Just got hit head-on by a sailboat

[Peter B]

Originally Posted by Northern Spy

I have nothing of value to add to the conversation. But I do read the title as "Just got hit on the head with a sailboat."

Everytime.

That's funny, 'cause so do I...

[BandB]

Originally Posted by MichaelB1969

Hey there, thanks for your help on this. I do not have his insurance info. I guess we'll see if I get a response tomorrow and go from there.

Best,
Mike

And what you just did was buy yourself some peace of mind. Now, you're not dependent on whether he responds or not, so don't worry throughout the day. That really becomes someone else's worry. Next accident, all parties exchange insurance information. Give him a chance to respond. If he fails to, then let your insurer take the lead. Hopefully, he'll be back to you today or tomorrow. On the other hand, he may not have insurance.

I'm assuming until shown otherwise that he is honorable and will do what he says. However, doing it this way prevents you being one of the thousands who end up shortchanged or in court because someone didn't.

[Pau Hana]

Originally Posted by MichaelB1969

Hey there, thanks for your help on this. I do not have his insurance info. I guess we'll see if I get a response tomorrow and go from there.

Best,
Mike

I'll bet he has insurance, as marinas in the Bay Area pretty much all require coverage. Perhaps his marina (if known) can assist you...

[FlyWright]

Good to hear you've involved the insurance co, Michael. It's not even my boat but I feel a bit relieved for you. That's the right way to handle this.

Hopefully, you feel a sense of relief now that they are involved. The load will be carried by those who are paid to protect your interest.

Now you can go boating and enjoy your ST44 while you wait for the phone to ring.

PS. I changed the thread title to "head-on".

[MichaelB1969]

Originally Posted by FlyWright

PS. I changed the thread title to "head-on".

Ha ha. :-)

[BruceK]

Originally Posted by Pau Hana

Mike, do you have his insurance info? If you do, you can file a claim against his policy.....

That`s good, but how does it work? You can do it in rare circumstances here in very specific circumstances pursuant to insurance legislation(company in liquidation etc), but in general insurance is a contract where the insured can call on the insurer for indemnity.
Is it the norm there a third party can claim on someone else`s insurance? Seems weird to me, but systems differ. Who pays any deductible,the insured or the 3rd party?

[Pau Hana]

Originally Posted by BruceK

That`s good, but how does it work? You can do it in rare circumstances here in very specific circumstances pursuant to insurance legislation(company in liquidation etc), but in general insurance is a contract where the insured can call on the insurer for indemnity.
Is it the norm there a third party can claim on someone else`s insurance? Seems weird to me, but systems differ. Who pays any deductible,the insured or the 3rd party?

A 3rd party can file the claim against an insured's policy, which would trigger the investigative process. The claim would be settled based on the results of said investigation.

In a liability claim, there is generally no deductible incurred. If the injured party has his insurer cover the damage, deductible would apply, and would be refund d to the injured party if there is a successful subrogation.

[Seevee]

Originally Posted by Pau Hana

A 3rd party can file the claim against an insured's policy, which would trigger the investigative process. The claim would be settled based on the results of said investigation.

In a liability claim, there is generally no deductible incurred. If the injured party has his insurer cover the damage, deductible would apply, and would be refund d to the injured party if there is a successful subrogation.

Pau,

Interesting...

But why would the OP file a claim against the sailor's insurance policy? Seems like conflict of interest. Their job is to take care of THEIR customer and pay as little as possible.

If I were the OP, I'd contact the sailor (which he did) and tell him to make me whole. I would not talk to his insurance company. (again, they are representing HIM, not me), I'd not talk to his marina, they have nothing to do with it, nor would I talk to anyone else.

I'd let MY insurance company know. I'd hire the company I wanted.... and it would most likely be a small independent guy with good credentials that I know, not a big marina that may or may not handle this properly. I would absolutely want control over the repair, not some insurance company. No surveyor is needed on a job this small.

If the sailor was not cooperative, I'd sue him, not anyone else. He is responsible and his insurance company show protect him.

I would hope this whole thing could be handled in a week or two.

[BruceK]

Third party access to someone else`s insurance policy surprised me too, but different countries different rules. Here the insured has to be bankrupt,or have disappeared, to claim against the insurer, and the insurers don`t like, probably because they can`t find the insured either, to get information they need to consider the claim.
Is it legislated or just how it works in practice. What if I wanted to handle the claim myself and not put it through insurance? Even then the 3rd party can still make it an insurance claim?

[Pau Hana]

Originally Posted by Seevee

Pau,

Interesting...

But why would the OP file a claim against the sailor's insurance policy? Seems like conflict of interest. Their job is to take care of THEIR customer and pay as little as possible.

If I were the OP, I'd contact the sailor (which he did) and tell him to make me whole. I would not talk to his insurance company. (again, they are representing HIM, not me), I'd not talk to his marina, they have nothing to do with it, nor would I talk to anyone else.

I'd let MY insurance company know. I'd hire the company I wanted.... and it would most likely be a small independent guy with good credentials that I know, not a big marina that may or may not handle this properly. I would absolutely want control over the repair, not some insurance company. No surveyor is needed on a job this small.

If the sailor was not cooperative, I'd sue him, not anyone else. He is responsible and his insurance company show protect him.

I would hope this whole thing could be handled in a week or two.

Because that is the essence of liability insurance. An insurance policy covers not only your property as the named insured, but others for the damage you may do to them.

Also, the base of insurance is NOT to pay as little as possible- that is simply a fallacy. Give me some factual examples of this being the industry standard. Insurance coverage is to make you or others whole, based on the policy language.

The sailor wronged the OP. As I stated earlier, if the OP has the insurance info of the offending party, then he can contact that company and open a claim. The insurance company will take the info of the wronged party, then contact their insured and get their side of the story. The insurance info of the offending party is never released to the OP.

You are free to hire any company you desire to oversee the damage repair, and you can have as much control as you desire over the process. This is a subjective decision, as many don't have the time, ,money, inclination, expertise, or desire to get involved to this level.

[Peter B]

It appears to me this whole thread has gone on way past it's best by date, purely because so many seem determined to paint insurance companies in a bad and suspicious light. This has never been my experience, ever, not with damage to the home, cars, or the boat...and there has been some to all at times. Not our fault in any of the cases either, so comparable to the OP's case.

I have always been pleasantly surprised how quickly and efficiently it has all been sorted out. They appear to have a somewhat undeserved reputation, which is why I'm bothering to post at all, because as someone with absolutely no vested interest in the discussion I felt a need to put this out there to counter some of the negativity and some, which is frankly, misinformation.

[Benthic2]

you may have the right to have the repair done by whomever you want, but if the insurance company deems the repair to be do-able for $1000, and you submit a bill for $2000, they aren't going to cover it. Not because they are evil, sinister or malicious...just because their management, just like the management of any company in any industry, is obligated to keep costs down. That's what the owners of the company expect, and as policy holders, what you should want...otherwise they have to raise rates to cover the excessive costs and fraud that would result.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Benthic2

you may have the right to have the repair done by whomever you want, but if the insurance company deems the repair to be do-able for $1000, and you submit a bill for $2000, they aren't going to cover it. Not because they are evil, sinister or malicious...just because their management, just like the management of any company in any industry, is obligated to keep costs down. That's what the owners of the company expect, and as policy holders, what you should want...otherwise they have to raise rates to cover the excessive costs and fraud that would result.

A price will be agreed in advance, but insurance companies generally will go to the better boatyards or encourage them and they will give them more leeway for additional issues found. In the auto world, the insurers have many shops that you can take it to and not even have to get an estimate as these are preferred vendors and they're for the most part the new dealers for the car, not a small independent low ball shop. Most of the time the work can be done for less than an insurer's estimate if you're willing to take your chances on who you have do it.

If you want to choose a shop not approved by the insurer then you just decided to assume all the risk for the work. If the insurer approves and pays directly, then they share responsibility with the yard.

When you're talking a $10 million person injury case or a $50 million warehouse fire, then insurers can be difficult and prolong things, but not on a $1000 or $2000 claim.

[FlyWright]

Originally Posted by Peter B

It appears to me this whole thread has gone on way past it's best by date, purely because so many seem determined to paint insurance companies in a bad and suspicious light. This has never been my experience, ever, not with damage to the home, cars, or the boat...and there has been some to all at times. Not our fault in any of the cases either, so comparable to the OP's case.

I have always been pleasantly surprised how quickly and efficiently it has all been sorted out. They appear to have a somewhat undeserved reputation, which is why I'm bothering to post at all, because as someone with absolutely no vested interest in the discussion I felt a need to put this out there to counter some of the negativity and some, which is frankly, misinformation.

I agree whole-heartedly. My experiences with insurance companies have always been positive. I'm sure there are lots of bad stories out there, but I bet most of us have experienced good results.

[Pau Hana]

The bad stories are certainly out there, but most I've heard are never 1st party- they are 3rd party, or unsubstantiated rumors that grow legs.

[Seevee]

Originally Posted by Benthic2

you may have the right to have the repair done by whomever you want, but if the insurance company deems the repair to be do-able for $1000, and you submit a bill for $2000, they aren't going to cover it. Not because they are evil, sinister or malicious...just because their management, just like the management of any company in any industry, is obligated to keep costs down. That's what the owners of the company expect, and as policy holders, what you should want...otherwise they have to raise rates to cover the excessive costs and fraud that would result.

It's because they want to get out with the cheapest out of pocket cost. The are not necessarily malicious, but they often will not settle to make you whole, they will settle to save the most money.

There has been numerous fraudulent claims with insurance companies to just wear someone down and pay cheap or not at all.... just google it. Some have gotten caught and had to pay the piper in court or with criminal prosecutions.

I've been through it enough to know that.

Overall, insurance is not a good deal. You pay the premium way before you need it, if you have a claim you will deal with the hassle of proving it, fighting them to repair or compensate you as you agreed, and then fighting about whose going to do the repair. Most of the time one is better off being self insured... over time.

Plus, your premium amount is way more than they pay in claims. You have to pay for their overhead, commissions, buildings, etc. If you live long enough, you'll never get your premium back in claims, unless you're very careless. I'll spend my money on training and maintenance, and I'm way ahead right now. And all of my comments are person experience... not third party.

Now, liability where there is bodily injury is another thing. The insurance may give you piece of mind to pay for the attorney that will defend you.

Just food for thought....

[Pau Hana]

Originally Posted by Seevee

It's because they want to get out with the cheapest out of pocket cost. The are not necessarily malicious, but they often will not settle to make you whole, they will settle to save the most money.

There has been numerous fraudulent claims with insurance companies to just wear someone down and pay cheap or not at all.... just google it. Some have gotten caught and had to pay the piper in court or with criminal prosecutions.

I've been through it enough to know that.

Overall, insurance is not a good deal. You pay the premium way before you need it, if you have a claim you will deal with the hassle of proving it, fighting them to repair or compensate you as you agreed, and then fighting about whose going to do the repair. Most of the time one is better off being self insured... over time.

Plus, your premium amount is way more than they pay in claims. You have to pay for their overhead, commissions, buildings, etc. If you live long enough, you'll never get your premium back in claims, unless you're very careless. I'll spend my money on training and maintenance, and I'm way ahead right now. And all of my comments are person experience... not third party.

Now, liability where there is bodily injury is another thing. The insurance may give you piece of mind to pay for the attorney that will defend you.

Just food for thought....

Seaview, would you please cite where you obtain your information, and your professional background/experience in insurance? I'm in the industry, and take issue with your statements, for they are not factual from my experience- and clearly, your doom and gloom rhetoric has not been the experience of other post respondents.

Hopefully you're not a troll, and have just had a bad personal experience.

[Seevee]

Originally Posted by Pau Hana

Seaview, would you please cite where you obtain your information, and your professional background/experience in insurance? I'm in the industry, and take issue with your statements, for they are not factual from my experience- and clearly, your doom and gloom rhetoric has not been the experience of other post respondents.

Hopefully you're not a troll, and have just had a bad personal experience.

Pau,

What specifically do you have an issue with?

Everything I said can be backed up by personal experience, court cases or fines involving misbehavior of insurance companies (at the bottom).

First, let's put the personal stuff aside. I am not accusing you of anything other than being a fine person and a gentleman and I am not a troll.

Yes, I've had good and bad experience with insurance companies. But the number soften don't add up, and insurance is just a matter of numbers and risk tolerance. You pay a premium and expect to be protect for what you've agreed upon in the policy documents. You don't expect the have to hire legal to have the company make good on it's promises, nor go without reasonable claims paid promptly. I find, too often, that there's a fight on my hands.

What's reasonable risk tolerance for some may not be for others. There's always a price, or terms or exclusions that no one would pay for in a policy. Let's say the premium for your $100K boat was $50K, you'd probably not buy. So each of us has to determine what premium is worth being protected from a possible loss, and how "risky" of a boater we are.

For example, I decided I'd buy insurance on my new trawler this year for two reasons. The first, is that I'm a high risk operator until I get more experience and my wife is in the same boat (pun intended). Even with training, which we are doing, we still have high risk. And we will be spending a lot more time on the boat (exposure), and the premiums are really low. It's the second one I've insured ....ever, and the other insured boat that I'm involved in has partners, which is higher risk.

Will I have to fight my company... hope not, and they do enjoy one of the best ratings.

Way back when I had businesses and a lot of property, most of it was insured and there seem to always be an issue. A few claims were paid fine, but a lot were just a hassle. I don't have a lot of activities now, but still some properties. Last week I get a letter from my agent telling me I have to get some equipment removed from the back yard of a tenant occupied home. WFT? They had to go into the yard, through a fence to see it, and it had nothing to do with risk or insurance. I call the agent and told her I wanted to speed with the person at the insurance company that authorized this. They wouldn't talk to me. My agent suggested to just take a picture of a different part of the yard and send it in showing the equipment gone. I wouldn't do that. I made a stink and insisted to talk with them. She called me back and said the company admitted wrong doing and sorry about the inconvenience. What? A year ago I was denied a claim for a sewer backing up causing water damage. The denied the claim and we fought back and forth for several months. They then insisted that I fix the damage, provide proof to them at my expense. I told them to FO fired them and got a different policy and filed another one of my many complaints with the insurance commissioner. That same company, Citizens of Florida still owes me unearned premium from a home I sold 10 years ago. State Farm is one of the worst. I dropped them 20 years ago, insuring a large block of properties. They couldn't do anything right, but the agent and I remain good friends. All State is a bad one, too. They denighed a claim saying the premium wasn't paid. I sent them a copy of the cancelled check with the policy number on it (and copied the insurance commissioner). Great bookkeeping! I could go on and on.

You can see why I don't like insurance companies. For the most part, they stink. Sure, they've graciously paid a few claims without fuss. And there's some great agents, I have several good friends that are agents, and you wouldn't believe some of the stories from them.

Sure, there is a reason to be insurance, and for some folks, they got to be covered for everything.

Now, liability insurance that protects one against their acts of operating the boat could be a good thing for most of us. The majority of us will never use it, but if we did something stupid and there was serious injury or death, the financial loss would be hard to recover from.

And there's a lot of things that insurance won't cover, so a reason to be careful.

=====
Bad insurance companies:
Dover, DE – The Delaware Department of Insurance now publishes fines imposed by Commissioner Karen Weldin Stewart against insurance companies who violate state insurance regulations.
Commissioner Stewart fined the following companies a total of $83,300 during the first quarter of 2016:
Name Fine Date
21st Century $27,500.00 1/21/2016
Teachers Insurance Co. $25,000.00 2/04/2016
Homesite Insurance Co. $15,000.00 3/17/2016
Jackson National Life Ins. Co. $3,800.00 3/22/2016
Progressive Direct $5,000.00 3/03/2016
Progressive Northern $7,000.00 3/04/2016
=====
Office of the Insurance Commissioner of Washington State revealed that it had fined American Pet Insurance Co. (APIC) $150,000 for violating numerous state regulations.
====
To identify the worst insurance companies for consumers, researchers at the American Association for Justice (AAJ) undertook a comprehensive investigation of thousands of court documents, SEC and FBI records, state insurance department investigations and complaints, news accounts from across the country, and the testimony and depositions of former insurance agents and adjusters. Our final list includes companies across a range of different insurance fields, including homeowners and auto insurers, health insurers, life insurers, and disability insurers. This report sites many areas where insurers unfairly cheater their customers. Included are Allstate, Unum, AIG, StateFarm, Conseco, WellPoint, Farmers, UnitedHealth, Torchmark, and Liberty Mutual. The details in this report reveal several times where the insured was cheated by attempts to not pay claims nor treat their clients according to good faith dealings.
====
State Farm Mutual Automobile Insurance Co. v. Campbell
Boicourt v. Amex Assurance Co.
Matson Terminals v. Home Insurance Co
David Clayton v. United Services Automobile Association
Vann v. The Travelers Insurance Company
====
OLYMPIA, Wash. – Insurance Commissioner Mike Kreidler issued fines in September totaling $13,000 against insurance companies, agents and brokers who violated state insurance regulations.

[BandB]

You can list a thousand cases of misbehavior by insurance companies and far more of misbehavior by the insured. However, most of us have had good experiences, not bad like you, and as a percentage of all insured the problems are still a very small percentage.

The fact you've repeatedly had problems, would suggest to me though that the one common factor was you, and perhaps your method of selecting insurers and reviewing the policies in advance is something you need to or you already have addressed.

I join Pau in disagreeing with statements like this one you made:

"For the most part, they stink."

No, they don't. Just look at the people posting here and their experiences are overwhelmingly positive. I've dealt with many insurers over the years and had no real problems. We did have a delay after a warehouse fire in determining and then agreeing to the amount of smoke damage. However, once we went through the inventory and determined and then submitted, it was a very reasonable time from that point to payment in full.

I accept that your experiences have been very bad and you continue to crusade against insurance companies. That's your right to your opinion. However, others of us will continue to express the opposite view. And, yes, if I was Pau, I'd be bothered by it because you're attacking his chosen profession and he built a business based on reputable dealings and now works for the insurer and I'm sure continues to do things honorably.

So, I grant your experiences as all real and bad. I just don't agree that is indicative of the experiences of the world at large.

Now, I hope David's experience is more like the ones I've had than those you've had and guess we'll find out when this is over. Hope Michael's works out too.

[Pau Hana]

Originally Posted by Seevee

Pau,

What specifically do you have an issue with?

Everything I said can be backed up by personal experience, court cases or fines involving misbehavior of insurance companies (at the bottom).

First, let's put the personal stuff aside. I am not accusing you of anything other than being a fine person and a gentleman and I am not a troll.

Yes, I've had good and bad experience with insurance companies. But the number soften don't add up, and insurance is just a matter of numbers and risk tolerance. You pay a premium and expect to be protect for what you've agreed upon in the policy documents. You don't expect the have to hire legal to have the company make good on it's promises, nor go without reasonable claims paid promptly. I find, too often, that there's a fight on my hands.

What's reasonable risk tolerance for some may not be for others. There's always a price, or terms or exclusions that no one would pay for in a policy. Let's say the premium for your $100K boat was $50K, you'd probably not buy. So each of us has to determine what premium is worth being protected from a possible loss, and how "risky" of a boater we are.

For example, I decided I'd buy insurance on my new trawler this year for two reasons. The first, is that I'm a high risk operator until I get more experience and my wife is in the same boat (pun intended). Even with training, which we are doing, we still have high risk. And we will be spending a lot more time on the boat (exposure), and the premiums are really low. It's the second one I've insured ....ever, and the other insured boat that I'm involved in has partners, which is higher risk.

Will I have to fight my company... hope not, and they do enjoy one of the best ratings.

Way back when I had businesses and a lot of property, most of it was insured and there seem to always be an issue. A few claims were paid fine, but a lot were just a hassle. I don't have a lot of activities now, but still some properties. Last week I get a letter from my agent telling me I have to get some equipment removed from the back yard of a tenant occupied home. WFT? They had to go into the yard, through a fence to see it, and it had nothing to do with risk or insurance. I call the agent and told her I wanted to speed with the person at the insurance company that authorized this. They wouldn't talk to me. My agent suggested to just take a picture of a different part of the yard and send it in showing the equipment gone. I wouldn't do that. I made a stink and insisted to talk with them. She called me back and said the company admitted wrong doing and sorry about the inconvenience. What? A year ago I was denied a claim for a sewer backing up causing water damage. The denied the claim and we fought back and forth for several months. They then insisted that I fix the damage, provide proof to them at my expense. I told them to FO fired them and got a different policy and filed another one of my many complaints with the insurance commissioner. That same company, Citizens of Florida still owes me unearned premium from a home I sold 10 years ago. State Farm is one of the worst. I dropped them 20 years ago, insuring a large block of properties. They couldn't do anything right, but the agent and I remain good friends. All State is a bad one, too. They denighed a claim saying the premium wasn't paid. I sent them a copy of the cancelled check with the policy number on it (and copied the insurance commissioner). Great bookkeeping! I could go on and on.

You can see why I don't like insurance companies. For the most part, they stink. Sure, they've graciously paid a few claims without fuss. And there's some great agents, I have several good friends that are agents, and you wouldn't believe some of the stories from them.

Sure, there is a reason to be insurance, and for some folks, they got to be covered for everything.

Now, liability insurance that protects one against their acts of operating the boat could be a good thing for most of us. The majority of us will never use it, but if we did something stupid and there was serious injury or death, the financial loss would be hard to recover from.

And there's a lot of things that insurance won't cover, so a reason to be careful.

=====
Bad insurance companies:
Dover, DE – The Delaware Department of Insurance now publishes fines imposed by Commissioner Karen Weldin Stewart against insurance companies who violate state insurance regulations.
Commissioner Stewart fined the following companies a total of $83,300 during the first quarter of 2016:
Name Fine Date
21st Century $27,500.00 1/21/2016
Teachers Insurance Co. $25,000.00 2/04/2016
Homesite Insurance Co. $15,000.00 3/17/2016
Jackson National Life Ins. Co. $3,800.00 3/22/2016
Progressive Direct $5,000.00 3/03/2016
Progressive Northern $7,000.00 3/04/2016
=====
Office of the Insurance Commissioner of Washington State revealed that it had fined American Pet Insurance Co. (APIC) $150,000 for violating numerous state regulations.
====
To identify the worst insurance companies for consumers, researchers at the American Association for Justice (AAJ) undertook a comprehensive investigation of thousands of court documents, SEC and FBI records, state insurance department investigations and complaints, news accounts from across the country, and the testimony and depositions of former insurance agents and adjusters. Our final list includes companies across a range of different insurance fields, including homeowners and auto insurers, health insurers, life insurers, and disability insurers. This report sites many areas where insurers unfairly cheater their customers. Included are Allstate, Unum, AIG, StateFarm, Conseco, WellPoint, Farmers, UnitedHealth, Torchmark, and Liberty Mutual. The details in this report reveal several times where the insured was cheated by attempts to not pay claims nor treat their clients according to good faith dealings.
====
State Farm Mutual Automobile Insurance Co. v. Campbell
Boicourt v. Amex Assurance Co.
Matson Terminals v. Home Insurance Co
David Clayton v. United Services Automobile Association
Vann v. The Travelers Insurance Company
====
OLYMPIA, Wash. – Insurance Commissioner Mike Kreidler issued fines in September totaling $13,000 against insurance companies, agents and brokers who violated state insurance regulations.

I take issue with a subjective opinion being offered as objective fact. Clearly your area of expertise lies outside of insurance (except as a policyholder) yet you make concrete statements and conjecture about how bad the industry is- all of which can refuted fairly easily. I liken it to condemning all cars as unsafe because 1 crashed- the statistics and real world data would simply not support your conclusion.

Premiums are generally very low for the coverages offered, and tens of thousands of claims are paid daily without fanfare. The one errant claim does not sway this simple fact.

I cannot speak to your personal experiences, but it seems that there is much of the story that needs to be heard to paint a complete picture.