A lake tragedy

[ssobol]

...

When I attended college (NC State, a public university), swimming competence was required for graduation. Such is no longer the case.

Tragedies such as this one should bring a hue and cry from public health advocates, in favor of swim lessons in public schools. Swimming can be a life-changing and life-saving skill.

Public schools are already under significant financial stress. Very few have swimming pools. For those that don't, the costs and logistics of sending the kids somewhere else for swimming lessons makes it pretty much a non starter. These days, if it's not on the test then kids don't learn it.

Swimming lessons is more appropriate to summer camp, but not all kids can afford to go to camp, and not all camps involve swimming (e.g. skate camp).

Also, in the water conditions that caused this accident, even strong swimmers would have difficulty making it to shore or perhaps even keeping their head above water. While there may have been more survivors if everyone could swim, being able to swim won't help if you can't get out of the vehicle. Also, any small children, infants, elderly, or infirm riders would not have lasted very long in the water in those conditions.

 

[BandB]

My mother-in-law never learned to swim and is terrified of the water. She insisted that her kids learn to swim, and they all swam competitively and/or served as lifeguards.

When I attended college (NC State, a public university), swimming competence was required for graduation. Such is no longer the case.

Tragedies such as this one should bring a hue and cry from public health advocates, in favor of swim lessons in public schools. Swimming can be a life-changing and life-saving skill.

It will be interesting to see how many couldn't swim.

My high school had swim classes, required or you could test out. I tested out.

When I was in college, Drownproofing was a required course, rather than swimming. Not as extreme as the military version but still a challenge. I was lucky in that I was and am a "floater", not a "sinker." Most of the girls were floaters and I was very skinny at the time. I think I weighed around 95 pounds as a 16 year old college freshman. Not quite the floater now but still not a sinker. I also tested out of this.

I've found many who swam but not well enough to survive something like this. My neighbor and I would swim out from the dock and might spend an hour or more in the cove. We had others swim to us thinking we were standing on something when we were actually in 70 ft of water. They'd panic when they found out and we had several that we swam back to shore with to make sure they made it. I am afraid many of the lesser swimmers couldn't have stayed afloat in those conditions for more than a couple of minutes. Again, we might hear later, but it seemed to me that had there been some with life jackets on they might have been able to help others, but that wasn't the case.

 

[psneeld]

Read rescue swimmer and survivor reports of swimming in 60 knots storm winds.

I have done it multiple times in simulated conditions involving surf under a hovering helicopter.

Try it once before you ever have to attempt it for real.

It's then you realize survival situations require thinking outside almost everything learned in normal life.

 

[Woodland Hills]

Fake outrage, mob mentality, false accusations, destroyed lives, etc. All inflicted from the anonymous comfort of a keyboard miles away. Stop already, society isn't helped by behaving that way. Don't dress it up pretending to "focus attention".

So we should direct our anger towards those who point out the violations and violators as opposed to those who actually kill children by their failure to act in a responsible manner. It’s an interesting moral philosophy: decorum is more valued than justice.

 

[BandB]

It’s an interesting moral philosophy: decorum is more valued than justice.

There is a third option, decorum and justice. Rhetoric without hyperbole. While the current environment does seem to reward those who yell loudest, that's a shame too, because often those who speak softly have the strongest arguments and information.

I try to imagine being there as the person to interview all involved. I would definitely be looking for all negligence and would be hard hitting with my questions and not accepting of excuses and untruths. On the other hand, I would also try to show my awareness and sympathy of what they've all been through, even those responsible.

You mentioned criminal charges which I stated in response to your question, I don't feel will be made. However, let's assume for a moment that negligent homicide was charged, which generally falls under some form of involuntary manslaughter. Could I not file that while also feeling tremendous sympathy for the one I'm charging? I would say the vast majority of negligent homicide cases are that way. Typically not bad people, not the type you generally think of as criminals, just people who through some horrible judgement caused others to die. Recently, I've seen several cases filed where a parent accidentally left a child in a car, forgot they were with them. It's a horrible conundrum because you can't ignore the crime but you know the parent is already going through hell. I would think everyone involved in this situation is being tormented today by the events.

Until evidence surfaces to tell me otherwise, I'm going to assume that many good people made some very bad decisions that led to this tragedy. It doesn't excuse any of those decisions, but it also is possible to sympathize with those who made them. Now, if evidence shows blatant and intentional disregard and forcing those who objected or going out against the objections of others, then that changes things a bit.

Now, I'm going to take your side a bit in saying I'm pleased to see some anger and outrage. I think when 17 innocent people die, it is appropriate. While I think you perhaps went a bit too far, I'd rather see that than the person who just says "s... happens". When interviewing persons for jobs, I use to ask them to tell me something that made them angry. I had one person say "I don't get angry. I don't allow anything to make me angry." I didn't hire him because I can't imagine being so desensitized that nothing angers us and there were things that he might observe in the course of his job, that if he did, I'd want him angry. Now I'd want him to express his anger properly, but I would want anger.

As to justice, an odd concept. There is nothing that will make justice out of this situation. You can't reverse what happened. I do hope that steps are taken to reduce the probability of a recurrence and that, at the very least, involves some penalties, financial or otherwise, on those responsible. I would think the strongest penalty, the feeling of guilt and remorse, is already impacting them.

 

[foggysail]

Greetings,
Mr. 99. "... yards seem like miles when you're in rough seas." Indeed and in reference to my previous post I have no idea if I would have enough "smarts" to realize that a beaching was my only out.

My guess is that you would have had the ''smarts.''

I understand that every situation is different and at the same time I have trouble accepting that the seas became instantaneously rough. Easy to be an Monday morning quarterback especially with any tragic occurrence. So I "think" I would have sought the nearest shallow water or beach but today is Tuesday.

 

[diver dave]

My guess is that you would have had the ''smarts.''

I understand that every situation is different and at the same time I have trouble accepting that the seas became instantaneously rough. Easy to be an Monday morning quarterback especially with any tragic occurrence. So I "think" I would have sought the nearest shallow water or beach but today is Tuesday.

Important to note that shallow water is a great way to deal with a sinking vessel, but a poor way to react to high seas. At least, most vessels. A duck has springs and shock suspension, though. A very unique specialty for a captain.
When things get rough and dicey on my boats, I'm not thinking hit the beach.

 

[psneeld]

Beaching for sinking is one thing and beaching due to rough water is another.....

Crashing surf is one thing and can be extremely dangerous. Breaking waves in all but the largest of inland waters is another....

Hard for me to say if there were options as I have no time on that lake or a duck boat.

I do have the training that would have forced me to look at every shallows I pass every day where my duck could roll out in an emergency. Maybe for this captain, there were zero.

 

[foggysail]

Beaching for sinking is one thing and beaching due to rough water is another.....

Crashing surf is one thing and can be extremely dangerous. Breaking waves in all but the largest of inland waters is another....

Hard for me to say if there were options as I have no time on that lake or a duck boat.

I do have the training that would have forced me to look at every shallows I pass every day where my duck could roll out in an emergency. Maybe for this captain, there were zero.

Breaking waves, sure ... maybe even 20 footers but this occurred on a fresh body of water where the fetch is not hundreds of miles. Breaking waves are a lesser challenge to life than sinking into 80’ deep water.

Important to note that shallow water is a great way to deal with a sinking vessel, but a poor way to react to high seas. At least, most vessels. A duck has springs and shock suspension, though. A very unique specialty for a captain.
When things get rough and dicey on my boats, I'm not thinking hit the beach.

Dave- I have read many of your posts over the years. I don’t know what you would have done but what I think you would not have done is to venture out with storms predicted in a tiny vessel with close to zero freeboard and most likely dark sky’s.

 

[ABfish]

If schools can teach kids to drive cars, they can teach kids to swim. Or partner with the local YMCA to do so. Or let the kids that pass a basic fitness test, such as a one-mile run and a swim test, opt out of PE. That would save enough money to teach the kids that aren't physically fit.

My high school spends hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on high school athletics.
It's a matter of priorities.

 

[ABfish]

It will be interesting to see how many couldn't swim.

My high school had swim classes, required or you could test out. I tested out.

When I was in college, Drownproofing was a required course, rather than swimming. Not as extreme as the military version but still a challenge. I was lucky in that I was and am a "floater", not a "sinker." Most of the girls were floaters and I was very skinny at the time. I think I weighed around 95 pounds as a 16 year old college freshman. Not quite the floater now but still not a sinker. I also tested out of this.

I've found many who swam but not well enough to survive something like this. My neighbor and I would swim out from the dock and might spend an hour or more in the cove. We had others swim to us thinking we were standing on something when we were actually in 70 ft of water. They'd panic when they found out and we had several that we swam back to shore with to make sure they made it. I am afraid many of the lesser swimmers couldn't have stayed afloat in those conditions for more than a couple of minutes. Again, we might hear later, but it seemed to me that had there been some with life jackets on they might have been able to help others, but that wasn't the case.

I was definitely a sinker. I was in good shape at 18 years old, but I darn near drowned during the part of the test that required treading water for an extended period. Too much weight lifting, not enough body fat.

I don't have that problem now.

 

[healhustler]

I do have the training that would have forced me to look at every shallows I pass every day where my duck could roll out in an emergency. Maybe for this captain, there were zero.

I was thinking that as well. I don’t know this lake and he, reportedly, had lengthy experience with it. Heading back to the ramp might have looked to the Captain as the only alternative to grounding on rocks, uneven bottom contours and a sure capsize. It’s hard to believe there couldn’t have been some better decisions made before the event, but it’s even more difficult to second guess the reasoning and reactions “in” the event itself.

 

[diver dave]

.



Dave- I have read many of your posts over the years. I don’t know what you would have done but what I think you would not have done is to venture out with storms predicted in a tiny vessel with close to zero freeboard and most likely dark sky’s.

You are giving me the benefit of the doubt. But, I will come clean in front of this friendly crowd. There was a time, where I did take stupid risks re: thunderstorms in deep water and small (<30') boats. Got away with it comfortably until that Exuma event decades ago, which was a change event for me. It took me a couple and a half decades to realize that ALL meteorological based events come in different sizes. Lightning, wind, fog, etc. Frankly, I took flying far more seriously than boating, with respect to weather. And, you can't tell by the darkness of the sky to relate straight line wind velocity. See, I had no formal "captain" training except a couple of CG aux courses. I have some empathy for those not yet exposed to violent weather. And especially those of critical age or without the prop wash, body surfing, kayak in rapids, scuba diving experience. I do watch the WX before a mission, and I still think MAYBE this duck boat had a water intrusion or pump issue as a substantial contributor. We will have to wait on that one.

 

[BruceK]

Based on the weather,even without hindsight,requiring the punters to don lifejackets at the outset would have been appropriate. On Sydney Harbour, the dreaded high speed boats that take people for high speed spins and thrills joy rides make everyone wear one every ride.
But, getting the punters to wear lifejackets on the Duck would likely have negative PR implications and could be an unattractive course. Always assuming someone checked and turned their mind to assessing the weather implications.
I think people can be defamed on social media, but a robust discussion like this is needed to raise awareness and promote change to improve operational safety. Always assuming a fulsome Inquiry shows there were shortcomings capable of rectification. An Inquiry, and time, will tell.

 

[Benthic2]

I think people generally fall into one of two categories. Some people when stressed will apply more focus and determination to the existing plan....and some will ask " what else can I do?" It may be training that creates that, or it may just be how your brain is wired. I suspect people that need the open minded approach in their jobs or for survival ( pilots, Navy Seals, doctors, etc ) go through a rigorous training program. I have often wondered if that training instills that quality, or just weeds out those that don't have it.

I suspect the worse things got, the more tunnel vision the captain had about getting to the ramp. I also wonder if having another duck boat in front of him influenced his decision making. He may have though....that boat's making it...so I will too. It will be interesting to see what the on board camera's have to say.

 

[Seevee]

Practice and training do make lots of progress into the extreme. But, pilots do not practice ditching, captains do not practice sinkings, and divers don't practice wrestling panicked buddies at depth. Lots of times these do have successful outcomes, but there are no guarantees.

Diver Dave,

YES, pilots DO practice ditching, however simulated and it's all the way from touch down to being in the raft safely. And yes, it makes a big difference to be trained for the worst case. In stead of panicking, we have a "procedure" that has been trained.... and most often it works. Panic rarely works.

 

[BandB]

Diver Dave,

YES, pilots DO practice ditching, however simulated and it's all the way from touch down to being in the raft safely. And yes, it makes a big difference to be trained for the worst case. In stead of panicking, we have a "procedure" that has been trained.... and most often it works. Panic rarely works.

Wifey B: We've practiced some pretty wild things on boat simulators. Like the dude running the thing was doing every thing he could to mess us up. It was challenging but also a great experience. I wish we had our own simulator.

 

[ssobol]

Diver Dave,

YES, pilots DO practice ditching, however simulated and it's all the way from touch down to being in the raft safely. And yes, it makes a big difference to be trained for the worst case. In stead of panicking, we have a "procedure" that has been trained.... and most often it works. Panic rarely works.

The landing part of the ditching MAY be done in a flight simulator. But no commercial flight simulator used for this purpose simulates any sort of sea state, the friction/impact effects of the water, or any breakup effects on the airframe. The landing effect is the same as a gear up landing on the ground as far as the simulation is concerned. There is no training requirement for accurate simulation of ditching or water effects. The primary purpose of the pilot ditching training is to get the pilots to perform the appropriate checklist.

Ditching training for the cabin crew and the pilots is done in a swimming pool. Often the pool is indoors. Again, there is no simulation of sea state, other weather conditions, or even darkness. In most cases, the "aircraft" is fixed to the ground adjacent to the pool, and the rafts are already inflated in the proper position. There is no water intrusion in the cabin, no damage to the cabin interior, no effects due to airframe damage (e.g. listing), no danger that the "aircraft" will actually sink (fuselage sinking is not part of the simulation or the drill), and the water is at a nice temperature. There are no malfunctions of the slides or rafts (either failure to inflate or inflation into the cabin). There is also no simulation of environmental effects caused by the aircraft (e.g. fuel floating on the water or fire).

Training facilities with outdoor pools usually do not perform pool training when the weather is inclement.

Yes, this is all done in the name of cost effectiveness against the training requirements. However, in most cases an actual ditching is going to be a whole lot different than what is experienced in training.

The USAir Hudson accident was pretty much a textbook case. The plane stayed in one piece and everyone was saved. However, the aircraft did flood, there was damage to the cabin interior (which caused some injuries), some slides did not inflate automatically, The water temp was just above freezing, and the pilots did not complete the checklist (which probably contributed to fuselage flooding).

 

[diver dave]

Diver Dave,

YES, pilots DO practice ditching, however simulated and it's all the way from touch down to being in the raft safely. And yes, it makes a big difference to be trained for the worst case. In stead of panicking, we have a "procedure" that has been trained.... and most often it works. Panic rarely works.

I agree with the intent, it absolutely does help with checklist and memory proficiency. This reminds me, I did a sim ditching in either the Hudson or the east river in the Flight Safety S76 simulator at PBI. But, since my feet stayed very dry, I don't consider myself a ditching veteran. I guess we are splitting semantics here

 

[nodestination]

V

They are designed for surf and combat conditions.... why not a few breakers on a lake?

See the Wikipedia notes in the Duck Boat thread......

When those boat were made, the engines were "wide open" as government did not care about fuel consumption. Private owner do want to save a money on fuel. They cut down hp to a half.

 

[wkearney99]

Meanwhile there's other tour boat BUSES, this video has a clip of one in Dubai:
https://youtu.be/TfJCa5JAxRc?t=712

 

[Fletcher500]

I was in Mission Bay yesterday and there were duck boats everywhere. I don't know for sure, but they may have switched from the Main Bay, to MB due to the no wake environment. I was going to post a few photos from my Drone, but it took a swim.

 

[Seevee]

I agree with the intent, it absolutely does help with checklist and memory proficiency. This reminds me, I did a sim ditching in either the Hudson or the east river in the Flight Safety S76 simulator at PBI. But, since my feet stayed very dry, I don't consider myself a ditching veteran. I guess we are splitting semantics here

So true.

The point being that some training is better than none. And while impossible to build a sim that well exactly replicate a nasty ditching, there are things to do and not do to make it successful.

Perhaps if the capt of the duck boat were better trained on how to deal with nasty weather, there would have been a better outcome. Even some basic emergency procedures would have helped. From reading the reports on what happened, seems like he had no training at all.