Internet Credit Card Fraud

[ddalme]

I received a call from my MasterCard Co. about a purchase that was being made online for merchandise to be shipped to an address in San Diego a few years ago. Of course I told them I didn't order the merchandise and didn't know anyone in San Diego. I never was charged and I've always wondered if the police showed up at the San Diego address. Hope they did

[O C Diver]

Originally Posted by ddalme

I received a call from my MasterCard Co. about a purchase that was being made online for merchandise to be shipped to an address in San Diego a few years ago. Of course I told them I didn't order the merchandise and didn't know anyone in San Diego. I never was charged and I've always wondered if the police showed up at the San Diego address. Hope they did

Credit card companies don't go after fraud perpetrators. It would cost them money in the form of employees wages. They're goal is to prevent it from happening, make sure they're not on the hook for the money, and keep their credit card holders happy, in that order. On two occasions I told Chase where the fraud originated from, and they weren't interested in persuing it as they weren't out any money and it would cost them man hours.

Ted

[BandB]

Originally Posted by ddalme

I received a call from my MasterCard Co. about a purchase that was being made online for merchandise to be shipped to an address in San Diego a few years ago. Of course I told them I didn't order the merchandise and didn't know anyone in San Diego. I never was charged and I've always wondered if the police showed up at the San Diego address. Hope they did

Doubt it seriously. As the attempted buyer didn't get away with it, the crime was very minor. Depending on the amount, some form of misdemeanor attempted theft.

I had a case in business years ago where someone placed an order through a major retail customer's account to a temporary warehouse location. They had all the information needed as they were assisted by an ex-buyer. Fortunately, we had one very alert customer service representative on our end. Well, FBI advised we must ship enough to make it a felony. So we shipped that amount and filled the boxes the rest of the way with old bricks and molds and various other things laying around. Our customer service representative was the star witness at their trial and this uncovered other thefts they'd gotten by with but no one noticed yet. They all got at least five years.

[Group9]

Never been the victim of credit card fraud? Go eat out in Miami Beach and pay for it with your credit card. You'll have at least a 50/50 chance of it happening.

[BandB]

I'm surprised at all the talk of person taking card in hand and looking on back and checking identity. Simply, outside restaurants I can't recall the last time anyone ever actually touched my card, much less looked at it.

As to giving the information by phone, I also can't recall the last time I did so for a purchase. I might call for information but then will make the purchase through their website. Far safer.

Now, all this pretty much renders the signature on the back a mute subject. I haven't signed the back of a card ever and haven't had that brought up by anyone in at least ten years.

One other signature now by the wayside in many cases too and that is the endorsement on the back of a check. Now that you can deposit checks from photographing them with your phone, from sliding them in ATM's, and businesses can through readers or many now slide them and then hand them back to you, endorsements are never looked at by any person.

I think we may start to see more two factor authentication but haven't seen it take hold yet.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Group9

Never been the victim of credit card fraud? Go eat out in Miami Beach and pay for it with your credit card. You'll have at least a 50/50 chance of it happening.

I don't know where you eat but I've eaten out dozens of times in Miami Beach and never had it happen and to my knowledge it's not much different than restaurants anywhere.

[jleonard]

Knock on teak, haven't been compromised as of yet.
I also have "CID" in my signature blocks, but only have been asked at 2 restaurants and a few liquor stores. That's over the course of many years.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by BandB

I don't know where you eat but I've eaten out dozens of times in Miami Beach and never had it happen and to my knowledge it's not much different than restaurants anywhere.

I just say that from all of the credit card fraud arrests we made in Miami Beach when I was there. Maybe it's better, now. The Russians in Sunny Isles Beach were giving waiters skimmers and paying them $100 bucks a night to skim customers cards. That's why you used to see so many ATM machines in Miami Beach Restaurants and clubs.

I know it must still be some of it happening. When I was down for the Miami boat show a few years ago, I made one charge in Miami Beach and my credit card company froze my card and called me because they figured it had been stolen. The lady I talked to told me they took a beating down there.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Group9

I just say that from all of the credit card fraud arrests we made in Miami Beach when I was there. .

Just how many years ago was that?

[BandB]

The highest risk places, and their merchant fees reflect it, are any adult businesses from bars and clubs to strip clubs to toy stores to massage parlors to escort services. One past thing happening too was restaurants allowing those businesses to use their processor, so the restaurant paid a small fee and billed the other a large fee. That has been clamped down on now and greatly reduced.

[Carolena]

Our cards have been compromised several times over the years - more when I used to travel a lot for work (and eat out most meals). Every time, the charges were reversed and a new card overnighted to me wherever I was located at the time. I caught most of the instances, as I check my account online several times a week, but before being able to check online, I wouldn't know until the statement arrived. Once, the company contacted me. The annoying thing is when your card gets flagged as you are making a purchase. That happened once at the grocery store because the checkout person didn't think the charge went through and tried to do it again, causing a flag for a duplicate charge. One reason to have at least two cards on you (was also embarrassing being told for the first time in my life my card was being declined).

Most recently, we had a couple fraudulent charges on the card and so I called the company. As always, they reversed the charges then sent a new card. A few days later, I got a shipping notification from one of the companies tied to the fraudulent charges. A few days after that, a box showed up at our house with a pair of expensive flipflops that we didn't order. I kept the credit card company updated as to all of this. They told us to just keep the item and don't worry about the charge. And the most ironic part of this is that I prosecute fraud cases in my day job!

[john61ct]

The US industry has thrown "what is right" right out the window.

Lack of effective industry oversight here means it's more profitable to just pass rising fraud losses on to customers and merchants, write it off against taxes etc.

In other, more civilized, parts of the world the regulators haven't been quite as thoroughly "captured" through systemic corruption so they better look after the public interest, not just the 1%.

Our public sector has applied **zero** lessons from the 2008 collapse, which resulting depression continues to drastically impact the bottom 80% of the working population worldwide.

But since the top 10% have mostly recovered, no problem, lots of desperate workers is a feature, not a bug for the rich.

Point is, there is nothing in place to prevent the next collapse from requiring maybe even bigger bailouts.

And the sanctity of the USD as the world trading currency is ever increasingly threatened, when that is gone the whole house of cards comes down and we (the bottom 80%) join the third world.

/end rant

[HiDHo]

I talked this afternoon with the internet sales mgr. where I used the card last, he assured me they don't store names, addresses and card #'s. CC fraud hackers like companies that store this type info, they hack into the data and get thousands of card#'s and sales data. Tip off for this marine sales company is CC purchases near the end of the business day for multiple items with a different delivery address. They of course order the items overnight delivery and pick the package up at the distribution center before it goes out for delivery using of course phoney ID's. Then to fence the multiple items they need buyers buying at half price for the new in the box loot. He of course didn't mention what % his companies loss is and how it's passed on to the consumers to keep there profit margin in tack. I guess we are headed for Bitcoins !

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by O C Diver

Credit card companies don't go after fraud perpetrators. It would cost them money in the form of employees wages. They're goal is to prevent it from happening, make sure they're not on the hook for the money, and keep their credit card holders happy, in that order. On two occasions I told Chase where the fraud originated from, and they weren't interested in persuing it as they weren't out any money and it would cost them man hours.

Originally Posted by Larry M

Your right. My brother-in-law is a restaurant owner in Vermont. Last month I asked him why he doesn't have the personnel card readers. He said he can't justify the cost since he would need at least three at ~$600/machine.

So the banks don't want to spend money (manpower), and the restaurants don't really lose anything by not having chip readers... and generally the credit card holder doesn't really lose money either (all that inconvenience aside)...

Seems like it's the other ("follow-on"?) retailers who lose most when skimmed cards have been used to acquire their merchandise... for which they're not reimbursed after fraudulent activity has been identified.

And I guess they can't get to the critical mass required to induce a system-wide fix...

Even though those same retailers have to load their prices to balance against losses due to theft and fraud...

And even though those loaded prices pretty much affect consumers everywhere... there doesn't seem to be any huge ground swell of consumer lobbying for solution...

-Chris

[Seevee]

Originally Posted by john61ct

The US industry has thrown "what is right" right out the window.

Lack of effective industry oversight here means it's more profitable to just pass rising fraud losses on to customers and merchants, write it off against taxes etc.

In other, more civilized, parts of the world the regulators haven't been quite as thoroughly "captured" through systemic corruption so they better look after the public interest, not just the 1%.

Our public sector has applied **zero** lessons from the 2008 collapse, which resulting depression continues to drastically impact the bottom 80% of the working population worldwide.

But since the top 10% have mostly recovered, no problem, lots of desperate workers is a feature, not a bug for the rich.

Point is, there is nothing in place to prevent the next collapse from requiring maybe even bigger bailouts.

And the sanctity of the USD as the world trading currency is ever increasingly threatened, when that is gone the whole house of cards comes down and we (the bottom 80%) join the third world.

/end rant

Yea, wish we, as a country, would do more to prevent fraud and prosecute the perps. However, might disagree on the 80%, as we ALL are affected. We all pay taxes the provides for the bail outs. And the lower 80% pay less taxes. And the 80% crowd didn't do any worse than anyone else in the collapse, as a lot of them ended up with free housing for a few years and even loan forgiveness when a lot of folks just paid their bills and struggled thru it.

And the top 10% probably loose a lot more in a collapse, but have the smarts and ability to recover.

[Seevee]

Originally Posted by Larry M

Your right. My brother-in-law is a restaurant owner in Vermont. Last month I asked him why he doesn't have the personnel card readers. He said he can't justify the cost since he would need at least three at ~$600/machine.

Larry,

I don't understand why he wouldn't spend the lousy $1800 to help prevent fraud in his restaurant which probably costs him a ton more. Heck, if he needs three of those machines, he's probably doing $10K in revenue a day, so the cards would cost him a few hours of revenue.

And CC fraud in restaurants is significant. Of the restaurant owners I know, they all have it... some continuously. There are so many ways to get your number its hard to imagine.

For me, it's ALWAYS cash at a restaurant... and prefer exact change. Never a CC.

[Seevee]

I've been lucky.... no CC fraud at all, but a few times the CC company "thought" there could be and sent me a new card. I occasionally just ask for a new card for that reason, but doubt it does a lot.

I try to order stuff from reputable companies, like Amazon or favorite vendors. I like the mom and pop stores where I know them, or a larger company that has the ability to put more fraud prevention into their system.

Now, what worries me is gas stations. I still use a CC there, because it's really convenient. Cash is a pain, having to go in, drop the cash off and if the amount is different, go back in for change. For you experts, are there any techniques to use to reduce CC fraud at gas stations?

Do the scammers have the ability to read your card from a distance, electronically? Or do they have to see it?

[Larry M]

Originally Posted by Seevee

Larry,

I don't understand why he wouldn't spend the lousy $1800 to help prevent fraud in his restaurant which probably costs him a ton more. Heck, if he needs three of those machines, he's probably doing $10K in revenue a day, so the cards would cost him a few hours of revenue.

And CC fraud in restaurants is significant. Of the restaurant owners I know, they all have it... some continuously. There are so many ways to get your number its hard to imagine.

For me, it's ALWAYS cash at a restaurant... and prefer exact change. Never a CC.

On a busy night he serves 200 dinners (only opened from 5-10:30pm). In the summer, 100 dinners is a good night. I guess, one reader would be at the bar and the other 2 would be split between the wait staff? He hasn't had any staff double swipe or steal CC #s. Customers using bad CC are not a problem. Who's going to use a stolen CC for a sit down meal or eat/drink at the bar? The restaurant is in a ski area in Vermont so maybe the cliental is different? Some of his wait staff has been with him for over 25 years and I know he has a bunch of regular customers that keep him alive in the off season.

His staff would love to have you for a customer. We were having breakfast one morning when I asked how many people pay with cash. He said last night he had $120. Lena and I looked at each other and laughed. $80 of that was for us. Almost everyone uses a credit or debit card. The wait staff and bartender hate it.

[Mike.p]

Originally Posted by HiDHo

One tip we received from a police official is to never sign the back of the card. instead write in the space " ask for I.D. ". e.

I do this too

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Seevee

Do the scammers have the ability to read your card from a distance, electronically? Or do they have to see it?

There are many different ways they can get it at a gas station or ATM. Most of it is done by skimming by using a device at the credit card reader. If the readers all had EMV technology that would be reduced. The cost of retooling is $3.9 billion and the date has been moved back several times. The last I knew the deadline was 2020.

Here's an article on preventing credit card fraud at gas stations, but not really a solution.

https://www.gobankingrates.com/credi...card-gas-pump/

While gas stations and ATM's are most prone to issues, let's not overlook the massive incident with Target and those with other retailers.

We're in an electronic age. Whether it's credit cards or just storage of information. We regularly have companies hacked and information stolen. While we might work hard to reduce risk, we are far from eliminating it. That's the reason we must all individually remain alert and regularly check out own accounts.

Many of the solutions, are not really. For instance, the person who won't use their card at a restaurant but then goes to an ATM before dining to withdraw cash. ATM's have been regular targets of card information theft and skimming and places of robbery.

Your real protection as an individual is twofold. It's you keeping on top of all charges to your cards and it's the fraud prevention efforts of your bank, which for most banks today has gotten very good. They are quick to put temporary holds until you confirm transactions.

Now, the one card I do not use is a debit card. Here the risk is going directly after your bank account, a slightly lower level of fraud protection, and longer time to get the charge or charges reversed. Plus it removes money from your account. The only worse exposure is if you have overdraft protection, then it removes money beyond that you have. I strongly advise against anyone having overdraft protection. One thing to allow theft of money you have but to continue beyond that is worse. Overdraft protection increases your exposure in the event of identity theft or theft by check or electronic check. I know that the only way my account would ever be overdrawn is a thief and I sure don't want protection of them.

Then there's the whole issue of passwords and codes and most people remain careless with them.