Larger/older vs. smaller/new for the same price

[Art]

Nick you have placed your self between a rock and a hard spot.

The Rock: Remaining time for health on Earth.

The Hard Spot: Inability to make timely decision to move forward on owning a boat.

I usually try to not put off till tomorrow what I can do today. For, tomorrow I may be incapacitated... maybe even dead! And, today I [i.e. you] am not!!

Find a boat - GO PLAY!

 

[Hippocampus]

Going to take the other side.
Old hulls with high resin to glass ratios are weaker than current infused or vacuum bagged .
Older materials aren’t as strong. Even if you don’t go to carbon fiber aramid e glass or even current weaves currently available materials are stronger.
Current adhesives are a remarkable improvement when compared to what was used in the past.
Current closed cell high density foams are stronger than what was used in the past. No reason to use baltec with its inherent problems down the road.
As long as you’re talking about stick built quality boats with no liners the strength (particularly strength/weight) durability, service life, repairability to original strength is greater with modern engineering and construction. Yes, you can’t go to any old yard for repair like you can for solid grp but take a walk through a quality yard like NEB or Hinckley and chat up the folks there. You’d likely change your mind.
Totally disagree with the prior opinions that older hulls are stronger and better. Do agree there’s more need to choose wisely when looking at series production boats.

 

[Hippocampus]

Will qualify the above thread. For FD power and non foiling or planing sail believe solid grp up to the gunnels makes sense. Especially if cruising in areas where the technology and skill set for repair isn’t available. But even here squeegeed layups are weaker.

 

[Nick14]

Going to take the other side.
Old hulls with high resin to glass ratios are weaker than current infused or vacuum bagged .
Older materials aren’t as strong. Even if you don’t go to carbon fiber aramid e glass or even current weaves currently available materials are stronger.
Current adhesives are a remarkable improvement when compared to what was used in the past.
Current closed cell high density foams are stronger than what was used in the past. No reason to use baltec with its inherent problems down the road.
As long as you’re talking about stick built quality boats with no liners the strength (particularly strength/weight) durability, service life, repairability to original strength is greater with modern engineering and construction. Yes, you can’t go to any old yard for repair like you can for solid grp but take a walk through a quality yard like NEB or Hinckley and chat up the folks there. You’d likely change your mind.
Totally disagree with the prior opinions that older hulls are stronger and better. Do agree there’s more need to choose wisely when looking at series production boats.

I'm not a naval architect, but have tried to learn as much as possible from the (many) people much smarter than I am. I think that like most things in life, the answer is, "it depends".

There have been many debates and discussions on the benefits and detriments of solid vs. cored hulls. There seem to be as many variables that can influence the answer. How thick is the layup? What type of 'glass' was used? Cloth? Mat? Roving? Kevlar? The dreaded 'chopper gun'? What type of resin? Bagged or squeegeed? What kind of core material? How thick are the inner and outer layers? Is the core there primarily for insulation, or as a primary structural element? Is the core there because the primary goal was to save money and maximize profits, or as a well-engineered and thought-through design element? Especially, what are the experience and quality of the people building it?

I respect the writings of the late David Pascoe. I know his name can be somewhat controversial, especially with brokers (a broker once said to me, "Pascoe has cost me more deals than anything else").

https://www.yachtsurvey.com/structuralissues.htm

There are exceptions to every rule. I suspect that with many boats, and with most generally used construction practices, cored hulls (below the waterline) are almost certainly stiffer than solid glass hulls, probably stronger (depending on how one defines "stronger"), but maybe less puncture resistant.

My understanding is that a cored structure is a composite, kind of like an I-beam. It can add substantial stiffness and weight-bearing capacity (if that's how one defines stronger). But depending on all the variables, it may not necessarily be as puncture resistant.

We all have our own neuroses, preferences, anxieties, and priorities. Many people prioritize performance (speed and fuel economy) over worrying about the small risk of hitting something. One of mine is puncture resistance. We're all victims of our own past experiences, and some of my formative ones included seeing the results of a boat hitting a mostly submerged railroad tie at planing speed. It punched through the cored hull like it was made of wet toilet paper.

I like to be prepared for worst-case scenarios, 'just in case'. My own personal preference would be for a modern solid glass hull made with contemporary resins, built by experienced people with a primary focus on quality. I'm happy to sacrifice some weight and performance if it would provide some more puncture resistance.

YMMV.

 

[Art]

Nick - Post # 34 - I like the way you think!

 

[Hippocampus]

Nick excellent post. I went with solid for my new build for many of reasons you mentioned. Didn’t want to check out the collision bulkheads nore doubled hulled features. But my main point was old v new construction, stick built v liner, a proper yacht v one built to a price point. Believe neither CE-A nor ABYC tells the whole story. To be political incorrect rather be in a 30 year old Nordhavn than a new price point production boat but the structural engineers haven’t been sitting on their hands. A well done new boat incorporating current materials does have a leg up imho.

 

[Nick14]

Nick - Post # 34 - I like the way you think!

Thanks Art, but when it comes to my brain, the words of the late, great, wise sage Tom Magliozzi apply: "If you don't think too good, don't think too much."

 

[Nick14]

Nick excellent post. I went with solid for my new build for many of reasons you mentioned. Didn’t want to check out the collision bulkheads nore doubled hulled features. But my main point was old v new construction, stick built v liner, a proper yacht v one built to a price point. Believe neither CE-A nor ABYC tells the whole story. To be political incorrect rather be in a 30 year old Nordhavn than a new price point production boat but the structural engineers haven’t been sitting on their hands. A well done new boat incorporating current materials does have a leg up imho.

Whenever a boat builder has told me how their cored hull is "stronger than solid glass", the first question I ask is, how do they define and measure 'strength'? Sometimes, after blank stares and some mumbling about 'getting an engineer', it usually turns out to be referring to stiffness and bending resistance.

That can be very different from puncture resistance. An eggshell is extremely stiff, especially for its weight and thickness. Puncture resistant, not so much.

A boat hitting something in the water is the same as something hitting the boat. It's a projectile impact situation. To prevent penetration you need either mass (density, weight, thickness, etc.) to absorb the energy of impact, or a sophisticated material to distribute the energy (like a bullet proof vest). One way or another the energy of impact will be absorbed and dispersed, either destructively or non-destructively. Unless a cored hull is made of Kevlar, carbon fiber, Aramid, etc. (way out of my budget), it's harder to have lightweight and cored to also be highly puncture resistant.

https://wavetrain.net/2011/05/25/fiberglass-boatbuilding-cored-laminates/

A solid hull may also have a bit of an edge at the failure limit. Solid glass can have a little bit of elasticity (or plasticity), deformability to absorb energy without failing catastrophically. A cored hull, being inherently very stiff, will generally continue to be stiff until it fails (like an eggshell).

A holed hull is a nightmare worst-case situation. Especially in deep water or offshore (shipping container anyone?), there is no upside or good outcome to a puncture.

On go-fast forums this discussion might be seen as neurotic over-kill and silly. A cored hull is faster/more fuel efficient both because it's lighter, and also because stiffness means energy otherwise lost to hull flexing is transferred into forward motion. But when it comes to potentially drowning or losing the boat, I personally would prefer to give up a couple of knots of speed or pay an extra few gallons per hour in fuel consumption to gain any possible edge survive a worst-case scenario.

Fast. Cheap. Puncture resistant. Pick two (within reason; sometimes you only get one, or none).

 

[Lou_tribal]

Smaller, bigger this is just a personal perception based on your need. How much space do you need?
Bigger means more expensive being for dock, maintenance or anything else.
When we got our boat it was a first to get bigger later. Finally we realized that for our usage it is enough for us two.
Do you need a lot of room inside or do you spend most of your time out on the deck enjoying the sun? Are you living aboard? Are you alone or a family of 4? Many personal criteria...

L

 

[BruceK]

I considered a well known Euro boat with a cored hull. They hadn`t successfully sealed the portlights in the front cabin, they were leaking. If they couldn`t get that right, what were the chances with underwater thru hulls in a cored hull. Too risky. Get a solid hull. Try to get one with vinylester used on the outer layers.
Good luck with your search. Took us near 3 years to "find the one" for our current boat. A 38ft boat is a nice size for a couple, it will take a guest as well, even an "ankle biter" (that could be kids, or a dog) and comfortable without being "too big". Our Integrity 386 is an ideal size for us, except for somewhere better than the swimstep to store the dinghy, an issue always worth considering. Every boat has its compromises, just get as close as you can to what you want,and be patient.

 

[Art]

Find a good Tollycraft... and have at it!

I believe you'll be glad you did! Great built boats!!

 

[FF]

"Codger2, I've heard people say, the bigger the boat, the less often you use it (within reason). I'm trying to minimize maintenance and other headaches at this point in my life. "

The boat assembly folks realize your desire for a very low maint boat is not held by most buyers.

"Paint sells the boat" so interior volume , and an interior of varnished dead trees will get more customers at the boat show .

Of course folks will never agree on how the lazy mans boat would be outfitted as one fellows delight evokes screams of horror from the next guy.

Might make an interesting future topic?

 

[Nick14]

I considered a well known Euro boat with a cored hull. They hadn`t successfully sealed the portlights in the front cabin, they were leaking. If they couldn`t get that right, what were the chances with underwater thru hulls in a cored hull. Too risky. Get a solid hull. Try to get one with vinylester used on the outer layers.
Good luck with your search. Took us near 3 years to "find the one" for our current boat. A 38ft boat is a nice size for a couple, it will take a guest as well, even an "ankle biter" (that could be kids, or a dog) and comfortable without being "too big". Our Integrity 386 is an ideal size for us, except for somewhere better than the swimstep to store the dinghy, an issue always worth considering. Every boat has its compromises, just get as close as you can to what you want,and be patient.

Thanks Bruce! I've always admired the Integrity 38. Great layout, perfect size. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be available in the U.S. (there's a U.S. dealer, but they've been unresponsive).

I'm a believer in the adage 'Buy the smallest boat that suites your needs.' The only 'but' to that is coastal New England waters can get nasty. Squalls offshore Maine, the Block Island washing machine, even Narragansett Bay itself, can all get ugly, fast.

No sane person goes out in rough seas. But sometimes, you get caught out in conditions you'd rather not be in. A lot depends on the design and hull form, but smaller boats in general get beaten up more around here. Seaworthiness and construction quality have always been my highest priorities.

 

[Nick14]

"Codger2, I've heard people say, the bigger the boat, the less often you use it (within reason). I'm trying to minimize maintenance and other headaches at this point in my life. "

The boat assembly folks realize your desire for a very low maint boat is not held by most buyers.

"Paint sells the boat" so interior volume , and an interior of varnished dead trees will get more customers at the boat show .

Of course folks will never agree on how the lazy mans boat would be outfitted as one fellows delight evokes screams of horror from the next guy.

Might make an interesting future topic?

Completely agree. Impressions at a boat show (back when we could safely have boat shows...) account for so many sales. As you said, therefore maximizing interior cabin space, even if at the expense of deck space for easy line handling.

I wouldn't call it a 'lazy man's boat'. Just different priorities. I'd rather spend my time doing preventive maintenance on the engine and other machinery than varnishing exterior wood. Been there, done that, don't want to do it again.

It's a GREAT idea for a future topic - start a thread!

 

[Art]

Thanks Bruce! I've always admired the Integrity 38. Great layout, perfect size. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be available in the U.S. (there's a U.S. dealer, but they've been unresponsive).

I'm a believer in the adage 'Buy the smallest boat that suites your needs.' The only 'but' to that is coastal New England waters can get nasty. Squalls offshore Maine, the Block Island washing machine, even Narragansett Bay itself, can all get ugly, fast.

No sane person goes out in rough seas. But sometimes, you get caught out in conditions you'd rather not be in. A lot depends on the design and hull form, but smaller boats in general get beaten up more around here. Seaworthiness and construction quality have always been my highest priorities.

Block Island washing machine Boy, Say Howdy! Aboard a stout constructed 38' raised deck sport fisher/sedan - Block Island inlet's confused seas and sudden bad weather conditions damn near killed three in my family in 1969. I was not aboard. The story was beyond scary... to say the least.

 

[OldDan1943]

I guess I am old fashion. A cored hull is not for me.

Re my AT34. For just me, great space. Then Yen moved on board. Not enough hanging closet space. LOL I told her she could have 1/2 of the hanging closet..... yea, where is the 1/2 point? I measured and put a hose clamp at the 1/2 point. SMILE 4 drawers in the stateroom, I gave up 3. Daymn, I'm a nice guy and I remind her frequently how nice I am to her.

 

[Mako]

Find a good Tollycraft... and have at it!

I believe you'll be glad you did! Great built boats!!

My wife and I were very impressed by an older 54ft cockpit TC. The biggest turn off was the two powerful Cat engines. I would have had to repower with a couple of small M1's for my purpose, which wasn't practical.

Funny thing, my wife's favorite feature was that the owner installed a single, small split-aircon (air cooled) which kept the interior sweet and mold-free in our horrible Florida environment. This is a much better system that the marine, watercooled, aircon headaches.

Overall a very impressive build and something for the OP to consider.

 

[Nick14]

Find a good Tollycraft... and have at it!

I believe you'll be glad you did! Great built boats!!

I've always loved Tollycrafts. Beautifully designed, well-built boats! My mouth used to water seeing them when we used to live in the PNW.

They're rare as hen's teeth here in the northeast. Rarely seen, hard to find, and very limited selection on the used boat market (like, occasionally, one at a time).

 

[TJM]

I would never buy new again, too many cost cutting techniques being deployed now. Everything is measured for savings and minimal stuff for value.
Keep looking, there are lots of sites to drool over. We are in lower CT and found our boat in Michigan. It was an awesome trip. It took us one full year of looking and driving to Boston, Annapolis, New Jersey almost every other weekend we were looking and you are correct, lots of dreamers out there that think there boat is in Bristol condition. Dont be afraid of sticker shock either. We offered the PO 50% of what he was asking and haggled only a little from there. Find the boat that you love to go to at the dock that performs as as well out in the bay. We travel the same waters as you at 8 kts. Getting out of bad weather quickly is not an option, so we plan in advance. Forecasters are getting better and I love our 3 Gallons per hour fuel burn.

 

[FF]

"I guess I am old fashion. A cored hull is not for me."

A cheap balsa core or low cost foam can be a long term danger.

The AIREX cored boats do not seem to have any problems , except paying for the hull.


AIREX® PXc is a closed-cell, fiber-reinforced urethane foam with special formulation that offers significant advantages in comparison to conventional sandwich core materials. A special manufacturing process is used to distribute continuous fiberglass filaments evenly in the PXc foam.

 

[Hippocampus]

There’s so many excellent foams now of which airex is only one. We asked for divinylcell rather than the baltex used in the deck/house of prior sisterships but thought about corecell and others. For that application wanted stiffness.
Now there’s multiple choices (not a full list)
PVC
Divinycell
Klugecell
Airlite

SAN+PVC (stryrene acrylonitrate)
Corecell
Airex R63 etc.

PUR (polyurethane) + PIR ( polycyanurate )

But what’s striking is what’s going on in baked prepreg construction where honey combs and carbon/plastic honeycomb cores maybe used. This method of construction has greater impact resistance than solid grp even if done in a manner to maximize glass to resin ratios (infusion / vacuum).

The statement that cored construction is less impact resistant is no longer true. Unfortunately, although repair can be done to achieve original strength it requires equipment and a skill set that may not be closely available depending upon where you cruise. Unfortunately it’s like race cars. Getting rid of the first few pounds is cheap. Getting rid of the last few ounces is expensive. Making it twice as strong as a daily driver is cheap. Making it three times as strong is expensive.
Will note the new Norhavn designs (N41 +N51) are cored from a foot up to the best of my knowledge. Even in FD decreasing weight above the waterline has multiple benefits beyond just improving AVS.

 

[Tom-Smith]

I have seen plenty new boats with plenty of problems. My Albula is a 60 foot boat, launched in 1997 in the Outer Banks and is a dream come true. I would go with older and bigger rather than smaller and newer.

 

[category4jay]

Hi Nick14,

There's only one entity on earth that money (or perseverance, or analysis, or diligence, or any other cognitive ability) won't buy. TIME. And your attempt to crowdsource a solution to that reality is, with all due respect, a fool's errand.

Your time on earth, your money, your choice. My answer to your original question would be moot and irrelevant.

Regards,

Pete

Lighten up there eh Capt Pete. Sheesh

 

[We Love Sharks59]

Not All, But a lot of the newer boats are "throw aways" just not built to last. They don't build them with one inch thick hulls, bullet proof engines and quality craftsmanship.

I would go with an older boat every time.

pete

I have seen this sentiment expressed before in a few boat related forums. If you were to opine, what decade do you use as to a cutoff year for old and beginning of "newer"? 1980s? 1990's?

Just a curious new person--I appreciate your insights, TIA

 

[TrawlerBear]

Hi Nick, Fortunately I got in just before the big "pandemic rush' on boats of all sizes. It's been almost a year and I'd agree with all the wise commenters who point out that people don't really have a good grasp as to the time and ongoing financial commitment of boat ownership, maintenance and improvement. I live close so am at the marina 2-4 days a week cleaning or doing odds and ends between cruises. Sadly I'd say at least 75% of the boats seem to never leave the slip - even when sold to a new owner! So... I'd agree that it's only logical that - assuming COVID remains under control - there will be a surplus of boats available in even a year. These will be all those people who don't find caring for their boat to be a somehow lovely and gratifying experience, who are not in thrall of the mystical beauties of the sea as most of us do, or who find they cannot afford it. That contingent, and even maybe the "cocktails only" crowd, lacking the underlying motivations that are hard to describe in words, will dump perfectly good boats into an overheated market to get out from under and provide a great opportunity for you and others looking to upgrade. Even if ALL boats are selling for 20% less, 20% of an amount on a newer boat you may buy is obviously more than 20% of an older (selling) boat. So I'd wait at least until next year if you want to get more for your money. Or, if you're buying new, I don't think it makes as much of a difference so now might be as a good time as any if you don't mind a longer wait for commissioning. Either way, good luck to you.

 

[Phase3]

Hi Nick14
We have a 37 Mariner Seville (Helmsman now). They are a well built boat with large covered side decks AND reasonably priced. Good choice if you decide new.
Brent

 

[Bryant]

old big or new small

I'd like to throw out a general question to the wise and experienced out there: For the same price, would you prefer a larger, older boat perhaps from a 'premium' maker, or a smaller, new boat?

I know the answer is, "it depends". It depends on the particular boat, it's condition, how it's been taken care of, type of engine(s), hours, etc. (especially condition). I would still be interested in and appreciate all thoughts and views.

I've been searching for a boat for a while (my 14th in 50 years), and am getting increasingly frustrated with the low inventory, high prices, and poor condition of so many boats in this 'sellers market'. I've wasted a LOT of time driving sometimes long distances to see boats advertised and claimed to be in 'perfect', 'like new', 'bristol', 'needs nothing' condition - only to discover within seconds of arriving that it's a project boat with six figures worth of needs. Everything looks great in internet photos. In person, not so much.

With the prices of used boats high these days, it's dawned on me that for a not too dissimilar price, a new boat could be bought, albeit somewhat smaller. There's a wait for getting a new boat, but, I could spend another year searching and wind up with nothing but more wasted time.

With all the reasonable caveats about condition and other specific details, I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts: for the same price, would you choose -

(1) a used boat, say 10-15 years old, 1000-2000 hours on the engine, in (apparently) very good condition (IF I could find one like that) in the 44-46 ft range, perhaps from a U.S. or European builder, or

(2) a brand new boat, built to spec including some customization of interior layout and engine, in the 38-ish foot range, from a well-regarded Chinese builder

Either size (or in between) would serve our needs.

Thank you!

If you've been boating for 50 years you are probably in your sixties, as I am. One thing to consider is that at some point you are probably going to have to downsize in order to keep boating. If you buy a new, smaller boat now, you get the benefit of owning new and you won't have to downsize later. In the long run, in your situation, buying smaller new now might save you money in the long run. While I love our boat, I wish I'd have considered this alternative when we bought. Good luck.

 

[PNK]

Larger/older vs smaller/newer

I am sure you have looked at a lot of boats, but personally I have found older boats to often be better built, particularly boats like Kadey-Krogen, DeFever and Hatteras LRC's. I would love a new boat, but when I look at them at shows I find that most are so loaded with what I call "glitz" - super-shiny wood work, colored lights all over, etc. - that I get turned off, and imagine the builders have included all this stuff so we don't look as carefully at the build quality.
This is obviously a very personal decision, but if you are going to spend a lot of time on this boat, the difference in space, dry and refrigerated storage, engine room and tankage going from a 36-38 ft boat to 46-48ft is pretty significant!
Peter

 

[Nick14]

@Phase3, thanks! I'd love to connect with you on PM and hear about your experiences with your boat.

@TrawlerBear, I think you're spot-on regarding market conditions and what will likely happen over the next year or two. I'm also trying to come to grips with my own impatience. I've seen about 30 boats over the past 2 years, and all but two have been (IMHO) overpriced junk projects.

@Bryant, have you been talking with my wife? She's been saying the same things. How much did she pay you to post that?

Beyond listening to She Who Is Always Right, being in my 60's, I am feeling the distressing but inevitable effects of aging. And it's accelerating. Almost every day I encounter something (like, trying to lift something I heavier than I should) that reminds me I'm now 60-something and no longer 20- or 30- (or even 50-something). Unfortunately, it also applies to boats. As much as I'd love to be able to do everything I could 20 years ago, biology says I can't.

What you said has crossed my mind often. While I could probably (hopefully?) handle a 45-ish foot boat today (lots of single handing), the hard truth is that even if I can, I probably won't be able to in a few years.

Facing one's own limitations and mortality is never fun, and we all tend to avoid it as long as possible. But sometimes, reality has a habit of smacking you in the face with a cinder block (like this week when I tried to do some yard work that would have been no problem 20 or even 10 years ago, but this time landed me in the hospital ER).

My mind, heart, and soul still want a 45+ foot boat, with delusional dreams of long-distance blue-water cruising. But my body is telling me to wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[markpierce]

Strength of hull? Steel adds a new equation. .... My previous boat was fiberglass. Am remembering the "spider" cracks resulting from minor impacts.