Internet onboard world wide is here!

[ben2go]

Onboard internet that spans most of the globe is here. Sailing channel SVDelos has had it for over a year in an experimental form. The release for the recreational market is supposed to be coming soon. Bryan and Karin have only good things to say about their set up and they have let others use their internet. Their speeds vary but 150mbps is what I've heard them say on their videos a few times.



Global Communications | Services, Solutions & Satellite Internet

 

[tpbrady]

I am familiar with Viasat and their services. The 150 Mbps is probably only available in the Viasat 2 coverage which for boats is near shore west coast of North and South America and most of the Atlantic basin. Viasat has 3 satellites under construction which should make this world wide with deployment in the next 2 years for 100 Mbps or better service. At that point the price wars may start between the Geos (Viasat, Hughes, Eutelsat, et al) and the Leo’s (Starlink, One Web, Telesat, and Kuiper). As always, the price of the marine terminal will be quite steep initially, but may come down as the terminal size gets smaller.

 

[dannc]

StarLink will be the game changer at $100 a month which I would bet will go time over time. It is not "supported" yet on boats but it will be along with vehicles, planes, and trains. Will take awhile for StarLink to get the version of satellites into orbit that will support ground stations on boats in the middle of no where, but if near shore and in the higher latitudes, StarLink is working on boats now.

Wish they would hurry up and get enough satellites up to connect my house. We have terrible Internet service. We signed up and hopefully will have the service in a few months.

Later,
Dan

 

[stevemitchell]

Starlink has been discussed a number of times and is definitely something to consider in a year or two once the mobile side of things has been worked out.

The Viasat solution Delos is using is still extremely expensive. The nice folks over at Sea-Tech Systems have written up a good article I have probably sent out 100 times in the last few months for customers who have asked about the solution:

https://seatech.systems/2020/03/31/how-do-i-get-high-speed-internet-on-my-boat/

It's definitely much faster than what is currently on the market, but you would need to spend $25k for the gear, and $1000 or more a month for service. Perhaps there will be some reduction in price for a full recreational release, but I can't imagine it will be that much cheaper....

 

[rsn48]

I wonder if it will be like XM radio, satellites geared for the bulk of the population, but not so much for more northern residents. I will believe it when I see it work along coastal BC.

 

[ksanders]

That is a GIGANTIC dome.

Like 3'X3'X3'

I REALLY like the idea of cheaper bandwidth, and competition will be driving that.

Right now I have a approx 18" diameter dome on my 47' boat. I cannot imagine a 3' dome up there but I suppose...

I think that folks need to be prepared for a very substantial hardware price, and I think that folks are vastly underestimating that initial hardware price.

Right now KVH has a MAP (minimum advertised price) on their V3-HTS system of $14,995. This is for the 14" dish, the same size I have.

The V7 version with a 24" dish has a MAP price of $27,995.

Why is the hardware so expensive??? Well, think about what you are trying to do. You have a very high gain dish, which means a very narrow beam.

You have to keep that pointed at a satellite 100% of the time while on a boat that is being moved about by the waves.

Not an easy thing to do.

 

[tpbrady]

RSN48

Viasat’s higher speed service won’t work on the BC coast until Viasat 3A gets into space, and yes the terminals are expensive. There might be two classes of terminals in the future when flat panels become mainstream like the Starlink terminals. One class will work at anchor or tied to a dock. By eliminating a stabilized platform or multiple flat panel arrays, it should be much less expensive and be practical for the smaller recreational vessel market, if someone thinks it is worth developing. The other will be the full blown stabilized terminal that could be used underway. I just wonder how well it will work with Leo’s as you really need to look in a full circle at a 40 degree elevation angle or above. Depending on where you can install the terminal, a lot of parts of the boat could be in the way at a given time. With the boat pitching, yawing, and rolling and the satellites moving avoiding service interruptions may be a problem. At least with a Geo, the satellite is fixed in place, and dead zones in relation to the satellite are known. Changing course a few degrees and you are back in service. There are a lot of other things that need to be considered, but tracking multiple moving targets with a moving target is not simple and initial acquisition or reacquisition is especially challenging.

 

[dannc]

I wonder if it will be like XM radio, satellites geared for the bulk of the population, but not so much for more northern residents. I will believe it when I see it work along coastal BC.

There is a cruiser on CF who is somewhere in the PNW who is using StarLink right now. StarLink was first available for people just north and south of the CA/US border so you should have coverage at this time. People farther south will have to wait until more satellites are in the constellation, which should be this summer. As long as one is coastal.

Later,
Dan

 

[rsn48]

I just saw a Tiktok of some guy using StarLink and loving the speed. Tried to find a YouTube version of it, but nothing.

 

[ben2go]

Glad I started this thread. I almost didn't. You guys have found info I haven't been able to find.

 

[twistedtree]

I just saw a Tiktok of some guy using StarLink and loving the speed. Tried to find a YouTube version of it, but nothing.

My understanding is that being a StarLink beta customer includes a confidentiality agreement. I suspect that's why there isn't more talk about how it's working for people.

 

[tpbrady]

There is a lot of discussion on Reddit about Starlink. The confidentiality agreement doesn’t seem that tight as Starlink’s approach is to generate media hype without advertising. However technical information is lacking so how it works to acquire and track satellites is more an educated guess than based on any technical data. The only real hard technical data is in Starlink’s FCC filings and is too general to understand how the terminal operates. The only thing I do know is that Starlink’s modem is capable of uplink and downlink speeds (>200 Mbps down and 10 Mbps up) greater than any consumer satellite modem in service today.

Tom

 

[dannc]

Reddit has quite a bit of StarLink info, there have been many news articles, and quite a bit of discussion on CF. Wikipedia has enough information to make your eyes glaze over.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlink

In 2020, Starlink had 14 launches if I can count correctly. They had three launches in October, only one in November and none in December. Looks like they went on vacation.

There were two launches in January and another two in February. This month, they have already launched three rockets, have another planned for the 24th, and one more before the end of the month, i.e., five launches.

Each of the Falcons are putting 60 satellites in orbit.

Once the StarShip rocket goes into service, it will launch 400, yes 400, Starlink satellites at a time.

Right now, best I can find, there are a bit over 1,000 Starlink satellites in orbit.

100% coverage is along the US/CA border but I found a website, hopefully it is accurate, that shows my area has coverage 99.4% of the time. We are supposed to have a connection in the June time frame.

From the user's antennae the signal goes up to a Starlink satellite and then down to a ground station which connects to the internet. My area is covered by at least three ground stations per some map I found somewhere.

This required link to a ground station is a current limitation since if you are in the middle of nowhere, say on a boat, and there is not ground station for the satellite to link too, you have no internet. However, Starlink just started launching a new version of the satellite that will have laser links to other satellites. This will allow a signal to go from the user terminal up to the satellite, and if required, go from satellite to satellite until the transmission can go back to ground to continue on the Internet.

The satellites with laser communication are slightly larger than the non laser satellites, so there will be a fewer launched per rocket, but I think there will still be 50+ per Falcon.

Musk has said that they intend to have Internet links to boats/ships, planes, vehicles and trains along with houses.

Later,
Dan

 

[ben2go]

There is a lot of discussion on Reddit about Starlink. The confidentiality agreement doesn’t seem that tight as Starlink’s approach is to generate media hype without advertising. However technical information is lacking so how it works to acquire and track satellites is more an educated guess than based on any technical data. The only real hard technical data is in Starlink’s FCC filings and is too general to understand how the terminal operates. The only thing I do know is that Starlink’s modem is capable of uplink and downlink speeds (>200 Mbps down and 10 Mbps up) greater than any consumer satellite modem in service today.

Tom

There are videos of the Starlink dish being dissected on youtube along with testing it's various parts.


Here is one but there are more.

 

[tpbrady]

Ben2go

I’ve seen those videos. Great from an engineering perspective but not so much from theory of operation. We keep unpeeling the onion. I am more interested in the installation limitations, capacity within a geographic area, inter satellite link operation, and gateway operation.

Tom

 

[Fletcher500]

I was previously looking at the KVH, TracPhone V3 Dome for off the beaten path service, but am holding off for now.

 

[Kit_L]

Joining this thread to stay informed; thanks Ben2!

 

[ben2go]

Joining this thread to stay informed; thanks Ben2!

You're welcome.

 

[ksanders]

KVH just announced the V30 mini Vsat terminal this week.

The M30 offers...

1. Lower cost by several thousand dollars (but it is still expensive at $11,995 MAP pricing, although dealers may sell lower they just cannot advertise lower.

2. Smaller indoor unit, reducing the volume to about the size of a home router.

3. Easier installation in that thewre is only one coax cable connecting the indoor unit to the antenna dome.

4. Improved performance. This is on many levels just like any technology advancement. One improvement for the techie types is that they now have the modem integral to the antenna dome, eliminating cable loss issues.

5. traffic allow/block at the protocol level eliminating airtime usage for things you do not need like icloud photo transfer, windows updates, etc...

6. Airtime plans that include no overage charges.

7. This is a DC system. While that makes no differenct to me, it might be a good point for boats that do not have a inverter supported AC system.

I am quite happy with this announcement and ordered one for delivery next week.

I recognize that this like all equipment will be competed with someday by other emerging technologies. but for me, today KVH offers the ability for me to run my business while cruising, which equals freedom for us. Freedom to cruise and still be in touch. Freedom to still maker a living. Freedom to cruise.



Here is a youtube video.

 

[ben2go]

KVH just announced the V30 mini Vsat terminal this week.

The M30 offers...

1. Lower cost by several thousand dollars (but it is still expensive at $11,995 MAP pricing, although dealers may sell lower they just cannot advertise lower.

2. Smaller indoor unit, reducing the volume to about the size of a home router.

3. Easier installation in that thewre is only one coax cable connecting the indoor unit to the antenna dome.

4. Improved performance. This is on many levels just like any technology advancement. One improvement for the techie types is that they now have the modem integral to the antenna dome, eliminating cable loss issues.

5. traffic allow/block at the protocol level eliminating airtime usage for things you do not need like icloud photo transfer, windows updates, etc...

6. Airtime plans that include no overage charges.

7. This is a DC system. While that makes no differenct to me, it might be a good point for boats that do not have a inverter supported AC system.

I am quite happy with this announcement and ordered one for delivery next week.

I recognize that this like all equipment will be competed with someday by other emerging technologies. but for me, today KVH offers the ability for me to run my business while cruising, which equals freedom for us. Freedom to cruise and still be in touch. Freedom to still maker a living. Freedom to cruise.



Here is a youtube video.

The video showed 6/2 mbps which is very slow internet even for a mobile solution.

 

[Fletcher500]

Ksanders,

Please keep us updated on your KVH V30. The last time I spoke to them was October 2020 and they had mentioned this was coming out. Interested to hear how it goes for you.

Edit - I attached the data rate plan. The last time I spoke to Tech Support (5 months ago), they said you can turn on and off plans, so only have the data plan active during the Summer for example when out cruising which is how we would use it. Still figuring out how to manage the data (adding up expected Voice, Net, file transfers, etc), and whether we would have enough capacity with one of the moderately priced plans.

 

[ksanders]

The video showed 6/2 mbps which is very slow internet even for a mobile solution.

OK, show me a faster global solution that I can purchase today, and that the antenna dome is not three feet in diameter. Something that will work at sea, not tied to a dock.

That is the trick... such a system is not available today. Maybe in a couple three years, but not today.

This is not future dreaming for me, I need a solution today. In a few years as technology matures I can then evaluate commercially deployable systems and make a different decision. Frankly I would love a faster cheaper connection.

If you want global connectivity right now you have two choices.

1. Geostationary satellite. This service is supplied by KVH, Viasat and I think a couple other players.

2. LEO satellite by Irridium.

The irridium system has a slightly lower hardware cost at around $6K but their speeds are limited to 720KBPS and theirt air time is in the rasnge of $1.45 a megabyte.

The geostationary providers have a hardware cost starting at $12K and up from there into the high $20K range. Domes start at 18" and go up to around 36". Weights range from 25 pounds to about 250 pounds. Speeds go up to around 15MBPS and air time is around $.050 per megabyte.

Most global com installations involve a router to choose the least cost path available. I have two cellular carriers, with satellite as a backup for when out of cellular range.

 

[ksanders]

Ksanders, please keep us updated on your KVH V30. The last time I spoke to them was October 2020 and they had mentioned this was coming out. Interested to hear how it goes for you.

Will do!

My gear will actually ship next week and I expect to do the install in 2-3 weeks.
I'm figuring on a single day job.

BTW my existing KVH older generation mini Vsat has performed admirable well for a decade. I am thinking the new system will be a significant improvement over that.

 

[twistedtree]

Ksanders,

Please keep us updated on your KVH V30. The last time I spoke to them was October 2020 and they had mentioned this was coming out. Interested to hear how it goes for you.

Edit - I attached the data rate plan. The last time I spoke to Tech Support (5 months ago), they said you can turn on and off plans, so only have the data plan active during the Summer for example when out cruising which is how we would use it. Still figuring out how to manage the data (adding up expected Voice, Net, file transfers, etc), and whether we would have enough capacity with one of the moderately priced plans.

There's a bit of fine print with this.


First, you need to maintain some sort of a plan. The cheapest for the V3IP that we had was $50/mo. There was no usable data with that (50mb), but it did maintain the phone service.


Anytime you change the plan level, there is a $100 service fee. So to change from the $50/mo maintenance plan to a larger plan for a month or two will cost you $200 in addition to the cost of the bigger plan. So depending on your expected usage, paying some overage charges on the $50 plan might be cheaper than changing to a bigger plan.

 

[AusCan]

but not so much for more northern residents. I will believe it when I see it work along coastal BC.

or southern residents

 

[ben2go]

OK, show me a faster global solution that I can purchase today, and that the antenna dome is not three feet in diameter. Something that will work at sea, not tied to a dock.

That is the trick... such a system is not available today. Maybe in a couple three years, but not today.

This is not future dreaming for me, I need a solution today. In a few years as technology matures I can then evaluate commercially deployable systems and make a different decision. Frankly I would love a faster cheaper connection.

If you want global connectivity right now you have two choices.

1. Geostationary satellite. This service is supplied by KVH, Viasat and I think a couple other players.

2. LEO satellite by Irridium.

The irridium system has a slightly lower hardware cost at around $6K but their speeds are limited to 720KBPS and theirt air time is in the rasnge of $1.45 a megabyte.

The geostationary providers have a hardware cost starting at $12K and up from there into the high $20K range. Domes start at 18" and go up to around 36". Weights range from 25 pounds to about 250 pounds. Speeds go up to around 15MBPS and air time is around $.050 per megabyte.

Most global com installations involve a router to choose the least cost path available. I have two cellular carriers, with satellite as a backup for when out of cellular range.

I use around 30gb a month for the web stuff I do so nothing would really be viable for me going by income produced vs cost. Sometimes I upload up to 7gb files at times so speed and bandwidth are of the essence.

 

[rslifkin]

I use around 30gb a month for the web stuff I do so nothing would really be viable for me going by income produced vs cost. Sometimes I upload up to 7gb files at times so speed and bandwidth are of the essence.

Most of the current satellite solutions aren't well suited to being a full time solution. They're for when you're out of range of better wifi and cellular options, but still need some connectivity.

 

[ksanders]

There's a bit of fine print with this.


First, you need to maintain some sort of a plan. The cheapest for the V3IP that we had was $50/mo. There was no usable data with that (50mb), but it did maintain the phone service.


Anytime you change the plan level, there is a $100 service fee. So to change from the $50/mo maintenance plan to a larger plan for a month or two will cost you $200 in addition to the cost of the bigger plan. So depending on your expected usage, paying some overage charges on the $50 plan might be cheaper than changing to a bigger plan.

I did trad somewhere that they are changing things in that you can completewly suspend your service now during the off season.

 

[ksanders]

Ksanders,

Please keep us updated on your KVH V30. The last time I spoke to them was October 2020 and they had mentioned this was coming out. Interested to hear how it goes for you.

Edit - I attached the data rate plan. The last time I spoke to Tech Support (5 months ago), they said you can turn on and off plans, so only have the data plan active during the Summer for example when out cruising which is how we would use it. Still figuring out how to manage the data (adding up expected Voice, Net, file transfers, etc), and whether we would have enough capacity with one of the moderately priced plans.

In the summer I get the 2GB per month plan and do not go over that by much.
I am thinking that with the new traffic shaping availability I won't have a problem. The big data user is iphone photos. They try to upload to the cloud, and then back down to each of our devices.

One time I had a apple TV software update happen while at the dock, just as the local. cellular died. That cost me a bit over $800.

How much data you use will depend on how much you are on satellite Vs on cellular. Thats why I have a cellular router with two SIM cards. The problem is that for 90% of our cruising cellular is spotty at best. Alaska is still a very remote place.

 

[Fletcher500]

KS,

Thanks for the info.

We would be using cellular 90% of the time, and have a wifi booster on the arch which helps with signal. I can sometimes can get wifi off our phones 30 plus miles off shore, but it's spotty.

We travel along the coast, but the problem is when we are in offshore Islands and tucked away in a cove and our service is not reliable for work related things. I am retired and just part time consulting now, but my wife is still full time and she needs a reliable Sat service for important phone calls, email, etc.

I haven't done much research on this lately because it will be a 2022 project if it happens, so I know enough to be dangerous at this point.

How are phone calls counted toward your data usage? I googled the amount of data they consume, but I am unclear how this translates within the data plan?

Is there an App you use for phone calls, or just normal phone usage as you would on land?

If you have say 5 hours of phone calls one day, how much data have you roughly used within your plan?