Interesting near collision

[psneeld]

and then there is a spot on AICW..... headed south, river Stbd side going to the ocean (cut), AICW crosses the river, if a ship or boat approaches from the Stbd, who has the right of way?

Every bay, river, sound..... south of the Chesapeake the ship would still be stand on because they would all be considered narrow channel situations. The exceptions might be the sounds behind the Outer Banks such as Pamlico, or the beginning of the Neuse River. Maybe more, but the rule is that if the vessel is following a channel AND needs to stay in a channel....so large, shallow draft vessels that may be able to manuever should really arrange a passing situation by radio or whistle...and if not....this is where rule 2 applies (in my opinion).

 

[OldDan1943]

I remember the days when I lived a couple of blocks from Lake St Clair way way back in 1940s, foggy days, way before ships had radios and RADAR. Ore carriers had to rely on the ship's horn. We could always tell if the lake was foggy by the increased horn usage.
SOME people actually complained about the noise from the ships' horns.......
Well now, with RADAR, radios...... seldom if ever will you hear a ship's horn. SIGH

 

[psneeld]

You do have to know basic lights and whistles to be able to follow the basic rules. That is where the basic safety courses seem to fall short. They need to emphasize them the same way drivers ed emphasizes road signs. The combo of aids to nav and lights (nighttime rules following)/whistles (agreeing when doubt about visual clues or understanding which rule both can/will apply) act like Road signs/laws and should be a strong emphasis in the courses.

AIS..... not really required. Racios are not even required.. I say require radios long before AIS.....Heck requiring and enforcing radio use so vessels get used to talking to large vessels would help To me, the issue is in many areas, the volume of AIS and radio traffic would become a detriment to the situations that need it. In my mind, there is no good answer there..... other than learning the rules or at least the concepts behind them.

Fun always gets out of hand when machinery in involved. Make boating difficult and for the hobby boaters, you take the fun out of it...and here comes big bad government. Probably not gonna happen for awhile.

Look what happened when they started making people take a relatively short on line safety course. Outrage!

Here is a grandiose assumption on my part because I really have only a few "facts", but my time on the water and teaching experience gives me confidence it happens a lot.. The guy in the sailboat in this situation is /was one of those guys who resented the test because he had been sailing his whole life....but obviously didn't know squat.

Look at how many misunderstandings of the rules or not knowing them have been brought up in this thread by many "experienced" boaters.

 

[rwidman]

There seems to be concensus that the sailboater is in the wrong because of the limits of the freighter but how can we expect the sailboater to know those limits ?

Unless the sailboater is a really dumbass, common sense should have been enough.

He should have seen that ship coming at him ten minutes or more before it got that close and his first thought should have been to get the hell out of its way.

I don't remember where or when I first learned that large ships cannot maneuver the same as small boats, but it was a long time ago. Unless this sailor just started boating within the last week, he should have been exposed to that information at some point.

It's a shame we can't get that sailboater to join this group and explain what he was thinking at the time of this incident.

 

[Hippocampus]

Don’t disagree and know my sounds and whistles. But reality is on most of the boats I spend time on you put the cursor on the dot and tap. Know the name if you want to chat, the course, closest point, time to closest point, type of vessel, length etc etc. Now I’m pretty in to this stuff. Think more in to it than the average weekend warrior. Still, I need to pop up Seabook or take out the slide rule to be certain of my lights.
To think for a moment the average weekend warrior is going to do the education you suggest on a voluntary basis with out some form of incentive is wishful thinking iimho. Much more likely he buys something for under a boat buck and due to incentives learns the basics that would fairly dramatically decrease the amount of boneheaded behavior out there on the water.
Have used a lot of amateur crew. Tell them I do not want to come within 2 nm of the side or behind a ship nor 5 nm in front of a ship. Much happier at greater distances than that which is easily done with AIS/radar. Correct as early as possible and make it 90 degrees if we’re going to run parallel or at least 40 degrees otherwise. Admittedly this is open waters. I expect the ship to have limited English. I don’t assume there’s anyone at the helm nor listening to the VHF. I want my crew to act so there’s never a need for interaction.
Now coastal or in high traffic I only want skilled mariners at the helm. They should have enough sense they are playing chess not checkers. Using radar and AIS there’s no need for any stressful crossing situation to develop. Any many have forgotten their lights and day signals. Most remember their sounds.
PS they say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I totally agree with it would be wonderful if either by experience, course work, home or supervised everyone had your skill set. My view is ain’t gonna happen. Not even close. Now in the US every drivers knows to stay on the right side of a divided road. Simple. Works. Fewer head on collisions. Stay on the right side of a channel. Every driver knows flashing lights means caution. Simple. Every driver knows a flare on the side of the road means a disabled vehicle. Simple effective stuff. For lights the biggies seem to be tows, restricted maneuverability, and stuff like that. And realize most don’t run at night ever. I don’t mention fish boats because around here they’re just bright white blobs. Can’t even see running lights through the white glare.
Think you ask too much. Here we have interested motivated intelligent folk. And they can’t get the nuances of colregs right. So pragmatically it better to be helpful than right. Greatest good for the greatest number. Stop putting angels on pin heads. I offered a program I could teach an elementary student in 15 minutes to follow. I further have put commercially available stickers at each helm outlining the basic rules of the road and sounds. Believe I’ve increased my safety and those around me significantly. Your approach has been around since I started boating 3 decades ago. I think behavior on the water has gotten worse not better.
Respect your skill set and experience. Feel your statements confirm my opinion. End of day you’re saying the vast majority of recreational boaters don’t have your skill set. I’m saying that’s true. Don’t think I have your skill set even after around 60-70,000 nm under my keel. Maybe more can only think of the long transits. Still, think I run a safe boat. Ask me what’s a red over two whites with green and red on the diagonal. My answer is at 3 am beats me or expect crew to know without an aid. But I know it’s coming at me. Better figure it out. But AIS in less than 3 seconds tells right off if I need to be concerned and commonsense tells me what to do. First need to turn so I know I’m going bow first into it and getting closer. Second do total situational assessment. Yes knowing my lights off the top of my head would be good. Usually I do. Haven’t had a boat for ~1 year need to brush up. Most people never learned them and NEVER will.

 

[psneeld]

Most near collisions probably are not offshore at night.

They are in crowded water ways between 2 less than 20 meter vessels....or between a small vessel and a very large vessel in crowded Harbors.

On holiday weekends there are hundreds of boats all zipping around ( or paddling ) in a mile of ICW in many p,aces.

Radios on jet skis? AIS on bowriders without even a chatplotter?...many not even a compass....but they have a full cooler and 500Ws of sound system as they tow tubers, skiers, wakeboarders within 100 feet of a busy fuel dock.

As I said, I doubt there is a reasonable answer for this mess....not sure we ever will have one for the ore carrier/sailboat even.

All I think I can do is keep informing people of the rules, what they mean and how a prudent seaman might apply them. Unfortunately, maybe many tune out threads like this as there are often too many incorrect opinions overwhelming the kernels of the actual rules from people that may actually know them and link the appropriate rules for the situation. I am not always correct, but I do research and correct the best I can.

For those that don't hear my and other's cries in the wilderness great, but close calls will continue. Just like accidents on the road where hands on training/licensing, strict laws, reasonably clear signs, painted lanes, and loud horns have existed for decades.

 

[SteveK]

...
Certificate of competence is mandatory in some parts of the world..... However, see no problem with insurance companies devising a simple test of knowledge of the rules of the road and giving a credit on premiums upon passing it. Just the basic rules of the road. .... Not onerous but enough to keep people out of most dangerous situations. ....
Any vessel not human powered operating in federal waters should have a AIS transceiver. Not a receiver. At this point would consider it the price of admission. Costs have come down enough I think if you can’t afford it pick another hobby. ....
....

Boaters card is a very basic intro to boating, it was made mandatory. OK, but having the card does not give basic operator skills.
There should be mandatory course similar to what is needed to get a car drivers license, with an actual on water exam. That boaters card should be a boaters drivers license showing basic course taken, water test passed.

AIS mandatory, I think not. $$ cost never entered my mind when dismissing that equipment. A receiver is still being considered. I do not feel AIS transmission is needed for a pleasure craft that can stop, change course quickly. IT must be mandatory for vessels that cannot stop, maneuver quickly. That way if you have a receiver going through a field of boats you know which ones to stay clear from.

Finally you cannot have it both ways. Either you want someone at the helm while on auto pilot OR not drinking while driving. You can't have it both ways.

 

[psneeld]

Drinking and driving has shown up to be pretty prevalent ( well not common but worse than it should be) by long distance tug captains.

Going that slow and easily decided rules issues.....guess more than a scant few decided to perk things up a bit....if they didn't drink, their phone became the crutch.

Auto pilot can help along in that spiral down scenario.

Like airline pilots every few years.....hours and hours of boredom seldom interrupted by terror.

 

[Hippocampus]

Totally agree with you so let’s break it down
Jet skis are a menace. In my view should be illegal to operate in channels, anchorages, through racing fields. Fines apply for violations and even forfeiture for significantly dangerous violations.
Segregation of waters. Sensible people do this anyway. I fish off my Hobie 360 pro fisherman. I don’t fish in channels nor active waters. Simple logic. I don’t want to be hit by the idiots or low fliers. Swimming waters are often segregated or different rules apply when you are in them. You don’t run a ski boat nor bow rider through them or any boat at full throttle. Some places it’s codified. Should be every place. Sure come in on a perpendicular at no wake and anchor to enjoy the beach. But don’t kill people. Nearly every year down in the Caribbean you hear of people swimming out to their boats when anchored or moored run over by a dinghy on plane. Maimed or killed. Up here the waters are cold so guess not relevant. Maybe is in Florida. Still, a no wake zone for anchorages makes sense. And a no wake zone for any waters within a thousand feet of land. That includes powered small craft of any form.
Don’t think the yo-yo s on jet skis, bow riders, flats boats or any other small craft you want to mention have the right to endanger other people’s lives without their consent. Same thinking as applies to hunting. I love to hunt. Drives me nuts I can’t bow hunt in places where I think risk to others is negligible. Nor use a rifle in other places. Still, I’m 100% behind those rules. Saves lives. So those vessels you talk about are both a PIA and a danger. Have no problem if they want to kill themselves using them. Neither do I have a problem with people owning them. Do think manner of usage and place of usage should be restricted just like with hunting. I could shoot deer off my front porch at the break of day. No risk to anyone. But I’m too near my street then so don’t. Think you have to make it simple, universally applied and strict. People can still own and operate any small craft they want. But people don’t have the right to endanger, maim or kill other people without their consent. End of rant.

 

[Hippocampus]

Steve take a look of what’s involved in getting the EU certificate of competence. It’s not anything like a boaters card. Actually requires meaningful extensive skills.

Well, guess you don’t helm for me. Don’t drink and drive. Don’t drink and operate a boat. Period. Google it. Alcohol is involved in all too many boating deaths. Most deaths are in small boats. Fine let Darwin play out. My more pressing concern is innocent victims.

With a transceiver you have two operators that may avoid an accident. With a receiver you have one and that one is less likely to act appropriately. The distinction between licensed vessels and recreational craft is meaningless in this context. Doesn’t matter to me whose at the helm controlling 50 tons of boat. Nor 15 tons. Either can ruin my day. What matters is tonnage, speed, maneuverability and setting. So if you what to play with the big boys get a transceiver. Would even accept a transmitter over a receiver as acceptable. Or just stay out of mixed waters. I just want to know if you’re a risk I need to respond to. Same thinking as segregating small craft out of certain zones or requiring certain behaviors.

Around here you cannot run the cape cod canal without sufficient power to navigate it safely. Period. Army Corp will tow you or force you out. Simple totally goal directed rule. Also makes sense. Believe what I posted is the same kind of thinking. PS has eloquently posted what the problem is. Has also stated the best of all possible worlds.

But nothing changes unless you change it. Yes, enforcement would be problematic. But believe enough enforcement to change the culture would be enough to save boats and lives. Don’t let the perfect interfere with the good. The culture on the water is deteriorating. How many times have you’ve gotten the finger when some idiot has put you at risk or himself. We stopped talking on the vhf long ago. Not productive. Rule is assume they’re idiots and stay away from them. Just like assume you’re invisible when riding a motorcycle.

 

[OldDan1943]

I will admit, I have a switch on my AIS, normal and passive.

 

[psneeld]

We went how many weeks, months during the Summer in the US with how many posts like this?

How many registered vessels?

How many near misses that would have been serious?

How many serious collisions this year between small and large vessels?

How many were due to rule infractions?

Are we looking for a solution to a problem that will be so restrictive it only changes a little to the detriment of many?

Discussions and educating about the complexities of safe boating are important. If members are ambassadors of smart boating, hopefully the learning will be wide spread.

Finding a solution would be nice, with full time boating safety pros looking at it, eventually we might find an answer.

 

[SteveK]

Steve take a look of what’s involved in getting the EU certificate of competence. It’s not anything like a boaters card. Actually requires meaningful extensive skills.
I do not live in the EU so it matters not what they do. I boat in an area where boat operators from two countries boat. My opinion is about where I boat.
On most trips I must avoid BC Ferries and freighters, which is relatively easy day or night. Anticipate where they must go and avoid being in the way.

Many years ago I took power/sail squadron courses to a level of AP including sextant. BUT, even then there was never an on the water component.
As that organization is dying we were asked for our opinion why. I guess of course my opinion was too critical. I told them that it has become a money pit bureaucracy. The course is taught by volunteers without pay, the rooms were (then) free in school classrooms, yet the course fees continued to climb to what the market would bear. When the economy shifts, these courses were no longer willingly taken. SAD. Dues are increasing again to cover overhead.
New boaters can easily buy a boat without having to spend a dime to learn how to operate them.

Too bad we will never learn what training the sailboat captain has.

 

[dannc]

... My problems is that it seems unreasonable to expect the average recreational skipper to understand that since they don't have any kind of professional training or experience on 250+ foot boats.

I know a lot of guys here are very experienced and trained but imagine you are an untrained rooky for a moment. You see a big boat....you see a lot of space behind you....it seems obvious that the freighter will just pass behind you. You don't even begin the colreg evaluation process because there is no imminent collision.

One of my first boating memories is going out on two "speed" boats, as we used to call them, with my parents, some family and friends. I was 3-5 years old but most likely three.

We went up the St. Johns river to one of the springs, and on the way back, we saw a tug pushing some barges. Two other "speed" boats sped by the barges and zipped closely in front of said barges. I think the morons did this to give a "thrill" to the women on the boats. I was THREE and I knew what they did was stupid, reckless and dangerous. The tug captain could not have seen the boats they turned in so close to the bow of the tug, not that he could have done a thing to stop in any case. I knew this and I was THREE.

Someone lost a ball cap after they swooped in front of the barges. I remember thinking that if they are stupid enough to stop to get the hat, they are all going to DIE. If a THREE year old can figure this out, it is not rocket science. We expect people to be able to safely walk across a street for goodness sake....

Year later I was at the helm of my dad's sailboat as we came into Miami via Government Cut. As we got close to the cut and turned into the cut, we could see small freighter heading our way. No doubt where it was going to go. I had no training at all but I knew danged well to stay to the right side of that channel and I did. We kept a sharp watch on that freighter and it was obvious he was moving much faster than we were. This does not take training. It is not rocket science. But one does have to be aware and look around.

Then, all of a sudden your sailboat gets stuck in an eddy current, you point too high into the wind and you lose all forward momentum......then the freighter turns much sharper than you expected and all of a sudden you are crapping your shorts, and you can't steer a boat that isn't moving.

I honestly think the sailor didn't see the crisis developing because he didn't know the freighter couldn't go where he expected it to go, and he didn't expect his own boat to stall like it did.

I would like to know what was happening on the sailboat.

My guess is that they had a problem and got distracted. Been There Done That. Even being distracted, we have kept our eye open to other traffic including ships but people do make mistakes. Tis life.

The sail boat captain and crew should have been watching the ship and they should have moved out of the ships way. They should have seen that ship early enough to do so, even in the bend of the river. We do this every time we go sailing. There are two ships that come and go and we watch for them. We can see them when they are leaving their dock and we are miles away and we can see them at sea.

I would hope the sail boat was not trying to sail down the river. Motor sail ok, if allowed, but to just sail in that area would not be something I would do.

Later,
Dan

 

[dannc]

Wayfarer,

Is there any radio traffic from the ships announcing they are in the area and about to go under the bridge?

Where we are sailing, there are two ships that come and go. They announce on VHF when they are leaving the dock, docking and arriving at the safe water buoy at the inlet.

Just curious if there is any routine radio traffic.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[markpierce]

Kayaks (especially green and blue ones) and other small stealthy vessels are easy to overlook and are a good source of possible collision. Never known one equipped with radio, radar, or AIS. Hate it when a kayaker rides my wake three feet of my beam in my blind spot.

 

[Wayfarer]

Wayfarer,

Is there any radio traffic from the ships announcing they are in the area and about to go under the bridge?

Where we are sailing, there are two ships that come and go. They announce on VHF when they are leaving the dock, docking and arriving at the safe water buoy at the inlet.

Just curious if there is any routine radio traffic.

Thanks,
Dan

It is common practice to make a securite call on channels 16 and 13 when departing a dock or a port. If there’s lots of small traffic close by, I also assume that they don’t have a radio on, and I’ll lay on the horn for a good long blast to wake everyone up.

I’ll also make securite calls 1 hour and 30 minutes before arriving at a port, or when passing through confined areas like the Straits of Mackinaw, or Grays Reef. I’ll make calls at various points when maneuvering up and down smaller rivers like Saginaw or Cuyahoga or Calumet, just to keep the traffic and bridges appraised of where I am and where I’m going.

In the the St Clair River, securite calls aren’t as common, since the area is managed by a Vessel Traffic Service. We communicate with Traffic at regular intervals along the river, and several times on either side of the Bluewater Bridge. VTS is on channel 11 there, 12 in the Detroit and St Marys, and 14 in other areas. Technically when a ship is in a VTS zone, we aren’t required to stand watch on channel 16, since traffic will do that for us, but we always do anyway.

 

[dannc]

...
In the the St Clair River, securite calls aren’t as common, since the area is managed by a Vessel Traffic Service. We communicate with Traffic at regular intervals along the river, and several times on either side of the Bluewater Bridge. VTS is on channel 11 there, 12 in the Detroit and St Marys, and 14 in other areas. Technically when a ship is in a VTS zone, we aren’t required to stand watch on channel 16, since traffic will do that for us, but we always do anyway.

Thank you. That is interesting.

Later,
Dan

 

[Jeff F]

That makes sense. It justifies the actions of the frieghter. It is certainly more plausible that my misunderstanding is due to my limited knowledge rather than an error in judgement on the Captain's part. Thanks for following the thread and taking the time to add your insight.

Agreed. Thanks Dave for your explanation.

I can see both sides now. The sailboat could have been heading right intending to stay clear, but didn't understand the constraint the ship was under.

 

[rwidman]

Wayfarer,

Is there any radio traffic from the ships announcing they are in the area and about to go under the bridge?

Where we are sailing, there are two ships that come and go. They announce on VHF when they are leaving the dock, docking and arriving at the safe water buoy at the inlet.

Just curious if there is any routine radio traffic.

Thanks,
Dan

Most sailboats only turn on their VHF if they are going to transmit something. I can almost never raise a sailboat on the VHF when I need to contact him.

 

[catalinajack]

Boaters card is a very basic intro to boating, it was made mandatory. OK, but having the card does not give basic operator skills.

There should be mandatory course similar to what is needed to get a car drivers license, with an actual on water exam. That boaters card should be a boaters drivers license showing basic course taken, water test passed.



AIS mandatory, I think not. $$ cost never entered my mind when dismissing that equipment. A receiver is still being considered. I do not feel AIS transmission is needed for a pleasure craft that can stop, change course quickly. IT must be mandatory for vessels that cannot stop, maneuver quickly. That way if you have a receiver going through a field of boats you know which ones to stay clear from.



Finally you cannot have it both ways. Either you want someone at the helm while on auto pilot OR not drinking while driving. You can't have it both ways.

If every craft had an AIS transceiver just imagine the number of targets that would be appearing on our screens.

 

[HTurner]

If every craft had an AIS transceiver just imagine the number of targets that would be appearing on our screens.

With fisherman turning them off while fishing and the dolts of pleasure boaters that leave them on at the dock... pure aggravation.

 

[Hippocampus]

Can easily see which vectors will intersect you. A non issue. We like two screens or a split screen. Chart on one side. Radar and AIS on the other. Some like overlays. In either case it’s pretty easy to decide which targets to attend to.

 

[Hippocampus]

A lot of mega yachts and others will anchor at the mouth of an anchoring bay. Sometimes for security reasons, other times for privacy, and lastly because they just don’t fit. They are not dolts but rather prudent. I find it helpful to know where they are as I leave the sea and enter the bay. Sure no reason for it in a mooring field or in a slip. But just like the black ball makes perfect sense in other settings.

 

[OldDan1943]

I suspect, in time of war or unrest, the Navy have been instructed to either turn off their AIS or go to passive.
Maybe the US Navy ships have a system to interrogate other ships' AIS while remaining their passive AIS.

 

[Seevee]

Most sailboats only turn on their VHF if they are going to transmit something. I can almost never raise a sailboat on the VHF when I need to contact him.

How true. I wish they would just communicate, would be SO much easier and safer.

 

[Hippocampus]

While I in practice a nearly weekly occurrence in season was attending to near drowning. Reading the local rage deaths were common as well. Unfortunately usually the young. Very few were commercial fishing folk or involved substantial documented boats. The vast majority were small craft. Overloaded, drunk or high, rapid rate of speed, going out in inappropriate weather or mechanical failure beyond access to surveillance hence rapid tow. Agree “you can’t fix stupid” as Jeff famously said. And agree putting AIS on them won’t change this type of dangerous behavior. Put having segregated areas for these activities and codified behavior for this high risk behavior will imho. Some of the saddest days in practice were declaring brain death on some teenager (usually a good kid) who in the quest for a fun day ends up dead. Worst was chronic vegetative state where the tragedy lingers on.and on.

 

[Hippocampus]

Know this is a trawler site. Will say most of vhf non responsiveness I’ve encountered is from small powercraft with sportfish coming in second. Including sail and power my guess socializing with an adult beverage in hand is the common denominator.

 

[SteveK]

Remember that statistics only report the unfortunate events. The yahoos that made it home, the social drinker that made it home are not counted. Those with undiagnosed brain death made it home.

 

[Benthic2]

I suspect, in time of war or unrest, the Navy have been instructed to either turn off their AIS or go to passive.
Maybe the US Navy ships have a system to interrogate other ships' AIS while remaining their passive AIS.

The Navy routinely didn't turn on their AIS until recently when they decided to turn it on in high traffic areas after a few collisions with other ships.