Go Back   Trawler Forum > Trawler Forum > General Discussion
Click Here to Login


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-25-2021, 10:03 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
Moby Nick's Avatar
 
City: Rockford, IL
Vessel Name: Du NORD
Vessel Model: Albin-25
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 328
Just curious how folks here would rank Diesel Engine Manufacturers

Between longtime employments I once worked briefly at a service engineering company where my Supervisor possessed considerable engine development experience. When I knew him one of his projects involved testing a small Mitsubishi engine for Onan. He was no "lightweight"; his resume included Mechanical Engineering in the same building as Dr Fermi at Alamogordo as well as for Caterpillar. He once told me "Nobody builds engines like Caterpillar". I've never read that sort of evaluation here in regard to boats.
__________________
Advertisement

Moby Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2021, 10:09 AM   #2
Guru
 
South of Heaven's Avatar
 
City: Sharon, Ma
Vessel Name: Slow Lane
Vessel Model: 2005 Silverton 35 Motoryacht
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,130
This thread will get us through winter.
__________________

__________________
Jason

2005 Silverton 35 Motoryacht
South of Heaven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2021, 10:30 AM   #3
Guru
 
City: gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 3,433
I think comments like that are silly.

Every maker changes models and components over time and each will have its own reliability and failure rate. Cat built some real turkeys in the 90s but replaced them under warranty. Cummins mercruiser was a fiasco and an insult to the Cummins name.

However basic engine failure is very rarely reported here regardless of maker and year.

It is the marine conversion stuff that causes the most trouble. That stuff is often not built by the engine maker but is bolted on and, of course, is changed over time.
bayview is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2021, 10:36 AM   #4
Technical Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,072
You really can't rank them by manufacturer. Each has made some gems, each has made some turds. Also varies with years. Cat made the awesome 3406, but also made the 3116 at 350, which did not hold up very well. Now Cat is making some of their marine engines, but outsourcing some models from Euro suppliers and painting them yellow. Not really Cat engines.

I generally like Cummins, but they made some turds too. One thing I like about that company is that all they make is engines. So they have some focus!!

The Japanese really own the small engine market (under say 50-100hp), like Kubota, Shibarua, Mitsubishi, Isuzu, Yanmar, etc. Most of these little engines are gems.

Cummins sorta owns the 200-700hp market. Some products better than others.

Cat still makes great engines in the 800-2000hp range (C18, C32). I don't know their Euro engines very well, just not exposed to them much. I don't like when product ownership is split between companies.

Volvo makes some nice engines, as does Yanmar, but tend to be very expensive to buy parts and once engines get old, parts can be tough to get.

There is no one "best" engine mfr. You need to figure out what power you need, what the duty cycle will look like and start from there. There will be several mfr's that make a decent machine that meets the specs.
Ski in NC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2021, 10:54 AM   #5
Guru
 
City: Detroit
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 582
Gardner. I might just buy the engine and then go look for a boat.
moparharn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2021, 11:41 AM   #6
Guru
 
City: gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 3,433
Disappointing to hear a Cat is painting other maker engines. Their reputation is at stake.
bayview is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2021, 11:58 AM   #7
Guru
 
South of Heaven's Avatar
 
City: Sharon, Ma
Vessel Name: Slow Lane
Vessel Model: 2005 Silverton 35 Motoryacht
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,130
Lot's of Nordhavns come equipped with Lugger power plants. Not sure who makes Lugger but they seem to have a great reputation.
__________________
Jason

2005 Silverton 35 Motoryacht
South of Heaven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2021, 12:00 PM   #8
Guru
 
ancora's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,827
Been watching Vietnamese on Youtbe, rebuilding marine engines and installing new marine engines. Daewoo, Mistubishi, Hino, Cummins, Cats, Yanmar, and others...but never Volvos. Perhaps they know something?
ancora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2021, 12:06 PM   #9
Technical Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,072
Lugger does not make their engines, they buy them from other mfr's. Big ones mostly Komatsu, medium ones Deere, little ones Shibaura. They do a good job on marinizing them.
Ski in NC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2021, 12:16 PM   #10
Guru
 
koliver's Avatar
 
City: Saltspring Island
Vessel Name: Retreat
Vessel Model: C&L 44
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,827
Quote:
Originally Posted by moparharn View Post
Gardner. I might just buy the engine and then go look for a boat.
You won't be the first to do that.
I anchored near a gorgeous boat this past summer. When yakking with the owner I learned that he had bought a de-licensed fishboat with a Gardner, just for the engine, then built his gorgeous boat to fit. Not really fair that one guy should be that talented and have the time.
__________________
Keith
koliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2021, 02:03 PM   #11
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 19,807
I will only address current vintage engines as that's where my experience is and rather than a ranking, I'll address strengths as I see them.

MAN-I don't think you can beat them for the 800-1900 hp range. The combination of size to performance and dependability. A+

CAT-I think in the US they're a bit overrated. Many long time boaters just think they are the only engine to have. I think they have as many issues as anyone plus they're noisy. I'd choose MAN over them. Now, I would give them a C except their warranty service is excellent (Unless you're waiting on Pantropic) so B.

Cummins-I'd almost give them a top rating just based on how they treated Dhays. Dependable, solid engines. A.

Yanmar-In the smaller diesels, we've found them dependable and trouble free on the whole. B+

MTU-MTU has all the upper horsepower business from 2000 hp up plus a part of the smaller engines. Because many of their engines are pushed to the limits and in ranges others don't offer, I do think they get a bit more negative response than deserved. A 2800 hp pressed to it's limit is likely to have more issues than a 600 hp. Their warranty service is strong so I'll give them a B.

Deere/Lugger and all the variations. I personally prefer the Lugger versions slightly having used them extensively in Northern Lights generators. There is no more dependable engine, in my opinion. A+

Volvo-Rating just the engine here and trying not to cloud it by IPS. Solid. Really gaining share with European and Asian builders. Their history of parts availability and service in the US hasn't been what it is in Europe but is improving rapidly. However, until it makes a bit more progress, I must do the opposite of what I did on CAT and reduce them from a B to a C+.

Mercury-Why? Now that Searay no longer builds larger boats will they die? With so many excellent engines, theirs are not. D

In smaller engines, there are many others out there who build fine engines but their service networks and general usage just isn't enough for me to evaluate. VW, Kubota, Suzuki are just some that quickly come to mind.
Also, it must be said that one can experience trouble with the best engine and one can have a lifelong wonderful experience with the worst. On the whole, all the engines are good, just some better than others, especially in their prime ranges.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2021, 02:34 PM   #12
Scraping Paint
 
City: Jacksonville
Vessel Name: SONAS
Vessel Model: Grand Alaskan 53
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 7,509
Just a small piece of info.

Northern Lights no longer marinize Lugger propulsion engines. They decided that the latest round of emission standards would be a stretch for continuing in that line of business. I think that was about seven or eight years ago.

So the newer Nordhavns no longer have Luggers. I believe they are now produced with John Deeres.

They are obviously still in the genset business.
menzies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2021, 02:41 PM   #13
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 19,807
Quote:
Originally Posted by menzies View Post
Just a small piece of info.

Northern Lights no longer marinize Lugger propulsion engines. They decided that the latest round of emission standards would be a stretch for continuing in that line of business. I think that was about seven or eight years ago.

So the newer Nordhavns no longer have Luggers.

They are obviously still in the genset business.
And, per my understanding, there are still a few who buy and marinize from them as opposed to directly from Deere. I don't know why. Apparently there's an entire cottage industry on marinizing Deere and a good bit for Kubota.

Current emissions standards are scrambling a lot right now, even more at the high hp end of the market.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2021, 12:15 AM   #14
Guru
 
tiltrider1's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: AZZURRA
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 54
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 2,374
Deere now marinize’s their engines.

Deere’s and Gardner’s are legendary for reliability but with boats one size does not fit all. There is no manufacturer that I would say is point blank superior. Each has their models and there is a balance between cost and services.

There are manufacturers I don’t like but only one of them made BandB’s list and my personal reason might not be relevant to others.
tiltrider1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2021, 12:58 AM   #15
Senior Member
 
magna 6882's Avatar
 
City: Elliot Bay
Vessel Name: Intrepid
Vessel Model: North Pacific/ NP-45 Hull 10
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 273
All good points. While new to marine spent my life in trucking and machinery. Each manufacture has its gem and also its turd. Old days with mechanical engines reliability was good and simple to keep running. Now with such high pressure injection electronically controlled with muti-fireing one needs a laptop to even get started.My Favorites have been cat 3406, cummins big cam 400s ,international dt466, and the deer engines have all been good. We needed to move a deer dozer last week that has been sitting for 20 years. They dropped two battery's in it and it fired right up old fuel and all. Only problem was fuel running from rusted fuel lines so some duct tape and got it on a trailer. Right now were having a lot of trouble with cummins 15 liters dropping valves on number 6. 30k repair. They have just upgraded the head but its a good example of a manufacture having something wrong and then after some time they figure it out then come up with a fix. I have about a dozen ISX600s with one failure. My advise is to ask on the forum about a specific engine and what series.
magna 6882 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2021, 02:58 AM   #16
Senior Member
 
City: Cairns
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancora View Post
Been watching Vietnamese on Youtbe, rebuilding marine engines and installing new marine engines. Daewoo, Mistubishi, Hino, Cummins, Cats, Yanmar, and others...but never Volvos. Perhaps they know something?
This is very common through out Asia. Essentially buy a used engine and transmission from Japan, throw away the radiator and turbo, connect up some 1 1/2" pipe as keel cooling and call it marinised.

It helps that purchase and maintenance costs are very low, any back yard mechanic can work on them and there are thousands of similarly powered medium duty trucks plying the roads. The highway trucks cannot be killed so i assume the same can be said for marine installs.

Volvo just cannot compete on price, simplicity nor parts availability. They are seen in 500+hp mining uses and that's about it.
GoneDiving is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2021, 03:06 AM   #17
Senior Member
 
City: Cairns
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by magna 6882 View Post
All good points. While new to marine spent my life in trucking and machinery. Each manufacture has its gem and also its turd...
I'm a newbie to marine power so I'll assume the answer to which engine is best is the same as which dive equipment is best? It's always "The one I bought". No one spends thousands and then admits that there was a better option.

Plus best at what? Run forever at light load around the world? Get on plane quickly and go like sting? The one that my local tech knows so well? The one that is simple enough for me to do 90% of repairs? Different beasts.
GoneDiving is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2021, 03:08 AM   #18
Guru
 
Simi 60's Avatar
 
City: Queensland
Vessel Model: Milkraft 60 converted timber prawn trawler
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,271
Quote:
Originally Posted by moparharn View Post
Gardner. I might just buy the engine and then go look for a boat.
We went the other way
Our boat was clearly looking at a 6lxb when being converted (brochures and comparison numbers on file) but an NTA855m , same as previous engine was chosen and for that I am glad.
Reasons are
1) 6lxb would have been running hard in ours where as the 855 is at a fast idle
2) Parts and service for Gardner are difficult in most parts of the world, certainly not Cummins easy.

But, if I had no intention of venturing far yep, a Gardner is a pretty thing.

One thing I was 100% adamant about was no electronics and I would have preferred non turbo and.....the 855 would have the grunt in ours imho to be non turbo .
Simi 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2021, 03:22 AM   #19
Guru
 
Simi 60's Avatar
 
City: Queensland
Vessel Model: Milkraft 60 converted timber prawn trawler
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,271
Funnily enough some JD use 855 Cummins in harvesters
855 Cummins are Komatsu
Several other Cummins are Komatsu
Several Nanni are Kubota
And and and

Most engines aren't necessarily what they seem.
Simi 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2021, 03:27 AM   #20
Guru
 
Simi 60's Avatar
 
City: Queensland
Vessel Model: Milkraft 60 converted timber prawn trawler
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,271
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancora View Post
Been watching Vietnamese on Youtbe, rebuilding marine engines and installing new marine engines. Daewoo, Mistubishi, Hino, Cummins, Cats, Yanmar, and others...but never Volvos. Perhaps they know something?
Spent a bit of time on extended holidays in Saigon, Vung Tau, Cam Ranh , Nha Trang and Da Nang , renting apartments and a scooters and checking out the boat building industry and availability of mechanics hoping one day we can get in and you are correct. Never a Volvo was seen .
Nor a Gardner
__________________

Simi 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×