Lehman Removal

[Southern Boater]

Trying to understand, why would a non-sleeved diesel be considered a throw-way while any American V-8 can be bored and stroked and continue to be used?

I read on boatdiesel.com the 3208 can be bored at least once and rebuilt, my 3208NA’s feel very strong at 2800 hours and 30 years old, and I’ll be doing everything possible to keep them running.

It seems boat ownership for the average human is about trying to control the cash haemorrhage, but of course for the fully dedicated (ok, obsessed ) boat owner, it’s easier to allocate spare funds.

 

[psneeld]

Last I heard, my old bost with 3208Ts were about 25 years old with maybe 4500 or more hours on the and were running better than ever pushing a 37 foot sportfish.

 

[ABfish]

Trying to understand, why would a non-sleeved diesel be considered a throw-way while any American V-8 can be bored and stroked and continue to be used?

A sleeved block allows the engine to be rebuilt "in frame" with no need to pull the engine block. Sleeves return the cylinder walls to original condition with no need for machining and allow for numerous rebuilds using the same block. Boring a block removes metal and thins the cylinder walls, thus limiting the number of rebuilds.

These may not be significant advantages for a boat, particularly one that is used recreationally, but it explains how a heavy equipment mechanic might contrast a sleeved versus non-sleeved block.

 

[Scooby5959]

That is not the point

I read on boatdiesel.com the 3208 can be bored at least once and rebuilt, my 3208NA’s feel very strong at 2800 hours and 30 years old, and I’ll be doing everything possible to keep them running.

It seems boat ownership for the average human is about trying to control the cash haemorrhage, but of course for the fully dedicated (ok, obsessed ) boat owner, it’s easier to allocate spare funds.

Of course you will do everything you can to get all the life out of your current engine once the hand writing is on the wall it would be a bad investment to go through all the trouble of removing rebuilding and reinstalling an engine that isn’t designed to be rebuilt in the boat. Do whatever you want I wouldn’t go through all that trouble and end up with the same thing

 

[Larry M]

There has been some discussion about replacing vs rebuilding. I went through the exercise in 2010. At the time it was $10k for a complete out of the boat over haul (it’s about $13k today). That included new valves, pistons, head manga fluxed, crank ground, all new bolt components except alternators, etc. A replacement was north of $35-39k.

With twin engines and only needed to rebuild one, why spend what the boat is probably worth in new engines?

Here’s a copy of the email I received regarding the replacements.

G'day, Larry.

We would have several recommendations for you to consider, and really what it comes down to is your cruising speed expectations along with the required hours of durability, or cruising range either at normal operating RPM, or for extended range operations.

First, visit our web-site, www.northern-lights, and under Lugger engine models L1064A or L1066T engines copy the brochures, for reference. In addition, for purposes of consumption comparatives, remember that 1 gallon of diesel should produce 20HP at the transmission input shaft, with a 3% estimated parasitic loss in the transmission.

Taking your average fuel consumption of your Lehman Ford, probably somewhere between 2 to 3 gallons per hour, you were using 40-60 HP to cruise your KK-42 between 7-8 knots, and when you compare this to either engine performance, your would be operating your engine at less than 50% of the rated capacity for the engines.

The physical dimensions of the engines will compare very close to your existing Lehman, the L1064A engine would be shorter of course, since it is only a 4 cylinder engine. To elaborate further, both Lugger models begin life as John Deere Industrial engines, then we marinize the engines to suit our requirements which are somewhat different from the standard John Deere Marine engines, also available to you and standard on all current KK models. Since we have been marinizing the Deere engine for 25 years longer than Deere, we think we know something about what is required for our customers, so we continue to use their engine, done our way.

So you will have options, from very limited changes in the scope of supply between your existing engine, 12V, single high amperage alternator, HE cooling, Twin Disc or ZF transmission with a 2 1/2 to 1 reduction gear, wiring harness, panel, wet exhaust elbow, all matching what you have, so it can slip into the engine spaces without any severe compromises. But, what other changes would you wish to make, such as stabilizers, thrusters, dual alternators, drive options for other solutions, and etc, that you would want to incorporate into your repower project?

Pricing will range from $34,500 to $39,000, depending upon the model selected and the transmission requirements, and available accessory options tailored to your requirements.
Fit should be very close to your existing Lehman, and if you wish to receive a quotation, we would first request that your complete the application questionnaire available on the web-site.

I hope that you will continue your interest and respond with a quotation request that results from receiving your questionnaire. You may be directed to one of our offices that may be closer to you, so if an inspection and consultation is necessary, we can accommodate your interest and timing.

Thank you for your interest and we look forward to your response.


Regards, Steve Scholz,
Director, Asia Pacific Marine Market

 

[SteveK]

A sleeved block allows the engine to be rebuilt "in frame" with no need to pull the engine block. Sleeves return the cylinder walls to original condition with no need for machining and allow for numerous rebuilds using the same block. Boring a block removes metal and thins the cylinder walls, thus limiting the number of rebuilds.

These may not be significant advantages for a boat, particularly one that is used recreationally, but it explains how a heavy equipment mechanic might contrast a sleeved versus non-sleeved block.

no argument that a sleeve rebuild is preferred over honing or boring.

But explain how that allows the engine to remain in place with no need to pull the block. my engines rest between two stringers over top of a bathtub which collects stray fluids. In other words no way to remove the pan let alone the crank to replace bearings or rods.
Boring and honing to me are two different things. One increases piston size the other trues cylinder to use same pistons again.

 

[Scooby5959]

I know people hate this when I say it but anyways another good reason not to buy twins getting past that . normally you can strip the engine down remove the head manifolds accessories that get in your way and then you’re usually able to jack the engine up high enough to drop the pan .so the advantage would be Not having to take the engine out of the boat and also A better outcome with sleeves

 

[SteveK]

I know people hate this when I say it but anyways another good reason not to buy twins getting past that . normally you can strip the engine down remove the head manifolds accessories that get in your way and then you’re usually able to jack the engine up high enough to drop the pan .so the advantage would be Not having to take the engine out of the boat and also A better outcome with sleeves

Why are you beating this to death?

Neither type of engine sleeve or not has to be removed from the boat, just lifted up enough to work upon. However some will ship the engine out whether it is sleeved or not. Your argument on what is better is mute, now you throw in the twins/no twins argument. Give it a rest.

 

[mickand]

It must be confusing for many, when a marine diesel engine is called a 'throwaway'. We need to banish this word from the forum for clarity.
There's no such thing, as all engines can be rebuilt in one form or another.
It would have to be a severely damaged block that couldn't be bored out and oversize pistons fitted. We did it all the time in the old days driving around in old beaters when the cost of a new car engine would have bought you 20 more beaters.
Every boat will benefit from exhaust temp alarms such as Borel to help with preventing an overheat rebuild in the first place and they only cost around $75 each.
I have 40 year old Lehmans and in the last 6 years have put on over 4,000hrs.
My last boat had Cummins 5.9's so I don't have a Lehman fetish, but I do like them.

 

[va3mrj]

I gather the engine was overheated when the waterpump failed. An overheated engine needs to be rebuilt by a good mechanic or engine overhaul shop. This is not a DIY.

 

[SteveK]

I gather the engine was overheated when the waterpump failed. An overheated engine needs to be rebuilt by a good mechanic or engine overhaul shop. This is not a DIY.

Not DIY but a good mechanic. Why not a great mechanic?
If you pay closer attention, there are many good mechanics on this forum who are not mechanics by their job description.

 

[catalinajack]

It must be confusing for many, when a marine diesel engine is called a 'throwaway'. We need to banish this word from the forum for clarity.
There's no such thing, as all engines can be rebuilt in one form or another.
It would have to be a severely damaged block that couldn't be bored out and oversize pistons fitted. We did it all the time in the old days driving around in old beaters when the cost of a new car engine would have bought you 20 more beaters.
Every boat will benefit from exhaust temp alarms such as Borel to help with preventing an overheat rebuild in the first place and they only cost around $75 each.
I have 40 year old Lehmans and in the last 6 years have put on over 4,000hrs.
My last boat had Cummins 5.9's so I don't have a Lehman fetish, but I do like them.

Not to mention that, according to Bob Smith, a maintained Lehman will last at least 15,000 hours before MAYBE needing a rebuild. A throwaway? So what even if it is which it is not. Plenty of rebuilt Lehmans out there on their second 15,000 hour life.

 

[Comodave]

Actually Bob told me that the Chesapeake watermen brought them in around 20K hours for preventative rebuilds. Absolutely nothing wrong with Lehmans other than they are old technology, but then again maybe that isn’t all bad either.

 

[Jmarsh203]

Sorry but I would have to agree with scooby on the leighmans It’s a high maintenance throwaway motor. I’ve got two in my boat now and I’ll run them until they start giving me problems but I would never waste the money rebuilding them. Yea it’s a 15,000 hour motor but in the commercial world that’s not worth anything and would be considered exactly what it is a throwaway motor. A 210hp Cummins 6bt which is for all intensive purposes is very similar in Weight and cubic inches will generally last 25,000 hours between rebuilds with the cylinders staying in spec until the 3-4 rebuild. 150hp jd 4045 will last easily over 30k between rebuilds a 250hp 6068 over 40k between rebuilds and can be rebuilt indefinitely and easily since they are wet liner cylinders. The real question on if it’s a good motor or not would be if they were still making them would anyone realistically consider them for a new build. The answer would absolutely be no on a Ford Leighman, I wouldn’t wast the money on swapping a motor that was running fine but my cutoff is an injector pump rebuild for my leighmans, and I won’t be changing injector pump oil every 50 hours like they want me too, stupidest design ever. And 200 hour oil changes is excessive as well. I’ve seen commercial engines hit 40k hours with nothing but valve adjustments with 1000 hour oil change intervals. Sorry an engine hitting 15,000 hour with in my opinion requiring excessive maintenance to get there and maybe not being able to be rebuilt when it does get there isn’t super impressive. It’s sufficient for MOST pleasure boaters but that’s all I can give it. If I had a boat and one of them needed to come out they would both come out and be replace with something Better. I’d be happier with a pair of Detroit 4-53s I’d prob keep them if that’s what I had in my boat. Btw anyone with a pair of Detroit 4-53s with twin disk transmissions I’d be very happy making a trade with some Ford Leighman 120s with velvet drives.

 

[BruceK]

Sorry but I would have to agree with scooby ....

How novel.

 

[Jmarsh203]

Funny how a Detroit diesel an engine designed over 20 years prior to a Leighman is still regularly found in fishing boats and the commercial world, with still worldwide service and and parts availability. Now to me that would be the test on if a motor stacks up or not. Every Detroit diesel in regular N/A configuration Cummins 6bt, C series, 855 big cam, jd 4045, 6068, numerous inline 6 and v8 Cats all stand the test of time for amazing commercial service.

 

[rgano]

Funny how a Detroit diesel an engine designed over 20 years prior to a Leighman is still regularly found in fishing boats and the commercial world, with still worldwide service and and parts availability. Now to me that would be the test on if a motor stacks up or not. Every Detroit diesel in regular N/A configuration Cummins 6bt, C series, 855 big cam, jd 4045, 6068, numerous inline 6 and v8 Cats all stand the test of time for amazing commercial service.

I believe a good part of the advantage the Detroit has was the tens of thousands of them used in landing and other craft in WWII. They caught on after the war due to their overabundance on the give-away market the armed forces had then. Imagine if it had been any other engine of similar durability - the Detroit, what's that?

 

[DNT99611]

I have always been a fan of Cats and Cummings. I was ragging my old fishing partner for his DD371. He finally had enough and told me he averages 6000 hours a year and rebuilds the jimmy every 5 years. Engine is now on it's fourth rebuild. I know he has never been one to go crazy over maintenance so I have to think they are pretty darn good engines. One other great thing is you will never be broke down waiting for a geek and his laptop.

 

[psneeld]

Wow...just how limited thinking can be?

Sure no one would probably spec a Lehman for a new build.

But that's not really the issue here.

Why change engines for 4X the cost of a different engine with all the changes to install when a rebuilt drop in that will outlast you as the owner and not cost so much out of pocket that you will never recover?

Plus WHAT major maintenance along the way? Many Lehman owner like myself go decades with just simple stuff typical of all and in my experience....FAR...FAR less money than many new engines I have operated.

Apples and oranges for the most part.....so not quite sure why the discussion has even gone this far.

 

[NVR II Nauti]

After reading Scooby's comments in this thread and a couple of others I have determined that he offers nothing of value, just a bunch of incoherent, unfounded blather. Now, when I see his screen name, I ignore his posting. I suggest others do the same. Perhaps he will do us all a favor and go away.

+1

 

[angus99]

Apples and oranges for the most part.....so not quite sure why the discussion has even gone this far.

My thoughts exactly. This is about what’s acceptable for a given purpose—reliability in pleasure boats—not absolute longevity in uses that have nothing to do with boating. A “throwaway” to a diesel mechanic can be a lifelong investment for a pleasure boater—times 3.

By some people’s logic razor blades are useless if they don’t last a decade.

 

[FF]

Funny how a Detroit diesel an engine designed over 20 years prior to a Leighman is still regularly found in fishing boats and the commercial world, with still worldwide service and and parts availability.

The 71 series still has unique advantages found on no other engine in the free world.

It can be set up to be serviced from whichever side you choose.

The rotation can be changed left or right as desired ,

Full power can be obtained from either end.

Other useful features , it can be operated cont. at full power

Some for minesweepers had aluminum blocks , much lighter.

And for some the ability to winterize by pulling a bolt in each air box and spraying preserving oil into the cylinder is useful.

A load of 20-30HP per cylinder allows a really long life.

 

[Scooby5959]

Sorry but I would have to agree with scooby on the leighmans It’s a high maintenance throwaway motor. I’ve got two in my boat now and I’ll run them until they start giving me problems but I would never waste the money rebuilding them. Yea it’s a 15,000 hour motor but in the commercial world that’s not worth anything and would be considered exactly what it is a throwaway motor. A 210hp Cummins 6bt which is for all intensive purposes is very similar in Weight and cubic inches will generally last 25,000 hours between rebuilds with the cylinders staying in spec until the 3-4 rebuild. 150hp jd 4045 will last easily over 30k between rebuilds a 250hp 6068 over 40k between rebuilds and can be rebuilt indefinitely and easily since they are wet liner cylinders. The real question on if it’s a good motor or not would be if they were still making them would anyone realistically consider them for a new build. The answer would absolutely be no on a Ford Leighman, I wouldn’t wast the money on swapping a motor that was running fine but my cutoff is an injector pump rebuild for my leighmans, and I won’t be changing injector pump oil every 50 hours like they want me too, stupidest design ever. And 200 hour oil changes is excessive as well. I’ve seen commercial engines hit 40k hours with nothing but valve adjustments with 1000 hour oil change intervals. Sorry an engine hitting 15,000 hour with in my opinion requiring excessive maintenance to get there and maybe not being able to be rebuilt when it does get there isn’t super impressive. It’s sufficient for MOST pleasure boaters but that’s all I can give it. If I had a boat and one of them needed to come out they would both come out and be replace with something Better. I’d be happier with a pair of Detroit 4-53s I’d prob keep them if that’s what I had in my boat. Btw anyone with a pair of Detroit 4-53s with twin disk transmissions I’d be very happy making a trade with some Ford Leighman 120s with velvet drives.

Said better than I obviously could that’s all I was trying to say .And believe it or not I was trying to be fairly nice I actually like to call the Lemans boat anchors

 

[Scooby5959]

Exactly

Funny how a Detroit diesel an engine designed over 20 years prior to a Leighman is still regularly found in fishing boats and the commercial world, with still worldwide service and and parts availability.

The 71 series still has unique advantages found on no other engine in the free world.

It can be set up to be serviced from whichever side you choose.

The rotation can be changed left or right as desired ,

Full power can be obtained from either end.

Other useful features , it can be operated cont. at full power

Some for minesweepers had aluminum blocks , much lighter.

And for some the ability to winterize by pulling a bolt in each air box and spraying preserving oil into the cylinder is useful.

A load of 20-30HP per cylinder allows a really long life.

I love the 71 series .I had a Hatteras sport fish years ago with a pair of them Hydro lock two Cylinders replace those two cylinders I think the boat still running

 

[Swa]

Hey maybe a face to face at the dock would settle this post... I'll take the overhaul guy

 

[jleonard]

Hey maybe a face to face at the dock would settle this post... I'll take the overhaul guy

Best reply yet!

 

[Comodave]

Wow...just how limited thinking can be?

Sure no one would probably spec a Lehman for a new build.

But that's not really the issue here.

Why change engines for 4X the cost of a different engine with all the changes to install when a rebuilt drop in that will outlast you as the owner and not cost so much out of pocket that you will never recover?

Plus WHAT major maintenance along the way? Many Lehman owner like myself go decades with just simple stuff typical of all and in my experience....FAR...FAR less money than many new engines I have operated.

Apples and oranges for the most part.....so not quite sure why the discussion has even gone this far.

Absolutely.

 

[Southern Boater]

Wow...just how limited thinking can be?

Sure no one would probably spec a Lehman for a new build.

But that's not really the issue here.

Why change engines for 4X the cost of a different engine with all the changes to install when a rebuilt drop in that will outlast you as the owner and not cost so much out of pocket that you will never recover?

Plus WHAT major maintenance along the way? Many Lehman owner like myself go decades with just simple stuff typical of all and in my experience....FAR...FAR less money than many new engines I have operated.

Apples and oranges for the most part.....so not quite sure why the discussion has even gone this far.

Exactly, couldn’t agree more.

Somebody mentioned above the Cummins 5.9 litre and the huge engine hours achieved, this is also a parent bore block with no removable sleeves. We run the QSB versions of this engine in a commercial boat at 350hp (max at 450hp) averaging around 2350 rpm, averaging 1600 hrs per season.
Good engines with 250 hour servicing, oil consumption starts around 5000 hours, gets more so at 10,000 with exhaust smoke developing and by 12,000 hrs the exhaust smoke is horrible and they drink oil and need replacing. The local Cummins dealer says other commercial marine operators get a lot less hours between replacement, which I guess is lack of maintenance and general operating practices.

 

[Jmarsh203]

The 12v version 220-260hp were much more reliable but less fuel efficient than the new common rail 24v qsb engines, really too much power for shooting for super high hours, if I needed 350hp and had the weight allowance I’d be looking at a C series or if weight really didn’t matter 855 big cam, both of which do have removable sleeves. I like the Cummins 4 and 6B series motors but they also still considered throwaway motors, prob the best sub 6 liter non liner diesel ever produced so they absolutely deserved an honorable mention but generally after the 2nd rebuild will be thrown away. And yes for a new build I would consider a 12v Cummins 6BT even though I and anyone in the commercial world would consider them throwaway motors lol there is a small window where you need to keep weight down and power up on lighter boats that throwaway motors fit the bill for perfectly. There are not many sub 6 liter motors ever built with removable liners, perkins 6,354 is one of very few motors that are and it weights I believe 2-300lbs more and physically larger than the non liner motors. the 12v Cummins were so good they are still built brand new not recon motors to this day, I see brand new ones built in Italy imported into the US and used as pump motors on barges all the time, also see 4-71, 6-71, and 8-71 on them as well so.... Yea we are using qsb nowadays as generators on new boat builds and we are pretty eh about them as well. We are seeing slightly higher hours than what you are seeing but just barely but they are constant speed generators set at 1,800 rpm and should be doing much better, also suprised been seeing front main seal failure around 15000 hours. We are stretching tbo out to 20k hours but at that point they really need it. I’ve seen the jd 6068 100kw generators smoke past 40k hours with nothing but idler pullys and valve adjustments every 10k hours and 500 hour oil changes. After one week of running 24/7 you needed to add 1 gallon of oil, no visible smoke, no more fuel consumption than new. Cost 30% more than the Cummins but much much better engine. They will still reliably hit 30-35k hours as a main propulsion unit in a boat.

 

[angus99]

This entire thread is about jargon. What may be a “throwaway” to some techs looking to wring the last dollar out of engines in continuous commercial operation that may require multiple re-builds over their operating life has no applicability to pleasure boating.

Applying this jargon to engines that have been running pleasure boats without needing a rebuild—assuming proper care—for decades is just babble that implies inferiority and misleads people who may not be familiar with them.

Prior to the Space Shuttle, weren’t most orbital space craft and the rockets that propelled them considered “throw-always”?

Like to hear from Ski on this.