Interesting near collision

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Andiamo2018 said:
And the sailboat does not appear to be crossing the channel - just sailing south but being pushed out by the current.

A cop chases a suspect and shots at him, hitting a bystander. The bystander was clearly in the wrong place at the wrong time and he got shot. But the cops' training included NOT shooting bystanders no matter what.

The freighter captain made a mistake - I think clearly indicated by his following turn to port AFTER scaring the sailboat.
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He did not. He has no choice in where to go, he must stay in the channel.
 
Boats are prohibited from crossing the dredged shipping channel in San Pablo Bay (part of the San Francisco Estuary).
 
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Arrest the pilot on the tanker. You can see how easy it was for him to maneuver after passing the sale boat. He must be around 20 years old at best.
 
Dad had a house on the St Clair River and the current is 'rapid'. He could see the Blue Water bridge between the US and Canada. IF the ship was trying to turn into the side river to Sarnia (sp) they have range board to assist making the turn. With the current and tight turn, things can get a bit hairy making that turn.
Even with the chart, I really cant orient myself.
When the freighters and ore carries went by his place, the river level would go down and return to normal due to the bow wake and the prop wash.
 
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I keep having a hard time orienting myself too :)

If the freighter did NOT make a mistake then why did he have to turn starboard again before actually beginning the turn to go under the bridges?

Boats are clearly allowed to cross the shipping channel in San Pablo Bay or boats would never be able to leave :) The rule is to cross perpendicular to the shipping channel.

Even if the sailboat was doing something blatantly wrong that doesn't mean you can just plow over it. Everyone has a responsibility to be safe and avoid a collision. The freighter was simply not operating in a safe way.
 
arcadia said:
Arrest the pilot on the tanker. You can see how easy it was for him to maneuver after passing the sale boat. He must be around 20 years old at best.
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Hmmmm, ever drive anything other than a pleasure boat
 
Andiamo2018 said:
I keep having a hard time orienting myself too :)

If the freighter did NOT make a mistake then why did he have to turn starboard again before actually beginning the turn to go under the bridges?

Boats are clearly allowed to cross the shipping channel in San Pablo Bay or boats would never be able to leave :) The rule is to cross perpendicular to the shipping channel.

Even if the sailboat was doing something blatantly wrong that doesn't mean you can just plow over it. Everyone has a responsibility to be safe and avoid a collision. The freighter was simply not operating in a safe way.
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Ever drive something that big? Half that big? Over 100 ton?
 
Andiamo2018 said:
I keep having a hard time orienting myself too :)

If the freighter did NOT make a mistake then why did he have to turn starboard again before actually beginning the turn to go under the bridges?

Boats are clearly allowed to cross the shipping channel in San Pablo Bay or boats would never be able to leave :) The rule is to cross perpendicular to the shipping channel.

Even if the sailboat was doing something blatantly wrong that doesn't mean you can just plow over it. Everyone has a responsibility to be safe and avoid a collision. The freighter was simply not operating in a safe way.
Click to expand...

Think of the freighter as a train on a track. You can't see the track, but if he strays off that track, there will be a grounding or he will miss a turn and hit a bridge or seawall. Like a train, the freighter can't just stop in a few feet, it might take a mile or two to stop. Unlike a train, if he does try to stop, he loses all control of the ship as far as steering and it's likely to go in any direction. He won't be able to stay on the "track" like a train would. He might not be able to recover from that maneuver and ground the ship or hit a bridge or seawall.

The freighter captain or pilot had no choice but to stay in the channel and prepare for the next turn, sailboat or not.

PS: as for "The rule is to cross perpendicular to the shipping channel.", even if it's not written, I hope part of that rule is to look both ways before crossing.
 
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A theory: Helmsman trainee, qualified helmsman at his shoulder. Seems everything returned to 'as expected', maybe the qualified had taken over?
Making that turn with the current running to Lake St Clair from Port Huron, watch the range board, current catches the the ship, over correct and ......

Gotta remember, all that water from Lake Huron flowing under the Blue Water Bridge funneled down into the St Clair River, LOTS of current. St Clair River in front of Dad's place was 200-300 yards max, as I recall.
 
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Andiamo2018 said:
And the sailboat does not appear to be crossing the channel - just sailing south but being pushed out by the current.

A cop chases a suspect and shots at him, hitting a bystander. The bystander was clearly in the wrong place at the wrong time and he got shot. But the cops' training included NOT shooting bystanders no matter what.

The freighter captain made a mistake - I think clearly indicated by his following turn to port AFTER scaring the sailboat.
Click to expand...
I would not exclude the possibility the first turn was less for navigation and more to confront and harass the sailboat. The maneuverability of the freighter was both surprising and impressive.
 
Andiamo2018 said:
I keep having a hard time orienting myself too :)

If the freighter did NOT make a mistake then why did he have to turn starboard again before actually beginning the turn to go under the bridges?

Boats are clearly allowed to cross the shipping channel in San Pablo Bay or boats would never be able to leave :) The rule is to cross perpendicular to the shipping channel.

Even if the sailboat was doing something blatantly wrong that doesn't mean you can just plow over it. Everyone has a responsibility to be safe and avoid a collision. The freighter was simply not operating in a safe way.
Click to expand...

This is video taken from the same camera. You can scroll back 12 hours. With the full range of the camera, you will see exactly where this event happened.

To again address what happened, you will notice that the sailboat was not making headway, but was being pushed to the east , into the potential path of the freighter. After the freighter turned to starboard, the sailboat turned to his port, into the new path of the freighter. The captain or pilot of the freighter prevented the collision. Had the sailboat done nothing, it probably wouldn't have been so close.

fyi, I happened to be watching this channel when the event actually happened.

 
Interestedly, if you choose your speed just right, you can throw up a big now wave and go no where.
 
It's a cool cam to watch. You can see several other freighters and they all seem to start on the same trajectory as the freighter that harassed the sailboat. The ones I watched all stayed over all the way through the turn and appear to be closer to the cam.

At best the freighter pilot thought the sailboat was being pushed out faster than it was and veered sharply creating a dangerous situations.
 
rwidman said:
"we were carrying over 3 million gallons of blue paint to Morocco when, wouldn't you know it, we collided with our competitors. They had about 4 million gallons of red-brown on board, and before we knew it, we were all marooned."
Click to expand...

:lol:Thanks. I needed that!
 
Just saw the video cam, based on my eyeballing the current and where it seems to split and go at the turn, I feel more than ever the ore carriers turn needed to be aggressive or it would have been too wide and sweeping.

The sailboat in my opinion had no clue of what might happen with the approach of the ore carrier and its lack of control.

Driving ships like that you better know where currents might push you long before you enter them.

If you don't, all you have are visual clues. They may not be correct, but if they are, you better start your maneuver based on that scant knowledge or bad things will happen.

That's why upper level USA USCG licenses (and probably most maritime licenses from other countries) aren't handed out like candy.

Would love to hear our own Swamp Commanders opinion.
 
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Greetings friends. I'm late to the party, and didn't read all of the comments above, but skimmed most of them. Forgive me if I repeat anything. I'm captain of a very similar ship, and work for the same company. I have pilotage for the river in question. I've been making that turn for more than 15 years.

That turn is one of the most technically demanding turns in the lower rivers. The channel is narrow, and the current is strong. It is generally not less than 2.5 miles per hour, and can exceed 4 depending on conditions. The area is so treacherous that all of the industrial docks that used to line the river there had to close due to all of the collisions. This section of the river is now one-way only for larger vessels, and is closely monitored by a Vessel Traffic Service.

The current is strongest in the outside of the turn, as it usually is in rivers. When piloting a ship upbound through this area, it's important to NEVER let your ship reach out too wide in this turn. The stronger current on the outside of the turn will catch your bow, and affect it disproportionately more than your stern, causing your rate of turn to decrease. It can be very difficult to get her turning again, and you don't have a lot of time to waste. If you don't get her turned in time, the current will set your ship hard to the west, and you will very likely hit the wall, causing catastrophic damage. There have been many large shipwrecks here due to this.

When you see the freighter turning to the right to avoid the sailboat, he is doing the right thing. He is working toward the part of the river that he can navigate most safely. The current is the slowest here, putting it at the least risk. Turning to the left would have been very dangerous.

These ships don't turn on a dime, and it takes time to make up your mind in a situation like this. Slowing down wouldn't have done anything but reduce the freighter's maneuverability. There very likely wasn't a call made on the radio, as there would have been very little time for it to have been useful.

I don't subscribe to the 'tonnage law' necessarily, and I WILL move out of the way when the rules say I should, as long as I can safely do so.

Contrary to what many people think, the average captain isn't an idiot or an *******, and genuinely doesn't want to make the news, damage anyone's property, or god forbid hurt anyone. We're just trying to move rocks from one place to another, so we can collect a paycheck and go home. We're not out here to 'scare sailboats.' When I see people making broad judgmental comments like 'the captain should be arrested' it makes my blood boil. I try really hard to ignore that kind of thing, but boy, it makes me want to say something that would disagree with my signature line.
 
Thank you for this explanation and helping the rest of us understand what happened. I'd been hoping you'd log into this discussion.
 
Wayfarer said:
Greetings friends. I'm late to the party, and didn't read all of the comments above, but skimmed most of them. Forgive me if I repeat anything. I'm captain of a very similar ship, and work for the same company. I have pilotage for the river in question. I've been making that turn for more than 15 years.

That turn is one of the most technically demanding turns in the lower rivers. The channel is narrow, and the current is strong. It is generally not less than 2.5 miles per hour, and can exceed 4 depending on conditions. The area is so treacherous that all of the industrial docks that used to line the river there had to close due to all of the collisions. This section of the river is now one-way only for larger vessels, and is closely monitored by a Vessel Traffic Service.

The current is strongest in the outside of the turn, as it usually is in rivers. When piloting a ship upbound through this area, it's important to NEVER let your ship reach out too wide in this turn. The stronger current on the outside of the turn will catch your bow, and affect it disproportionately more than your stern, causing your rate of turn to decrease. It can be very difficult to get her turning again, and you don't have a lot of time to waste. If you don't get her turned in time, the current will set your ship hard to the west, and you will very likely hit the wall, causing catastrophic damage. There have been many large shipwrecks here due to this.

When you see the freighter turning to the right to avoid the sailboat, he is doing the right thing. He is working toward the part of the river that he can navigate most safely. The current is the slowest here, putting it at the least risk. Turning to the left would have been very dangerous.

These ships don't turn on a dime, and it takes time to make up your mind in a situation like this. Slowing down wouldn't have done anything but reduce the freighter's maneuverability. There very likely wasn't a call made on the radio, as there would have been very little time for it to have been useful.

I don't subscribe to the 'tonnage law' necessarily, and I WILL move out of the way when the rules say I should, as long as I can safely do so.

Contrary to what many people think, the average captain isn't an idiot or an *******, and genuinely doesn't want to make the news, damage anyone's property, or god forbid hurt anyone. We're just trying to move rocks from one place to another, so we can collect a paycheck and go home. We're not out here to 'scare sailboats.' When I see people making broad judgmental comments like 'the captain should be arrested' it makes my blood boil. I try really hard to ignore that kind of thing, but boy, it makes me want to say something that would disagree with my signature line.
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Thank You!! Dave :thumb:
 
Very well said - thank you.

I am a captain myself though I have very little experience with anything over 50 feet. I didn't mean to generalize. I just saw the maneuver and saw it didn't look like what the other freighters did by a long shot.

And of course there are stinkers in every profession :/


Wayfarer said:
Greetings friends. I'm late to the party, and didn't read all of the comments above, but skimmed most of them. Forgive me if I repeat anything. I'm captain of a very similar ship, and work for the same company. I have pilotage for the river in question. I've been making that turn for more than 15 years.

That turn is one of the most technically demanding turns in the lower rivers. The channel is narrow, and the current is strong. It is generally not less than 2.5 miles per hour, and can exceed 4 depending on conditions. The area is so treacherous that all of the industrial docks that used to line the river there had to close due to all of the collisions. This section of the river is now one-way only for larger vessels, and is closely monitored by a Vessel Traffic Service.

The current is strongest in the outside of the turn, as it usually is in rivers. When piloting a ship upbound through this area, it's important to NEVER let your ship reach out too wide in this turn. The stronger current on the outside of the turn will catch your bow, and affect it disproportionately more than your stern, causing your rate of turn to decrease. It can be very difficult to get her turning again, and you don't have a lot of time to waste. If you don't get her turned in time, the current will set your ship hard to the west, and you will very likely hit the wall, causing catastrophic damage. There have been many large shipwrecks here due to this.

When you see the freighter turning to the right to avoid the sailboat, he is doing the right thing. He is working toward the part of the river that he can navigate most safely. The current is the slowest here, putting it at the least risk. Turning to the left would have been very dangerous.

These ships don't turn on a dime, and it takes time to make up your mind in a situation like this. Slowing down wouldn't have done anything but reduce the freighter's maneuverability. There very likely wasn't a call made on the radio, as there would have been very little time for it to have been useful.

I don't subscribe to the 'tonnage law' necessarily, and I WILL move out of the way when the rules say I should, as long as I can safely do so.

Contrary to what many people think, the average captain isn't an idiot or an *******, and genuinely doesn't want to make the news, damage anyone's property, or god forbid hurt anyone. We're just trying to move rocks from one place to another, so we can collect a paycheck and go home. We're not out here to 'scare sailboats.' When I see people making broad judgmental comments like 'the captain should be arrested' it makes my blood boil. I try really hard to ignore that kind of thing, but boy, it makes me want to say something that would disagree with my signature line.
Click to expand...
 
Well said, Dave. Agree 100%. Anyone that thinks that the ship’s captain is trying to scare the sailboat doesn’t understand what is going on. We came up the river about 6 weeks ago and the current was almost 4 mph at the time.
 
Andiamo2018 said:
Very well said - thank you.



I am a captain myself though I have very little experience with anything over 50 feet. I didn't mean to generalize. I just saw the maneuver and saw it didn't look like what the other freighters did by a long shot.



And of course there are stinkers in every profession :/
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There sure are! I’ve sailed with a few over the years. At the end of the day, we’re all just people, and even the best ones mess up sometimes.

Comodave said:
Well said, Dave. Agree 100%. Anyone that thinks that the ship’s captain is trying to scare the sailboat doesn’t understand what is going on. We came up the river about 6 weeks ago and the current was almost 4 mph at the time.
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That current is no joke. I was coming up through there on the old Olive L Moore a few years ago and just about came to a stop. She’s famously slow, and I was bucking a strong headwind and a stronger than usual current. We slowed down to less than 2 miles per hour at one point. I got passed by a sailboat and a woman jogging down the sidewalk. I called the captain and asked what I should do if she stopped, and I could practically hear him shrugging over the phone.

It took a long time to get under that bridge, lol.
 
Glad to see you back, Dave. I have missed your writing style.
 
In a current like that, and a long heavy vessel....waiting or turning early will change a ships path greatly like Dave said.

So yes, different ships may look completely different even though they may be trying to do exactly the same thing but judged things just a tiny bit differently. Us they may handle differently to begin with.
 
Might be in an earlier comment, but this is all covered in Rule 18 - the pecking order of right of way for vessels underway. According to the track and the video, the freighter took evasive action which he is obligated to do under Rule 7. But he had the right of way given the relatively narrow channel.

https://www.allatsea.net/new-reels-catch-fish-so-purchase-some/?amp

Peter
 
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I don't think most recreational boaters understand the limits and constrictions of large vessels ( I admit that I don't ) so its hard for a recreational boater to anticipate what a freighter is going to do. I think if I was piloting that sailboat I would be cursing the freighter for not trying to pass behind me. (I also hope that I would not have gotten into that situation in the first place, and that I was on the radio with the freighter 10 minutes ago)
 
Benthic2 said:
I don't think most recreational boaters understand the limits and constrictions of large vessels ( I admit that I don't ) so its hard for a recreational boater to anticipate what a freighter is going to do. I think if I was piloting that sailboat I would be cursing the freighter for not trying to pass behind me. (I also hope that I would not have gotten into that situation in the first place, and that I was on the radio with the freighter 10 minutes ago)
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I agree, many recreational boaters just don't know the full rules of the road. Sailors seem to know two things. First, starboard tack has precedence. Second, sail has precedence over power. On some level, we all understand the tonnage rule - might makes right.

Once you learn a mnemonic such as "Old and New Reels Catch Fish, ao Purchase Some, Okay," you are a long way towards understanding the Rules of the Road (you are always obligated to avoid a collision above and beyond any other rule).

ONRCFSPSO

Overtaken
Not under command
Restricted in ability to maneuver
Constrained by draft
Fishing vessel engaged in fishing
Sailing vessel under sail
Power vessel (incl sail with engine on)
Sea plane
Overtaking

To my eyes, ship did what it was obligated to do. Sailboat didn't.

Peter
 
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