Laser rust remover getting affordable?

[LeoKa]

I have been searching for a renting laser rust/paint remover equipment. I was not lucky so far. At least not in the PNW area. My steel hull needs a serious cleaning, but yards do not want to allow blasting anymore for DIY boar owners.
The laser tool would be perfect, since it is very environmental friendly and based on the videos I have seen, it could handle surfaces, which are impossible to clean with sanders. My boat’s hull has plenty of those.
I understand that a laser tool is quite slow, - if you have a smaller unit, - but if I have something plenty as a retired person, is time. Of course, large industries can afford very powerful laser equipment ( navy, Air Force, commercial shipping, etc. ), which can handle large surfaces. Their budget is bit bigger then mine.
Few years ago, I had a conversation with a private business, which would consider renting me an equipment like this for a week for about 3K. He would not be interested in renting for 2-3 days only, which I think the hull cleaning would take in my case. So, I postponed the deal.
Recently I started to look around on the subject again. Prices come down significantly, although a basic level equipment is still hovering in the 10-15K price range to buy from a US company.
But.
If I go to the well known Asian online source, some of the basic level laser cleaning equipment can be as low as 1-3K. That price is something I would consider as a good investment. If I store it somewhere and use it every 2-3 years once, it will recover its price very quickly. Yes, with a smaller equipment I will need more than 2-3 days, but sanding would take even longer. Again, the hull/rudder/beam has countless corners and angles, which is very difficult to clean down to base metal.
Hiring a company today for blasting a steel hull is still over 10K in our area and the results are not guaranteed. This was the case with my boat. The previous owner paid over 21K for a full hull blasting and painting job at a reputable yard here. The first thing the diver told me when he cleaned the hull just few years after, was that the hull has blisters all over. I still have the video he gave me as the new owner of the boat.
What I don’t know, if those prices are for refurbished and used equipment, or it is false advertising? Or, the prices came down that much? The web site I am referring to has the word express in it. You can look it up yourself.
I am looking for opinions on the buy, or not to buy, of a laser ablation equipment? Has anyone ever used one? If yes, how productive the cleaning process was? Pro, or contra, of this surface cleaning for metal boats? Or just your idea of buying versus renting it? Thanks.

 

[Portage_Bay]

The previous owner paid over 21K for a full hull blasting and painting job at a reputable yard here. The first thing the diver told me when he cleaned the hull just few years after, was that the hull has blisters all over. I still have the video he gave me as the new owner of the boat.

I ran and managed the yard work on steel boats for decades. Following one blast to near white and full repaint the underwater area developed blisters. Next haul out at a different yard the yard supervisor said they were solvent blisters and not to worry. Sure enough we kept the antifouling up for years, the blisters never popped. Many yard periods later when it was time for the next blast to near white I popped some of the blisters before blasting. The steel under the blisters was in good shape. Turned out he was an honest yard sup, he could have easily talked us into another blast to near white and full repaint.

In my opinion the blisters are the result of not carefully and exactly follow the paint manufacturer's instructions. Prep, mixing, temperature and humidity during application and finally top coating. Coatings for a steel boat, even for a workboat finish, are technically sophisticated. Don't just roll 'em on and think that's all there is to it.

 

[LeoKa]

Good advice, thanks.

Have you used any laser tools during your years?

 

[Portage_Bay]

Good advice, thanks.

Have you used any laser tools during your years?

No. Yards did the heavy work. Early on "sand" blasting, actual material was slag. Later years high pressure water blasting. I personally have done spot work with sand blasting, real sand. Grinder and needle gun. Never used laser.

 

[LeoKa]

No. Yards did the heavy work. Early on "sand" blasting, actual material was slag. Later years high pressure water blasting. I personally have done spot work with sand blasting, real sand. Grinder and needle gun. Never used laser.

Have you seen videos of the laser tools? What is your opinion? Something to consider?

 

[Portage_Bay]

A bit more. If you already know this please disregard. Coatings don't chemically bond to steel. It's all about getting a clean surface with the proper profile. Nothing is as good as abrasive blasting to near white. Leaving just the right roughness the coatings will adhere to. And keeping it dry and clean until coating. Water blasting for example works best on a previously abrasive blasted surface. It removes old coatings and light rust leaving the abrasive blasted profile. I imagine laser is the same, removing old coatings and some rust. Heavier rust, the kind that shows as built up scale or deep pitting needs abrasive blasting, grinder or needle gun. Not sanding. You don't want a smooth shiny surface.

 

[LeoKa]

The laser is also capable to remove only one or few layers of paint. If that is case, perhaps the existing primer can be left alone, and it will not be necessary to go down to white metal. I did not really see rust below waterline, so that is not the problem. Blisters and barnacle footsteps could be.
When I haul the boat out again, my goal is to create a nice even painted surface and adding anti fouling. It does not have to be perfection. This is slow boat. However, the barnacles are getting on my nerves. I believe by using a laser tool can speed up this work and it will be less messy. Painting is easy work. Preparing the surface is different challenge.

 

[DDW]

I know nothing about laser cleaning. However lasers used in other industries are normally gas lasers, and have a limited lifetime. The lifetime isn't so much the number of hours run, but rather the calendar time it takes for the gas to leak out. It is somewhat unpredictable. The tubes are expensive to replace. Before you buy one with the expectation of using it a little every few years, it would be advisable to research the shelf life of the tube and the replacement cost.

 

[smitty477]

I have never used laser cleaning equipment for steel or marine applications but had used lasers extensively for many years ending about 10 years back. Unless there have been very large changes in this equipment you may want to ask about and/or expect these challenges....very small work area, long delay time over surface, tight focal range, ability to keep lenses clean, high power required for unit (220), high heat loads, beam frequency material sensitive, equipment duty cycle is limited, maintenance cycles of equipment.

 

[ranger58sb]

This was the case with my boat. The previous owner paid over 21K for a full hull blasting and painting job at a reputable yard here. The first thing the diver told me when he cleaned the hull just few years after, was that the hull has blisters all over.

Following one blast to near white and full repaint the underwater area developed blisters. Next haul out at a different yard the yard supervisor said they were solvent blisters and not to worry. Sure enough we kept the antifouling up for years, the blisters never popped. Many yard periods later when it was time for the next blast to near white I popped some of the blisters before blasting. The steel under the blisters was in good shape.

So "blisters" on a steel hull not (usually) the same as blisters in an FRP hull?

Just a paint thing, on a steel hull?

-Chris

 

[Portage_Bay]

So "blisters" on a steel hull not (usually) the same as blisters in an FRP hull?



Just a paint thing, on a steel hull?



-Chris

Blisters on a steel hull are a problem with the coatings. The steel under the coatings unless in contact with water and oxygen to cause rust is fine.

Blisters on a FRP hull indicate water has penetrated the hull structure.
From https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice/expert-advice-archive/2019/march/blister-repair

Water soluble chemicals inside the laminate exert an osmotic pull on water outside, and some water molecules find a way through the gelcoat. As more water is attracted into the enclosed space, internal pressure builds. The water molecules aren't squirted back out the way they came in because they have combined with the attracting chemicals into a solution with a larger molecular structure. Instead, the pressure pushes the covering gelcoat into a dome — a blister.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

I don't think lasers work well or at all on paint. I would not be surprised if your boat has paint five or more layers deep. Find a yard that allows soda blasters and bite the bullet and pay to have it done.

pete

 

[Portage_Bay]

Sand blasting is preferred for steel. Soda blasting for softer surfaces such as fiberglass.

From https://www.abitl.com/soda-blasting-vs-sand-blasting/

Sand blasting is most often used on metal due to the strength of the media and air pressure. It is one of the most efficient preparation methods and the best one for rust removal.

Soda blasting is especially effective on surfaces like wood, chrome, and plastic. In other words, surfaces that are softer or require a gentler touch work well with this type of blasting, as it is less likely to damage the surface. Because of the low risk of distorting the surface, soda blasting is suitable for use on a wide variety of surfaces.

 

[ranger58sb]

Blisters on a steel hull are a problem with the coatings. The steel under the coatings unless in contact with water and oxygen to cause rust is fine.

Blisters on a FRP hull indicate water has penetrated the hull structure.

Thanks, that's the conclusion I was making my way toward...

-Chris

 

[garbler]

Like Portage Bay I spent time in shipyard paint shops but not as long he has. I ran a blasting crew at Miami Shipyard where we had both large steel yachts but USCG and NOAA vessels so prep and paint specs varied. I have to ask Leoka about the laser tool and wonder first of all how fast is it or more importantly how many square feet or area can you work and clean in let’s say 30 minutes. Not asking for real specifics just a ballpark to compare with wet or dry blasting. My concern is that this tool may only work small areas and that time is running against you since the surface needs to be cleaned again, rust inhibitor applied the primed or you’ll get surface corrosion or blushing before it’s primed.

In the shipyards I worked with the blasting crew, the follow-up surface cleaning crew and spray crew all had to work closely together. We were known as the ‘ overtime ‘ crew cause you couldn’t stop until the process was done. We would wet blast with sand or steel shot for the USCG, and when one side of the hull was done it was blown off, solvent washed and primed. Then the blasting crew moved to the other side and it was repeated. In the humidity down there you could ‘ Near-White Blast ‘, eat your lunch and come back to find the surface blushing if you didn’t use inhibitor in your water tank. I know cause we forgot to add the inhibitor once.

Wonder what type of surface does the laser leave ? How would the profile compare to ‘ Near White ‘ blasted surface ? This information is critical because all marine and industrial paint company specs require different surface profiles. I’d bet a Commercial Blast would suffice for your hull but maybe ‘ Near-White Metal Blast’ if your paint system requires it. It’s funny but after years of painting and having a brother who owned a large sand blasting company I’ve learned that painting steel can be more demanding and technical than aluminum, glass or wood. But if done by the numbers todays coatings have literally increased a hull’s life by a factor of two or three times.

Rick

 

[Shrew]

What is the cost comparison to having the hull blasted vs buying a laser tool. In most cases, it's been my experience that the limitation in "DIY Media Blasting" is the DIY portion.

A good laser tool is 10K - 15K.

 

[garbler]

That is an essentially an impossible question to answer. I know you can determine the price of a tool and after experimenting try to guesstimate production performance and cost. Sandblasting involves various grades and prices plus not all hulls are the same so the logistics of setting up, tending machinery and general access varies. Is the job ‘ White Metal ‘ the costliest, ‘ Near White Metal ‘, ‘ Commercial Blast ‘ , ‘ Sand Sweep ‘ or ‘ Brush Off Blast ‘ ? Each of these levels cost more or less plus the labor, staging costs, crane or Hi-Lift personnel work buckets. Lots of extras and I know most of these don’t apply to the size of boats on this site but it gives you an idea why it’s hard to nail down an accurate footage price unless your numbers include a comfortable creep or fudge factor

Rick

 

[smitty477]

What is the cost comparison to having the hull blasted vs buying a laser tool. In most cases, it's been my experience that the limitation in "DIY Media Blasting" is the DIY portion.

A good laser tool is 10K - 15K.

I would strongly suggest that you take a small sample or similar piece you are attempting to clean and bring it to a place where you can test the time, skill, and effectiveness of any laser cleaning tools you are contemplating.
Either get a free demo or rent the tool for the time required to really see how limited and time consuming it is to clean a few square feet to your standards.
Then look at that tool and see where it might occupy a marine yard and what it might look like after a day of constant use.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I don't want to give the impression I have more experience than I do. It sounds like you have a lot more than I. I should have worded my post more accurately. Over decades I ran and managed steel boats. I wrote the specs for the yard work and inspected the work and observed the environmental tests to be sure the coatings manufacturer's instructions were followed. Just trying to help Leoka not learn some of the lessons I learned the hard / expensive way.

Along the lines of helping Leoka the biggest DIY job I attmpted was taking a 65' steel deck down to bare metal and coating with the best 2 part epoxy coatings we could find at the time. It didn't go well. One person working alone with hand tools priming as they go didn't yield a job that held up well.

Like Portage Bay I spent time in shipyard paint shops but not as long he has. I ran a blasting crew at Miami Shipyard where we had both large steel yachts but USCG and NOAA vessels so prep and paint specs varied.

 

[garbler]

Portage Bay all I can say is you never know about somebody’s experience or credentials on these Forum do you. You may well be short changing your experience, and then who knows I could be blowing smoke. But I read some good advice from you so there.

Thing about these forums is there are all these Wikipedia experts and those who actually know more than they think they do. But I find as a rule on forums like this and others that the BS’ers almost always trip themselves up sooner or later. It’s hard to remember and keep track of fabrications or lies that you’ve never ever experienced or felt, and that’s how they get tripped up. My big beef is with the new breed of authors, those with a little depth but can’t make it in deep water. Often they write as experts in various periodicals passing themselves off as mechanics, shipwrights, surveyors or painters, etc etc. Where or how do they get the time to write and turn out this kind of work if they are supposedly working as tradesmen. At the end of the day I want my drink and kick back. When I was surveying I avg 2-2500 miles a week on the road. I’ve personally surveyed boats for five or more first time owners who in a matter of four to six years have published books on everything from varnishing to yacht maintenance ? Write and get published you are immediately a qualified expert. I’m not referring to anybody here including Steve D. who from what I can tell is an exceptional technical asset in the marine trades. This Forum is lucky to hear from him.

Rick

 

[Portage_Bay]

I’ve personally surveyed boats for five or more first time owners who in a matter of four to six years have published books on everything from varnishing to yacht maintenance ? Write and get published you are immediately a qualified expert.

You don't even have to go to the effort to write a book. Youtube makes someone an instant expert.

 

[garbler]

You don't even have to go to the effort to write a book. Youtube makes someone an instant expert.

Hadn’t even thought about that. Thanks

Rick

 

[Bmarler]

Owning a steel boat certainly has some challenges doesn’t it? I just sold mine last fall after owning it for more than 25 years. The year before I sold I had to strip the bottom to metal. Where I was, they didn’t allow blasting unfortunately. I had a mobile service lined up that would contain the boat, blast and clean up but the yard wouldn’t allow it. I was kinda stuck, so had to go to plan b. The yard allowed me to hire some on site workers to needle gun the hull. It took about two weeks to get it down to metal so I could do the replating I needed to do. It was a hugely messy job, during the stormy season. I built a cover over the whole boat to keep things dry, added heat to keep the flash rust at bay. I still have ptsd from that winters project. We carted out buckets and buckets of old bottom paint and tar epoxy that was removed.
All the work was done with consultation from a surveyor that documented everything start to finish for insurance reasons.
Don’t underestimate the sheer size of the project and the time required to get it done. Your boat will suddenly become huge about the second day into the work, and there’s only so much area that can be worked in a single day.
If I had to do it again, I’d look for a commercial yard, or one that would allow a mobile blast company to come in and make quicker work of it. The cost will work out to be the same in the end, and you’ll have a much less stressful experience.
Check with some private yards like delta, or nordlund, maybe sunfjord. Or look for an outfit that works on tugboats.
I didn’t expect to do the amount of work I ended up doing, so was stuck making the best of what I could do at the time.
Also, expect to use about double the amount of tar epoxy than you calculate. I bought about 20% extra, but needed the other 80% before I was done.
Good luck with it, if you do it right, you shouldn’t have to do it again for twenty years.

 

[Portage_Bay]

If I remember some of Leoka's older posts he's in Bremerton and his boat is not a fancy yacht finish, more workboat finish. There are still a few yards in the Puget Sound area that service work boats, will do abrasive blasting and know how to handle steel coatings. Meeting the Dept of Ecology strict standards is not easy. But he's looking to DIY. I doubt any will allow DIY or outside contractors unless the yard hires and manages the contractor.

DIY aside when dealing with the yards or their subs ask them what coatings they are experienced with. Then tell them you will purchase the coatings yourself, you don't want to turn them loose to use leftovers. When purchasing the coatings work with the vendor to write strict specifications for the job including prep, profile, mixing, thinners if any are needed, temp and humidity at time of coating. Write a contract stating the yard must follow the specs. If you can't be there to observe that specs in the contract are met hire someone to be there for you. One way I got burned early on was I failed to say that after blasting to near white the primer had to go on that day and before any rust developed. They finished blasting late in the day with rain in the forecast. It started to rain overnight and rained for several days. When I told them they had to blast again they said I'd have to pay for it. The "discussion" got pretty heated but their defense was that my contract did not say to paint immediately after blasting was finished and before any rust developed. I learned the hard way that contract writing and management is as challenging as coating steel.

You are correct that if it's done right it lasts a long time with a bit of hand touchup for scratches etc. And steel could be worth the extra trouble if the scantlings are heavy enough bring a level of safety and security that is hard to beat with any other material.

 

[LeoKa]

What is the cost comparison to having the hull blasted vs buying a laser tool. In most cases, it's been my experience that the limitation in "DIY Media Blasting" is the DIY portion.

A good laser tool is 10K - 15K.

Here is price quote from the online source I have mentioned earlier.

With 1000w, work on 110V single phase, 60HZ, its CIF price is 5150USD, with sea freight and insurance to Seattle, WA.

1. Machine configuration
# Au3tech manual laser cleaning head
# Au3tech controller with LCD screen
# 1000w MAX brand laser generator
# Water chiller water cooling system
# 10 m cable length
# 1 focusing mirror
# 5 protective lenses Transmission ≥99.95%
# 1 Safety goggles
# 1 Laser and computer cable
# Paper to wipe the lens

 

[LeoKa]

After reading the replies, my answer is that I am not an expert on hull jobs and I do not pretend to be. The two haul outs I had for this work were not very successful. Don’t ask.
Also, I am not very picky on the beauty part of a hull painting. As someone mentioned earlier, my boat is not the most attractive on the dock. But I love it as it is.
My interest on the laser tool is not about perfection. Simply the fact that it can handle corners and angles, which I cannot do with a sander. Blasting can, but I like to do things myself and it is not permitted in most yard for a DIY. Call me stubborn, but I want to do it myself. If I mess up, I can only blame myself. I told about the blisters already. I wonder whom the previous owner could blame about blisters, after paying 21K? I see his notes on the bills. He was not happy.
To those who are interested at all learning about this technology, I will post few links. If you like to read it is all there. Perhaps with more sophisticated and more expensive equipment in use, but they are there.

 

[LeoKa]

The price quote I have posted earlier was for this laser cleaner unit below.



You can see that it can handle all type of surfaces.

 

[LeoKa]

Couple videos on the equipment in action.

 

[LeoKa]

If you wish to read about this method in large industries, here are few pages.




https://www.lasertronics.com/wp/applications/ship-maintenance/

https://www.lasertronics.com/wp/technology/robotic-automation/

https://www.lasertronics.com/wp/applications/

https://www.lasertronics.com/wp/technology/

https://www.lasertronics.com/wp/

 

[Snapdragon III]

I have watched a lot of Laser cleaner video's and am lusting for one, but don't have any experience with them. I will be very interested in a report on how well it works if you end up buying one. Based on my experience with small welders I would look for a more powerful 220V version if possible.

I had a 40' aluminum trawler that had major paint/corrosion issues. I am in the PNW too and I initially wanted to do the work myself, but had the same problem you are running into that no yard will let you blast due to environmental concerns. After hiring it out I understand why. It is a HUGE mess!

I suspect a laser cleaner would be pretty slow to strip your whole hull, but it seems great for things like spot repairs, cabin and deck work, and work in the bilges. Even if it didn't leave the right texture, it would be way easier to hit the bare cleaned metal with a blaster quickly to texture it, than it would be to strip a bunch of epoxy coating off it, which takes forever, even with an huge blaster/compressor.

If you are able to find someone who will let you blast in their yard and decide to do it yourself, I would recommend renting a large diesel air compressor trailer, and getting some good blast equipment. I did my dingy with a Harbor Freight blaster, and a large gas powered contractor compressor, and it was super slow and crappy. No way you could get through a boat your size.

I ended up having LaConner maritime do my boat. They were half the price of everyone else I talked to, and did a great job. I Don't remember exactly but I think it was around $17K to blast the bottom and hull sides of my 40' trawler to bare metal, then put new barrier coat, and bottom paint on the bottom.