An interesting development

[hollywood8118]

clearly, you do not understand that the typical diesel-electric locomotive does not store electricity.

Of course I understand they don't store energy. Go back and actually read my post where I raised the question to why they don't!

Bang your head against that.
HW

 

[sunchaser]

An interesting article, printed in a major marine pub, that refreshingly explores the challenges of electric propulsion. I have known the author, he is savvy and was perhaps the first journalist to pass the ABYC Electrical exam.

This is a complex subject with few one word answers, and it is evolving. Regardless of efficiency claims, I once again remain concerned for reliability and serviceability of these systems. Anyone considering such a purchase must ask those questions of the seller/builder and carefully and critically scrutinize the responses.

https://www.cruisingworld.com/story/sailboats/the-promises-and-pitfalls-of-an-all-electric-yacht/

Informative article, thanks. An issue raised but not detailed are what type of Li batteries were used in the 70' Norwegian boat that burned? To me the key point in the article is the importance of monitoring each Li battery cell as opposed to the module only.

 

[Mambo42]

Regardless of the efficiency of this set up it is good to look at the reasons why boat builders have taken this direction.
The EU is strict on reducing greenhouse gases and chances are that the taxes on fossil fuels will go sky high, making boating very expensive. I don't think this will happen for the boats that are at sea, but the boats on lakes and rivers and even coastal waters could be in for a nasty surprise.
As was with electrical cars the first ones were not the best either, so I see this Steeler as a first try out. There are talks about battery developments which are based on salt or solid state, which can charge faster and hold more Ah.

This development would be great for the European boating industry in the Med, where most of the boating is done in the coastal waters. During daytime you could be out for 10 hours, come into port and charge overnight etc etc.
I fully expect electrical boats to develop in the upcoming years and that would be a good development.

As for using a generator and not a direct diesel engine I can think of three positive side effects. First one is less noise on board, second one is less vibration and third one is a much smaller engine room, leaving more space for living quarters.

 

[JWellington]

Regardless of the efficiency of this set up it is good to look at the reasons why boat builders have taken this direction.
The EU is strict on reducing greenhouse gases and chances are that the taxes on fossil fuels will go sky high, making boating very expensive. I don't think this will happen for the boats that are at sea, but the boats on lakes and rivers and even coastal waters could be in for a nasty surprise.
As was with electrical cars the first ones were not the best either, so I see this Steeler as a first try out. There are talks about battery developments which are based on salt or solid state, which can charge faster and hold more Ah.

This development would be great for the European boating industry in the Med, where most of the boating is done in the coastal waters. During daytime you could be out for 10 hours, come into port and charge overnight etc etc.
I fully expect electrical boats to develop in the upcoming years and that would be a good development.

As for using a generator and not a direct diesel engine I can think of three positive side effects. First one is less noise on board, second one is less vibration and third one is a much smaller engine room, leaving more space for living quarters.[/QUOT


Yes, quite right, as I also mentioned. Not just fuel saving, but emissions, and theyre good on both counts.

 

[twistedtree]

Regardless of the efficiency of this set up it is good to look at the reasons why boat builders have taken this direction.
The EU is strict on reducing greenhouse gases and chances are that the taxes on fossil fuels will go sky high, making boating very expensive. I don't think this will happen for the boats that are at sea, but the boats on lakes and rivers and even coastal waters could be in for a nasty surprise.
As was with electrical cars the first ones were not the best either, so I see this Steeler as a first try out. There are talks about battery developments which are based on salt or solid state, which can charge faster and hold more Ah.

This development would be great for the European boating industry in the Med, where most of the boating is done in the coastal waters. During daytime you could be out for 10 hours, come into port and charge overnight etc etc.
I fully expect electrical boats to develop in the upcoming years and that would be a good development.

As for using a generator and not a direct diesel engine I can think of three positive side effects. First one is less noise on board, second one is less vibration and third one is a much smaller engine room, leaving more space for living quarters.

Yes on less noise for the times you are running on electric only. No doubt about it, and this alone is compelling for some people.


I maintain No on better fuel efficiency, unless someone can demonstrate the how and why. And dropping names of boat builders doesn't constitute a technical of scientific argument or demonstration of increased fuel efficiency.


And if fuel efficiency is worse, then I don't see how emissions can be anything other than worse too. If you are burning more fuel, you will be emitting more pollutants.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Yes on less noise for the times you are running on electric only. No doubt about it, and this alone is compelling for some people.


I maintain No on better fuel efficiency, unless someone can demonstrate the how and why. And dropping names of boat builders doesn't constitute a technical of scientific argument or demonstration of increased fuel efficiency.


And if fuel efficiency is worse, then I don't see how emissions can be anything other than worse too. If you are burning more fuel, you will be emitting more pollutants.

One possible reason it may be more effecient is an electric motor is more effecient than a mechanical transmission. Take the mechanical transmission out of the drive system and it <may> be more effecient.

 

[long-cours.62]

WSJe ... Apparently, cost of gas and diesel made EV power particularly attractive. ...
Peter

Hoops !!

Not exactly thru because for professional (as marina, hard stand, baker, hotel, factories etc)

Electricity price inc by ...825% !!!
Factories, baker, hotel, etc close because of the increase of the electricity price...

 

[mvweebles]

Hoops !!

Not exactly thru because for professional (as marina, hard stand, baker, hotel, factories etc)

Electricity price inc by ...825% !!!
Factories, baker, hotel, etc close because of the increase of the electricity price...

May be a translation thing, but I was trying to say that electricity prices have gone up dramatically which has made EVs less attractive, at least according to the Wall Street Journal

Peter.

 

[twistedtree]

One possible reason it may be more effecient is an electric motor is more effecient than a mechanical transmission. Take the mechanical transmission out of the drive system and it <may> be more effecient.

Numbers I've seen are about 3% loss for a gear transmission. Power control electronics for the motor will be low 90% range, and a really good electric motor about the same. So the electric drive is about 80ish % efficient all in. Good lithium Ion batteries are high 90s% efficient, and a good generator end will be 90% range as well. Then you need conversion electronics to charge the batteries from the generator output, and 90% would be a generous number for that. So you likely have lost 20% between the engine flywheel and the power entering the battery, say 5% in the battery, and another 20% between the battery and the prop shaft. Tally this all up and you can see it easily dropping as low as 60% efficiency, if not lower, between flywheel and prop shaft for serial hybrid vs let's say 95% for a direct gear drive. So I think if anything the numbers I sketched out earlier are very generous in favor of the hybrid approach. Reality is likely worse.

 

[JWellington]

One possible reason it may be more effecient is an electric motor is more effecient than a mechanical transmission. Take the mechanical transmission out of the drive system and it <may> be more effecient.

Yes, and I mentioned that too, above. In series , no transmissuin is needed, its direct electric from either the battery, or genset, or both...no transmission, saving several percent. Also, one doesnt have to buy or repair the transmission. All those european builders just didnt pull figures out their asses, there is tons of research and lit out there on this subject. Its Sedeish, Germans, Dutch, Finnish, Norwegians, even English going hybrid. As with radial tires, america will be a few decades lagging. Except Hinkley, they already are starting.

 

[rslifkin]

Numbers I've seen are about 3% loss for a gear transmission. Power control electronics for the motor will be low 90% range, and a really good electric motor about the same. So the electric drive is about 80ish % efficient all in. Good lithium Ion batteries are high 90s% efficient, and a good generator end will be 90% range as well. Then you need conversion electronics to charge the batteries from the generator output, and 90% would be a generous number for that. So you likely have lost 20% between the engine flywheel and the power entering the battery, say 5% in the battery, and another 20% between the battery and the prop shaft. Tally this all up and you can see it easily dropping as low as 60% efficiency, if not lower, between flywheel and prop shaft for serial hybrid vs let's say 95% for a direct gear drive. So I think if anything the numbers I sketched out earlier are very generous in favor of the hybrid approach. Reality is likely worse.

Yup, and that means it's almost certainly less efficient for long, constant speed runs. But in a usage pattern where you spend a lot of time at lower speeds (where you'd give up efficiency from a direct drive diesel by running it under a very light load versus a genset that doesn't run for a while, then runs at peak efficiency for a while to recharge) or you're at a dock regularly and can start most trips with full batteries (reducing the amount of power that needs to come from diesel), then you might gain something.

 

[JWellington]

Numbers I've seen are about 3% loss for a gear transmission. Power control electronics for the motor will be low 90% range, and a really good electric motor about the same. So the electric drive is about 80ish % efficient all in. Good lithium Ion batteries are high 90s% efficient, and a good generator end will be 90% range as well. Then you need conversion electronics to charge the batteries from the generator output, and 90% would be a generous number for that. So you likely have lost 20% between the engine flywheel and the power entering the battery, say 5% in the battery, and another 20% between the battery and the prop shaft. Tally this all up and you can see it easily dropping as low as 60% efficiency, if not lower, between flywheel and prop shaft for serial hybrid vs let's say 95% for a direct gear drive. So I think if anything the numbers I sketched out earlier are very generous in favor of the hybrid approach. Reality is likely worse.

Thanks for conceding that if serial, no transmission, thus some percentage savings. Re all other stats, those clever euoropeans in didnt pull whatever stats they have out their ass, they have done tons of research, and shown better less milage, less emmissions. And thats why theyre all doing it. None of the builders say its all a scam. Americans are just slow on the uptake. Although I see Hinckley have at least one such model already.

 

[backinblue]

May be a translation thing, but I was trying to say that electricity prices have gone up dramatically which has made EVs less attractive, at least according to the Wall Street Journal

Peter.

I agree Peter. Electricity prices here in the Northeast are expected to jump about 50% starting in 2023. When it comes to electric cars and such, the days of much cheaper electric "fuel" and govt subsidies and lack of fuel taxes will all fade away eventually IMO. I'm not against EVs and quite possibly my next vehicle will be one, just that I'm not buying into all the claims about low cost alternatives to petro fuels.

 

[JWellington]

Hoops !!

Not exactly thru because for professional (as marina, hard stand, baker, hotel, factories etc)

Electricity price inc by ...825% !!!
Factories, baker, hotel, etc close because of the increase of the electricity price...

I see the French Meta builder also has some hybrids already vailable.

 

[JWellington]

Scenario: in a busy, complicated harbour, canal , waterway. All the regular diesel boats are chugging away, clunking in an out of gear, tonkeep their speed slow, spouting fumes and noise. You, in your electric hybrid, using only electric mode, totally silent, no emmissions, not wasting fuel, rpm can be as low as 1. What a difference!

 

[Delfin]

I am in the 'you can't convert energy without loss' camp, however, perhaps more importantly, who will troubleshoot, diagnose and repair such a complex system, especially at sea? I pose this question to builders who use similarly complex and rare propulsion systems and frequently get the laughable, "we'll use a modem or satellite link to remotely evaluate and diagnose the system" response. In this industry we have a hard time getting conventional propulsion systems diagnosed and repaired, and those are, well, extremely common. Manufacturers who buy into these complex systems almost never invest enough money in support, dealers or training. From my perspective, if it is even slightly less reliable than a conventional diesel (and it's def more expensive), why would I go that route?

Ditto, Steve. Not sure why it takes so many posts to debate whether daisy chaining power sources results in more, or less energy lost from friction and heat loss, but I've seen dumber conversations I suppose. Just an opinion, but systems like the one being discussed are the same as a Tesla with a gas generator in the trunk. I guess you get kudos from the Woke crowd, but everyone else is just s

niggering.

 

[rslifkin]

Scenario: in a busy, complicated harbour, canal , waterway. All the regular diesel boats are chugging away, clunking in an out of gear, tonkeep their speed slow, spouting fumes and noise. You, in your electric hybrid, using only electric mode, totally silent, no emmissions, not wasting fuel, rpm can be as low as 1. What a difference!

That's kinda where I was going with my point. In some usage scenarios, the hybrid holds a definite advantage. But if you don't spend much time in those situations and spend enough time chugging along at your optimal cruising speed for hundreds of miles without stopping anywhere, then the inefficiencies Twistedtree pointed out become an issue.

 

[twistedtree]

Thanks for conceding that if serial, no transmission, thus some percentage savings.

But you left out the 30-40% loss incurred in order to save the 5% in the transmission.

Re all other stats, those clever euoropeans in didnt pull whatever stats they have out their ass, they have done tons of research, and shown better less milage, less emmissions. And thats why theyre all doing it. None of the builders say its all a scam. Americans are just slow on the uptake. Although I see Hinckley have at least one such model already.

I welcome any details on that. Which parts of what I've described have they figured out how to get around, and how have they done it? Name dropping is a hollow argument. Perhaps the Seeker rep will have the chops to actually make a case. No offense, but you don't have the underlying background or specific knowledge to argue it in any cogent form. That's OK. People aren't born knowing this stuff. We just need someone who is up to the task.



I think what builders have figured out is that people "want" all this stuff because they believe it's more efficient, so builders are happy to build and sell such boats. People want to believe, present company included, despite all evidence to the contrary, and no concrete evidence in favor. Humans have a long history of doing just that, and those "clever Europeans" are capitalizing on it. Power to them, and I hope you find one of their boats to buy.

 

[mvweebles]

Thanks for conceding that if serial, no transmission, thus some percentage savings. Re all other stats, those clever euoropeans in didnt pull whatever stats they have out their ass, they have done tons of research, and shown better less milage, less emmissions. And thats why theyre all doing it. None of the builders say its all a scam. Americans are just slow on the uptake. Although I see Hinckley have at least one such model already.

If you have some credible sources showing diesel-electric efficiency vs plain diesel, can you please provide a link? So far, outside of a general statement of "more efficient," which has been soundly shot-down, not much meaty/credible information from these "clever Europeans."

As an observation JWellington, you may consider yourself a visionary and no one sees what you see. There are many on this forum who are curious and excited about alternative energy sources. Where you are indeed an outlier is making outlandish statements that are unsupported. I realize I'm the last guy you'll listen to, but a bit more honey and less vinegar coupled with fact vs hyperbolic opinion would go a long way. There are many who seek to learn- if you want respect, suggest finding a way to deliver a message that doesn't involve self-aggrandizement.

Peter

 

[twistedtree]

Scenario: in a busy, complicated harbour, canal , waterway. All the regular diesel boats are chugging away, clunking in an out of gear, tonkeep their speed slow, spouting fumes and noise. You, in your electric hybrid, using only electric mode, totally silent, no emmissions, not wasting fuel, rpm can be as low as 1. What a difference!

That's a good example of it being a life-style choice, and one at the expense of efficiency. I can respect that.

 

[mvweebles]

From my perspective, if it is even slightly less reliable than a conventional diesel (and it's def more expensive), why would I go that route?

I wouldn't go that route either. But there are a lot of routes I wouldn't go - including the highly complex systems on many boats such as "Sky Hook" gizmo that holds a boat stationary against adverse forces, or electric sunroof. There are a zillion things that I don't want that other people do.

At the risk of being part of Delfin's "Woke Crowd," hydrocarbon propulsion is losing its attractiveness. You can debate the reasons but in the end, in 25 years, there will be more engines/motors propelled by something other than internal combustion than there are today - a lot more.

I'm not an early adopter for this technology, but I can see why some people would be. I'm sure someone will circumnavigate soon just as PAE did 20 years ago with their N40. And I'm sure there will be a hidden backstory about support and issues that were quietly resolved.

I still don't understand why this thread has stayed derailed into the weeds of diesel efficiency. That's really not the point here. There are dozens of flaws with this boat, dozens of limitations on how it can be used, and a strong argument it's a crazy investment. But in the end, it's a workable example of a concept that can be purchased today for a price. That's how technology evolution works.

Peter

 

[twistedtree]

Scenario: in a busy, complicated harbour, canal , waterway. All the regular diesel boats are chugging away, clunking in an out of gear, tonkeep their speed slow, spouting fumes and noise. You, in your electric hybrid, using only electric mode, totally silent, no emmissions, not wasting fuel, rpm can be as low as 1. What a difference!

BTW, I think it's been clear all along that for light use day boats that are plug-in electric, or plug-in hybrid can work well and be me efficient. But it still depends on a number of things aligning.


- The majority of power consumed needs to come from shore power and/or onboard solar, and the shore power needs to be more efficiently generated than with a diesel genset, or better yet be renewable.


- The daily range needs to be achievable on solar and stored shore power.


- The daily down-time needs to be at a shore power connection, and long enough to recharge. A 100kwh battery system would take about 30 hrs of recharge using a typical 16A European shore power connection, and 15hrs if you can find a 32A outlet.


If all that fits your usage expectations, then by all means buy one.

 

[Mambo42]

May be a translation thing, but I was trying to say that electricity prices have gone up dramatically which has made EVs less attractive, at least according to the Wall Street Journal

Peter.

Electricity prices have gone up and that was bad for certain businesses, but the electricity prices are still below that of fossil fuel, in other words you can charge you car for less than if you would buy fossil fuel.
Main reason in many countries why EV vehicles became less popular is the high cost of acquisition, they are not cheap and until last year governments would give subsidies if you would buy one. Those subsidies are more or less finished, they now simply made a law saying that fossil fuel cars (new ones) may not be sold anymore after 2030.

I still have two diesel cars, they hardly use any fuel and I will keep driving them. In Europe I usually only drive long distances and in many countries charging stations are difficult to find.

Price wise it depends a lot where you charge your electric vehicle and if you have a fixed or flexible contract for your electricity at home. If you have a fixed contract you probably still have low cost electricity. With a flexible one it will be higher, but it gets really expensive when you hook your car up to a commercial charging station. Then again, it is still cheaper than gasoline.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Numbers I've seen are about 3% loss for a gear transmission. Power control electronics for the motor will be low 90% range, and a really good electric motor about the same. So the electric drive is about 80ish % efficient all in. Good lithium Ion batteries are high 90s% efficient, and a good generator end will be 90% range as well. Then you need conversion electronics to charge the batteries from the generator output, and 90% would be a generous number for that. So you likely have lost 20% between the engine flywheel and the power entering the battery, say 5% in the battery, and another 20% between the battery and the prop shaft. Tally this all up and you can see it easily dropping as low as 60% efficiency, if not lower, between flywheel and prop shaft for serial hybrid vs let's say 95% for a direct gear drive. So I think if anything the numbers I sketched out earlier are very generous in favor of the hybrid approach. Reality is likely worse.

Thank you for the detailed response. You've clearly studied this.

 

[hollywood8118]

But just think about the conversations you will have with your guests over those drinks, aboard your ever-so-advanced hybrid boat that demonstrates your commitment to the planet and sustainable living. You are DEFINITELY getting laid tonight, and that's why you bought the boat...

I don't know about you but I certainly am not interested in those chicks with the hairy pits that are impressed with that stuff!




HOLLYWOOD

 

[garbler]

Hey Hollywood it’s an acquired taste like Lutefisk, Durian or pontoon boats.

 

[OldDan1943]

On shore facilities, to recharge the batteries at night, do not exist. Now the power producers have add to the facilities which means further investment. To cover the investment and keep the stock holders happy the price of the end product, electricity, has to go up. Now, let’s address another problem, line loss. The further away you build the plant, the more wire, more rights of way are needed to get from the plant to end users. There are so many places to lose the profit. At some point, the cost/price of a onboard generator begins to look more favorable. The generator doesn’t have to be big enough to support all onboard requirements. It has to be big enough to slow the battery drain so you arrive at the dock with enough reserve that can either be replaced by on-shore facilities or the on-board generator, during the over-night charging period.
There are so many ‘holes’ here, sort of makes a person want to rethink the entire project. LOL

 

[JWellington]

That's kinda where I was going with my point. In some usage scenarios, the hybrid holds a definite advantage. But if you don't spend much time in those situations and spend enough time chugging along at your optimal cruising speed for hundreds of miles without stopping anywhere, then the inefficiencies Twistedtree pointed out become an issue.

.
Most pleasure boats spend most of their time puddling around in harbours.
And those commercial boats dont, but still are all going hybrid.

 

[JWellington]

On shore facilities, to recharge the batteries at night, do not exist. Now the power producers have add to the facilities which means further investment. To cover the investment and keep the stock holders happy the price of the end product, electricity, has to go up. Now, let’s address another problem, line loss. The further away you build the plant, the more wire, more rights of way are needed to get from the plant to end users. There are so many places to lose the profit. At some point, the cost/price of a onboard generator begins to look more favorable. The generator doesn’t have to be big enough to support all onboard requirements. It has to be big enough to slow the battery drain so you arrive at the dock with enough reserve that can either be replaced by on-shore facilities or the on-board generator, during the over-night charging period.
There are so many ‘holes’ here, sort of makes a person want to rethink the entire project. LOL

Instead of "rethinking", they keep getting it better, and keep building more and more.

 

[JWellington]

Summary of thread: nobody knows if this company, Steeler, has done tests, sea trials , to verify if the boat preforms as they say it does. Or does anybody thing they've tested it out?