Left turn Clide. Going Hybrid?

[ScottC]

[FONT=&quot]I'll share some more detail regarding my diesel/hybrid experience. It may seem long and rambling, but I think it may contain some information that could be useful for making an informed decision.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Firstly, for the Greenline 33, LOA = 32.77 feet. LWL=32.32 feet. Yes, you read that correctly. It's has basically a vertical bow, like some sailboats. Published draught is 2.46 feet for the lighter non-hybrid model, dry/empty. For the heavier, hybrid model, loaded with fuel, water, thruster batteries, bicycles and other gear for long-distance cruising the draught can come to 3 feet.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I bought my 2010 GL33 (in 2011). It came with a 48v (11kw 240Ah) LiPo battery and a solar panel array having a total maximum rated output of 1.3kw. Electric motor is 7kw (doubles as a 5kw generator for charging while in diesel mode). Diesel engine is 165hp. The marketing material at the time indicated one could cruise 20nm on electric. It also indicated that it could go 6 knots on electric. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Imagine my surprise when I found I could only go for 60-75 minutes at 6 knots! I’ve learned a LOT about electric propulsion, batteries and charging since then and Greenline has moderated their marketing material too. The original marketing claim of 20nm was made for a nearly empty boat (sitting high in the water -> less friction drag) on a PERFECT day with no wind, no waves, no current, inverter not running and most likely a single person on board. Hello! Does anyone ever really cruise like that? Oh, and they failed to mention that to achieve the aforementioned 20nm, one would have to run in this manner no faster than about 4 knots. Thus, the literature was, ummm, shall we say optimistic in the extreme! There was a lot of discussion online over the years on that. Greenline’s literature today, I believe, is not quite so “optimistic” and also provides more clarity about assumptions and conditions for the numbers they claim. STILL, I would not use the numbers claimed directly in order to make your decision. You need to apply an adjustment factor to these numbers to bring them into the real world. So, I will share some experience below that I hope will help.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]With my 11kw 48v battery, 7kw motor, solar panel array (providing ~10-25 Amps input) fully loaded boat, 2 passengers, inverter on (consuming ~7 amps to run the 220v refrigerator, phone & pc chargers, stereo and towel warmer), I have experienced the following:[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Canal cruising, with little wind and no current: Max ~18nm @ 3.3 knots (the typical speed limit in European canals)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Cruising in the sea, <1 foot waves and light wind: Max ~10nm @ 4.5 knots[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Cruising in the sea, <1 foot waves and light wind: Max ~6nm @ 5.5 knots[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I did an experiment: no wind, no current, no inverter, loaded boat, 2 passengers, moderately sunny summer day at 55 degrees north latitude (i.e. ~45 degree angle of sun above the horizon). Found I could go 2.1 knots with “infinite” range. i.e. the solar panels were providing as much power as the motor was consuming.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]FYI – running the 7kw motor (and nothing else) wide open draws 138 Amps.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Also, keep in mind that having any growth on the bottom can easily draw down the performance by 10-20%.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Furthermore, keep in mind that the Greenline hull is basically a sailboat hull. As such, it is designed to go through the water with a minimum of resistance. Not sure about your Carver hull design, but I suspect it was meant for “big power” and speed and not efficiency.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I fear I have not painted such a pretty picture for electric cruising, but don’t misinterpret! I love it and would buy the same boat if I were to do it all over again. Here’s why I like electric cruising:[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]1) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The silence[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The electric motor is low torque and enables precision handling when docking, locking and going under bridges with questionable clearance. Virtually eliminates the risk of damage from a handling mistake[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Having household current available at all times. Nice not to have to run the generator while at anchor![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The silence[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The electric motor also serves as a “get home” option if the diesel engine should fail. Had this happen once in a stormy 3 foot wave scenario and it got me safely to port.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Did I mention? The silence![/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Notice that I did not mention “to save on fuel costs” above! [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Electric cruising may net you less out-of-pocket for long-distance canal cruising when you can cruise daily on battery and charge up nightly at marinas (generally for no additional fee… however I expect this will change as electric boating becomes more popular). For general cruising, however, you won’t save enough money to make a dent in your overall boating expense. In fact it might be the other way around, if you factor in having to replace a LiPo battery every 8-10 years. I just replaced mine, along with a new BMS to ensure its long-range health. €17,000. Looked into trying to replace it with a larger battery, but nothing compatible existed. Also considered adding a second battery, but size and weight precluded that. Also, as somebody already rightly pointed out in this thread, charging batteries while running on diesel is great to be able to do, but it is inefficient compared to charging while plugged into shore power. Every time you convert energy from one form to another, you lose some. Just physics.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Finally, I don’t believe all the marketing claims about electric cruising being environmentally friendly. Consider the environmental cost of manufacturing and disposing of solar panels. Same for batteries.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]So, you really need to think carefully about WHY you want to do electric cruising. If saving on fuel costs comes near the top of your list, then I would think again about converting your boat fully to hybrid. I also would think about how docking, locking and maneuvering might be with a ½ electric and ½ diesel setup. I can’t imagine it would be a very friendly experience to use just one engine or the other or both, given that they will have dramatically different torques, rpm’s and possibly even propeller sizes.[/FONT]

 

[Mako]

For long range cruising, hybrid will never be as efficient as directly driven, unless there is some other source of energy (like seawater ).

Now THAT was funny!

So whatever happened to that guy? I was enjoying that thread and was getting ready to invest $50 million that I inherited from my Nigerian uncle

 

[stubones99]

Are you talking about this guy?
https://www.joiscientific.com/

 

[JD Ray]

At least one math error is the in the beginning of the second paragraph. The 33 will cruise for 25 nm/ 7nmph for 3.6hrs, not 5.7hrs. That throws things off later on.
...
Now I'm assuming you are running this as an electric boat because you really value quiet running. ... Anyway, you get back to your slip and plug in. If you have a 50A/240V shore power connection, that produces 12kw when running at full capacity. It will take about 7hrs running at full tilt to recharge, and most people would cringe at the thought of running a shore power connection at full power continuously. So let's assume you cna throttle is down to say 75% power, you are now up to about 9hrs of charge time. Again, this might be fine for your usage pattern, but understand that it will be giving your shore power a real workout.

Thank you for checking my math. Frankly, even if a boat in this size class took 20 kW to run at 7 kts, I'd be happy.

Your description of the usage pattern matches what I believe our intended use is, and frankly what I've determined through ad hoc surveys that a lot of people do: cruise for a few hours, park, cruise for a few hours, park, go home, with total mileage over three days being under 100. If you only have to run a reasonably-sized genset a little (three or four hours) over that amount of time during the entire trip, and you're running silent the rest of the time, then I count that as a win. If 200 gallons of diesel on board gives you several hundred (a thousand?) miles of range, then that's brilliant. From what I understand, it's a rare trawler user who wants to run 24 hours a day for even a few days.

 

[StarChaser]

JDRay,

Agreed I will not have room for all 20K, I'll use as much as I can over the Flybridge as as a bimini, 'll add as much as I can over the aft deck between the Radar Arch and the tender.

The Genset is not originally for Marine use. I know how to do the conversion. The biggest issues are the the exhaust manifold, Heat exchanger, & oil cooler. All of those I can fabricate in my shop for the cost of materials.



ScottC,

I plan on Cruising the Loop once I retire in 4 years. 0-30 Nm/day, Speed will depend on power available. Anchor out or stay in a marina as I want. Star is a

semi-displacement hull and with her 9.0L Internationals she'll do 20knt WOT burning ~22Gal/hr total. If I throttle back to 2200rpm I get 15knt burning ~6Gal/hr. The really funny/sad thing is that when I run the port engine at 2200 & pull the starboard prop, I get 10knts @ 3Gal/hr. This makes me think that Star is seriously overpowered and that her hull becomes inefficient over 18knt. That makes me think that Star will be "happier" cruising at a lower speed for longer distances.

My reason for considering going Hybrid is because the Starboard engine may be dead. If it is, then repowering to a series hybrid system may make sense. If I do have to repower to a hybrid, then I'll lose ~#7000 from removing the engines, Another #800 from the Genset. Add #1500 for the 30kw Genset, and I still have #6800 less weight to push through the water. That means that Star goes from ~#18000 (loaded) to ~11200.

 

[JD Ray]

Did you remember to add in the weight of the batteries, motor, and controller? 14 Tesla batteries will run about 500#, and the motor has got some heft to it as well.

 

[StarChaser]

JD Ray

No, I haven't. So 28 batteries, & 2 motors ~#1500-#2000, so #13200. Still less to push through the water and (Hopefully) more efficiency.

At the moment I can't do anything with Star. The marina has locked everyone out and expelled the liveaboards from the marina until after Covid is done. I'm hoping to to get back to work in June-July.

 

[JD Ray]

How much battery are you looking to have? 28 Tesla units (lightest and cheapest per kWh) would make for ~148 kWh, or ~200 miles of cruising (maybe) at 6-7 knots. That's ~33 hours at the helm without pulling over for a recharge. Seems like a lot to me. Also, that's $45K in batteries alone.

 

[StarChaser]

JD Ray,
At this point I really don't know how many batteries I'll need. I'd rather have too much power than too little. I was thinking of salvaging the battery packs from one type of vehicle, probably Honda simply because I have a Civic Hybrid and have refurbished the battery pack in it. Not difficult if you have the right recharger. Those battery packs are fairly readily available, inexpensive, and can be refurbished if necessary. They weigh about #45, can be put in parallel, and are ~9"x15"x18"each. I'll put them in pairs, probably 2-3 sets of batteries per side to extend range. They do need cool air around them for maximum lifespan and fire protection which I can supply from the existing fresh air intakes. I "may" even salvage the entire drive train minus the engine and use a small diesel in place of the Gas engine. I'm not interested at all in putting gas on Star. My nephew has a friend bow his SeaRay up by not turning on the blowers. I'll stick with Diesel, it doesn't go Boom.



Star

 

[JD Ray]

Also of note, a ~2011 Nissan Leaf has all the components you need for around $3500.

 

[DDW]

Are you talking about this guy?
https://www.joiscientific.com/

I hadn't looked at the website before. What a masterpiece of non-information. The CTO is a software guy (not hardware, not physics, not chemistry). I think his concept is (in pseudocode):

1 Begin;
2 Something = Nothing
3 GoTo 1;

They offer lots of opportunities to partner with them, which no doubt involves the one way exchange of money.

 

[stubones99]

I hadn't looked at the website before. What a masterpiece of non-information. The CTO is a software guy (not hardware, not physics, not chemistry). I think his concept is (in pseudocode):

1 Begin;
2 Something = Nothing
3 GoTo 1;

They offer lots of opportunities to partner with them, which no doubt involves the one way exchange of money.

I thought you guys would enjoy that...
How to bilk investors out of $$$ and eventually decide it didn't work after all...
Newton's law of thermodynamics proven (again) You get nothing for nothing.

But he does have good marketing and has gotten lots of big names to "partner" with him on his quest.

 

[JD Ray]

Here's more grist for the mill: Marine - New Electric ENNew Electric EN