diesel mechanic who went to work for himself after retirement. He is very knowledgeable.
His recommendation was to replace the engine with a new or rebuilt unit. But thinking about it, I don't know why one cylinder can't be rebuilt. In my experience typically one cylinder is damaged from brief overheating. Obviously if the damage is mmore extensive the engine will have to be rebuilt or replaced. Bearings etc are readily available. The boat lived most of its life in Lake Superior so it has only 1,900 engine hours. Brian has told me that they don't even think about a rebuild before 15k hours; has seen running Lehman's with 45k hours!

Here are my questuions:
1. Is it possible to raise the engine and remove a piston and con rod? Obviously, if it is a main bearing, the the engine would have to be removed to access the crank and check the journals.

2. How do you remove the engine from the boat? The boat is bit of a drive from my house so I can't easily measure the width to determine if would go through a saloon door. Will the engine have to be stripped to a short block status?

I am devastated because I have become emotionally attached to this old woodie.
Can you give the signs and symptoms that led to a recommendation to rebuild? Sounds like a rod or main bearing. Is that a literal sound or a guess of problem.
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Old 10-09-2021, 07:50 PM   #14
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Oliver, here is what happened on my 1972 GB 42's port 120 Lehman back in 1987 in San Diego. Loud clanking coming from port engine. Took it to Admiralty Marine, the local Lehman dealer where they compression tested it and found number six jug low due to seawater leaking back into the engine after shut down from a rotted steel muffler mounted OVER the engine - how dumb. They set up a lift much as shown above only mine was fore and aft, not athwartships so they could set up the support feet near the forward and after engine room bulkheads - no cabin sole-to-engine string supports needed. They lifted the engine and then replaced the engine room access hatches. Then they installed a very closely cut plywood covering over the entire saloon before lowering the engine onto some timber balks where it was stripped to a short block. They moved the boat to a berth where their crane arrangement could reach into to the cabin through the port side cabin door and pulled the block out without a scratch on anything, bored all six cylinders and installed six new identical pistons. Then they reversed the process. I had previously replaced the original poor muffler installation with two Verna-Lift mufflers. Four operating hours after I got the boat back, clanking noise returned. Admiralty took the boat back and again tore the engine down to find a faulty piston. Replaced all six and put the engine back in again, and it ran fine well after I sold the boat in 2015. You will recover from this, but I am thinking after a bit more checking including a compression test (if the engine is not seized) you would be best off to pull the engine for the best service because mechanics working in cramped quarters trying to patch up an engine with a single piston repair are going to have a lot harder time that if they have the engine out. You might even save hours that way. See Lepke's advice above. If the block is ruined, there are used Lehman 120s out there for sale you could use for parts.

Can you just briefly recap the casualty or direct me to a link here on TF and explain why the pump failure did not result in an engine-saving alarm?
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Old 10-09-2021, 08:01 PM   #15
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On our last boat I put in Borel Mfg exhaust temperature alarms that will go off almost immediately after you loose cooling water. Very simple install. No affiliation.
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Old 10-09-2021, 08:27 PM   #16
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There is no harm in taking off the head and seeing what you are in for. If it is just 1 cylinder, then do it in the boat. If not , it’s less engine to remove through a door. I do not see why a bearing would go from overheat condition.
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Old 10-09-2021, 08:51 PM   #17
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On our last boat I put in Borel Mfg exhaust temperature alarms that will go off almost immediately after you loose cooling water. Very simple install. No affiliation.
Yes, indeed. I have installed them in five engines so far. Water flow alarms seem like a good idea, but the Borel style overheat alarms a so much less intrusinve.
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Old 10-09-2021, 08:56 PM   #18
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I installed the Aqualarm and within months it paid for itself when the impeller failed. The alarm sounded before temp left operating zone
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Old 10-10-2021, 12:37 AM   #19
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[QUOTE=omoore;1044282]:. The boat lived most of its life in Lake Superior so it has only 1,900 engine hours. Brian has told me that they don't even think about a rebuild before 15k hours; has seen running Lehman's with 45k hours!



For what it's worth.

You have a 50 year old marine engine that appears to be seriously underused. After having had the expensive pleasure rebuilding two FL120's, the one thing I learn't from this is that the old FL's love being used.

You might get away with identifying the immediate issue, however there are a lot of other parts on the engine that probably need attention. Have a plan and don't wait till things fail.

If you intend to keep the boat do the old girl a favour and give her a complete mechanical inspection, from the bottom up.

AND, to add to your financial woes, if you do remove the engine for work, take out the gear box and send it away to your local shop. They can split the case have a look to see if everything is as it should be. All being good it won't cost much and you should have peace of mind for the next 30 years. Don't wait till it fails.

Oh, and if you have everything out give the ER a good coat of paint while you are at it.

Did I mention the injectors?

Gotta love old boats-actually you do otherwise it will drive you crazy.

Good luck

PS. The GB 42' is a wonderful boat, you are lucky to have her.
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Old 10-10-2021, 01:20 AM   #20
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Omoore. I have 153 engine hours after a mistaken diagnosis that I need an engine overhaul. In my case it was a frozen damper plate. But it presented itself in a way to a good mechanic who gave me the worst case scenario.
Unfortunately it is a 50 year old engine and a rebuild is the first thought regardless of engine hours because newer engines fail sooner.
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