An interesting development

[KnotYet]

So why don't trains also have batteries and store the braking energy for later use?
hollywood

Your wish is my command:
https://www.up.com/media/releases/hybrid-electric-locomotives-nr-221006.htm
There have been other systems built and used as well.

 

[Art]

Your wish is my command:
https://www.up.com/media/releases/hybrid-electric-locomotives-nr-221006.htm
There have been other systems built and used as well.

Thanks! Here's an excerpt: [BTW - I LOVED my huge setup of Lionel trains when young!

"ZTR is proud of our long-standing relationship with Union Pacific and excited to partner with them on this hybrid-electric locomotive development,” said ZTR Control Systems President Derek Shipley. “This investment aligns well with our ongoing goal to leverage ZTR’s technical expertise to support railways in their decarbonization and efficiency improvement efforts. This initial hybrid-electric mother-slug application will be the basis of our design for future hybrid-electric, long-haul and fully electric solutions.”

Union Pacific began rolling out “mother-slug” sets with ZTR’s Nexsys control systems in 2017 and currently operates more than 65 in yards systemwide. Depending on the mode of operation, fuel savings and greenhouse gas emission reductions could total up to 80%.
Railroads already are one of the most fuel-efficient means of transportation. Moving freight by rail instead of truck reduces GHG emissions by up to 75%. On average, Union Pacific moves a ton of freight 463 miles on a single gallon of diesel fuel.

Union Pacific published its first comprehensive Climate Action Plan in December 2021, outlining its efforts to significantly reduce emissions within its operations. As part of that commitment, Union Pacific will reduce absolute Scope 1 and 2 GHG emissions 26% by 2030 and achieve net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050.

Earlier this year, Union Pacific announced a historic agreement with Wabtec Corporation for 600 locomotive modernizations, the largest investment in modernized locomotives in rail industry history valued at more than $1 billion, as well as the purchase of the world’s largest carrier-owned battery-electric locomotive fleet.

 

[Hippocampus]

Boats don’t break ( except mine all
to often). Getting back to original theme. Find it interesting that motor sailers haven’t gained new interest. With a variable pitch prop working as propulsion but also driving a hydro generator when the sails are up and working in conjunction with solar/wind boat could be self sufficient both at rest and underway b

 

[garbler]

Another big plus for diesel electric locomotives is in braking. The rows of fans you
see on top of the loco aren't cooling the engines, they're for cooling the massive
resistor banks consuming the energy back-feeding from the motors while braking.

The USN diesel electric tugs were DC also and all the galley equipment etc was DC too. The generators and drive motors were Westinghouse actually almost everything that was electrical to panels and switches was Westinghouse too.

Rick

 

[garbler]

Another big plus for diesel electric locomotives is in braking. The rows of fans you
see on top of the loco aren't cooling the engines, they're for cooling the massive
resistor banks consuming the energy back-feeding from the motors while braking.

I remember years ago working for the UPRR the hogsheads/engineers talking about ‘ Dynamic Braking ‘ is that what you’re talking about ? Plus lots of air into Westinghouse car braking units.

 

[garbler]

Performance isn’t the issue, electric motors develop torque almost instantly. Efficiency is the question. Tell me when the Navy ever cared about efficiency? They really don’t care about fuel consumption.

Very true. The USN is only concerned with performance whatever it cost. Need fuel you call up a tanker unless you’re nuclear. Performance and range are the basis for all USN calculations.

 

[KnotYet]

I remember years ago working for the UPRR the hogsheads/engineers talking about ‘ Dynamic Braking ‘ is that what you’re talking about ? Plus lots of air into Westinghouse car braking units.

Yes, of course traction is limited to the tiny contact surface area between all train
wheels and the track. So the air brakes still need to do their share of the braking.

 

[Barking Sands]

Barking Sands, there are just too many loss areas that don't ad up even if things are designed perfect.
You have generation losses similar to a transmission, then since you generate in AC, you run a charger to charge the batteries. The best chargers lose close to 10%. Then you have chemical conversion losses in the battery both charging and discharging. Then you have losses converting DC battery power to three phase AC power to run the motor and finally, you have motor loses. All those loses add up to far less efficiency than a conventional diesel/transmission setup and end of story, as the article is stated, the wording is wrong. Now do we trust the article author to have gotten it right? All reporters are correct on everything, just ask them. There is not doubt more to the story.
So where do they get this greater efficiency? Quite possibly they are pulling it from typical use patterns and overall diesel usage vs conventional diesel usage. If you run that boat 4 hours round trip to the local restaurant and back and then plug into shore power, you will have very much achieved greater efficiency (pocket book and diesel fuel) than a straight diesel setup. That would cover 90% of how people would use a boat like this. If this is what they really meant, then I concede.
That aside, there are some very interesting doors that would be opened with this type of setup and this type of setup is by all means within reach of many through a refit without the up front costs of a new boat.
One possibility is because of the narrow rpm range you might be able to convert something slow turning to burn light bunker oil if its available. You would also not be restricted to conventional propellers due to the torque curves on electric motors. You could select a propeller to match the characteristics of the electric motor including automatic variable pitch. You can change the characteristic of the torque and power curves by matching different motor controllers.
Wish I was younger, with the likes of HGR surplus sitting out there with cheap cool stuff, it would be fun to play around and experiment making aquatic toys.

I started to type a long reply. But I will just point out a few things. Symphony of the Seas, one of the largest and newest cruise ships in the world uses Diesel electric propulsion

For propulsion, Symphony of the Seas uses three 20,000 kilowatt azipod main engines, which are electric thrusters. These engines are mounted under the stern of the ship and they each drive 20 foot wide rotatable propellers. In addition to the three main engines, there are four bow thrusters used for docking, each with 5,500 kilowatts of power

From Azipod

Azipod® propulsion is a gearless steerable propulsion system where the electric drive motor is housed within a pod outside the ship hull. Azipod® units can rotate 360 degrees, increasing maneuverability and operating efficiency of vessel, while cutting fuel consumption by up to 20 percent compared to conventional shaftline systems

Granted the Azipods gain a percentage of that efficiency from the pod itself. But that is also part of the "proper design" that is attainable with electric drive/generator systems.

And I just quickly skimmed through several papers, studies and test data that does in fact show that properly designed diesel electric can match or in many cases exceed direct shaft driven. Adding batteries to make use of "dead time" of an operating engine not utilized for propulsion adds even more efficiency. And the heavier the electrical demand of the vessel (minus propulsion) the more design efficiencies can be had.

Another area that I have not seen added so far is the ability to electrically 'couple" the generator engine to the drive system when certain efficiency parameters are warranted. Similar to what the Chevy Volt did.

The Volt is essentially a gas/electric propulsion system. When run with storage batteries depleted it is still very very efficient. In the top of the class.

Engineers are just scratching the surface.

The propulsion system of the OP is by Hydrosta
https://hydrosta.nl/en

Seems like a pretty serious engineering company. I am not ready to poopoo their claims yet.

 

[markpierce]

So why don't trains also have batteries and store the braking energy for later use?
hollywood

Because it wouldn't be used for braking.

 

[AlaskaProf]

Because it wouldn't be used for braking.

I'm not sure I get your point. The point of regenerative braking is future propulsion. True for my Electric Smarts (all 3 of them) and my plug-in Prius.

 

[KnotYet]

I started to type a long reply. But I will just point out a few things. Symphony of the Seas, one of the largest and newest cruise ships in the world uses Diesel electric propulsion

From Azipod

Granted the Azipods gain a percentage of that efficiency from the pod itself. But that is also part of the "proper design" that is attainable with electric drive/generator systems.

And I just quickly skimmed through several papers, studies and test data that does in fact show that properly designed diesel electric can match or in many cases exceed direct shaft driven. Adding batteries to make use of "dead time" of an operating engine not utilized for propulsion adds even more efficiency. And the heavier the electrical demand of the vessel (minus propulsion) the more design efficiencies can be had.

Another area that I have not seen added so far is the ability to electrically 'couple" the generator engine to the drive system when certain efficiency parameters are warranted. Similar to what the Chevy Volt did.

The Volt is essentially a gas/electric propulsion system. When run with storage batteries depleted it is still very very efficient. In the top of the class.

Engineers are just scratching the surface.

The propulsion system of the OP is by Hydrosta
https://hydrosta.nl/en

Seems like a pretty serious engineering company. I am not ready to poopoo their claims yet.

No one is poopoo-ing it but you seem to be misunderstanding some statements.
The use of generators powering electric drive motors on large ships is not new.
In fact, good efficiency is achieved by using multiple generators which can
be ganged together for full power and then shut down when less is needed.
I have been on board one such vessel that had no less than five huge V-10
diesel generators to power 2 massive electric motors. It was built 70 years ago.

This is not the case with the family sized trawlers we have been discussing, though.
They will be limited to one or maybe two generators and wouldn't be likely to save
the owner much fuel. The aesthetic advantages of electric drive are a different story.

 

[markpierce]

I'm not sure I get your point. The point of regenerative braking is future propulsion. True for my Electric Smarts (all 3 of them) and my plug-in Prius.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_braking

Unless the railroad is electric powered (third-rail or overhead), there is no where to go for excess energy.

 

[hollywood8118]

Because it wouldn't be used for braking.

you clearly misunderstood the point of storing energy from regenerative braking to use for future propulsive use, just like all electric and hybrid cars do.
Hollywood

 

[PierreR]

I started to type a long reply. But I will just point out a few things. Symphony of the Seas, one of the largest and newest cruise ships in the world uses Diesel electric propulsion



From Azipod



Granted the Azipods gain a percentage of that efficiency from the pod itself. But that is also part of the "proper design" that is attainable with electric drive/generator systems.

And I just quickly skimmed through several papers, studies and test data that does in fact show that properly designed diesel electric can match or in many cases exceed direct shaft driven. Adding batteries to make use of "dead time" of an operating engine not utilized for propulsion adds even more efficiency. And the heavier the electrical demand of the vessel (minus propulsion) the more design efficiencies can be had.

Another area that I have not seen added so far is the ability to electrically 'couple" the generator engine to the drive system when certain efficiency parameters are warranted. Similar to what the Chevy Volt did.

The Volt is essentially a gas/electric propulsion system. When run with storage batteries depleted it is still very very efficient. In the top of the class.

Engineers are just scratching the surface.

The propulsion system of the OP is by Hydrosta
https://hydrosta.nl/en

Seems like a pretty serious engineering company. I am not ready to poopoo their claims yet.

The bottom line is economy. With Azipods, you don't need tugs to dock and maneuver in tight quarters. There is also efficiency in dividing propulsion from different points of the hull.
Diesel is a loose term. An cruise ship uses as much power in electricity to run everything as it does to propel it There are a couple manufacturers that make huge power plants that burn #7 bunker oil. At room temperature, you can practically shovel it and it's heavier than water.
There is economy is scale and purpose that we don't enjoy in trawlers. Plugging into the grid is how this boat beats a conventional setup. This boat is NOT meant to cross oceans or you would not see that much plate glass. What I am seeing on this boat is light materials and heft from batteries. She probably is meant to cruise between 5-8 knots.
Their ain't no free lunch.

 

[rslifkin]

For the train scenario, I know batteries for storing some of the energy from dynamic braking have been looked at. But I think the space and weight consumed by the batteries relative to the fuel it would save has made them generally not worthwhile up to this point.

 

[KnotYet]

For the train scenario, I know batteries for storing some of the energy from dynamic braking have been looked at. But I think the space and weight consumed by the batteries relative to the fuel it would save has made them generally not worthwhile up to this point.

They've been built and in various use for almost 20 years, not unlike hybrid autos.
Hybrid locomotives will effectively replace traditional diesel locomotives in the future
https://www.fastcompany.com/9060760...s-18000-batteries-to-cut-its-carbon-footprint
Hybrid and 100% electric locomotive | CFD

 

[rslifkin]

They've been built and in various use for almost 20 years, not unlike hybrid autos.
https://www.railway-technology.com/sponsored/hybrid-locomotives-replace-diesel-locomotives/
https://www.fastcompany.com/9060760...s-18000-batteries-to-cut-its-carbon-footprint
https://www.cfd.group/rolling-stock/hybrid-locomotive

They've been built and have seen some use, but battery hybrid locomotives haven't been widely adopted anywhere I know of. Certainly not for mainline freight in the US, at least.

 

[KnotYet]

They've been built and have seen some use, but battery hybrid locomotives haven't been widely adopted anywhere I know of. Certainly not for mainline freight in the US, at least.

Exactly right.
Mostly switchyard and shorter runs. Much like hybrid cars, they shine for short urban
trips and offer less advantage for long constant speed work.

 

[Delfin]

Yes, I think that is precisely what he's saying. Or if he's not saying it, I will.


You can't take an engine and a propeller (conventional drive) and insert a generator, batteries, and a motor in between the two and not lose power.


This is science for people who skipped or failed high school physics

Given that diesel generators run at 40% energy efficiency when running at optimum load of 80%, and an electric motor loses about 25% of that, and a diesel engine without feel good green technology runs at better than 50% energy efficiency, I'm wondering who this company thinks they will market this boat to. Perhaps the aforementioned physics flunkers....


Or maybe they really are on their way to a suspension of the laws of thermodynamics.

 

[mvweebles]

Well, 10-seconds of Google search for Diesel-Electric efficiency surfaced this research paper comparing two cruise ships. (HERE). Being a physic's flunker, I do not have the spare brain cells so will leave to the physics' aces to pick apart.

From the abstract: "This shows that the annual cost of the diesel-electric option is less than that of the conventional by 22%"

Peter

 

[OldDan1943]

A minimum of 5 more years

 

[klee wyck]

Well, 10-seconds of Google search for Diesel-Electric efficiency surfaced this research paper comparing two cruise ships. (HERE). Being a physic's flunker, I do not have the spare brain cells so will leave to the physics' aces to pick apart.

From the abstract: "This shows that the annual cost of the diesel-electric option is less than that of the conventional by 22%"

Peter

Classic junk science that all too often is swallowed up by the general public these days.
For example, to make the claims on emissions being lower they compared a modeled (not actual) modern diesel generator engine burning ULSHFO (0.1% sulfur) against an actual dinosaur engine burning conventional MDO (1% sulfur). This is a complete and total breach of ethical experimental design on several accounts.
Serious people will discard this paper as the junk that it is in 10 seconds.

 

[KnotYet]

Well, 10-seconds of Google search for Diesel-Electric efficiency surfaced this research paper comparing two cruise ships. (HERE). Being a physic's flunker, I do not have the spare brain cells so will leave to the physics' aces to pick apart.

From the abstract: "This shows that the annual cost of the diesel-electric option is less than that of the conventional by 22%"

Peter

The larger the vessel, the greater the potential advantage diesel electric can offer.
The smaller the vessel, the less potential savings. A cruise ship, being very large
and having constant high energy demand sounds like the perfect use of the tech.
A 60-footer like the thread starter vessel, not so much. I still like the idea, though.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,


If it's green and smells, that's chemistry
If it's green and moves, that's biology.
If it's green and doesn't work, that's physics.


One of my chem profs told me that 50 years ago. Holds true today IMO.

 

[Delfin]

Classic junk science that all too often is swallowed up by the general public these days.
For example, to make the claims on emissions being lower they compared a modeled (not actual) modern diesel generator engine burning ULSHFO (0.1% sulfur) against an actual dinosaur engine burning conventional MDO (1% sulfur). This is a complete and total breach of ethical experimental design on several accounts.
Serious people will discard this paper as the junk that it is in 10 seconds.

You can usually tell if a research paper is part of an agenda promotion campaign by the study design.



In any case, the paper appears to be about cost efficiency, so I'm not sure why it was posted. Cost isn't quite the same as the topic at hand, and that is whether or not the law of conservation of energy has been suspended in this design. My guess is probably not.

 

[Delfin]

Well, 10-seconds of Google search for Diesel-Electric efficiency surfaced this research paper comparing two cruise ships. (HERE). Being a physic's flunker, I do not have the spare brain cells so will leave to the physics' aces to pick apart.

From the abstract: "This shows that the annual cost of the diesel-electric option is less than that of the conventional by 22%"

Peter

Yes, I believe that took 10 seconds. Since you're good at Google, check the terms "energy efficiency of diesel generators", "energy efficiency of electric motors", and "energy efficiency of diesel motors". That will explain the perspective of those who didn't flunk physics.

 

[markpierce]

you clearly misunderstood the point of storing energy from regenerative braking to use for future propulsive use, just like all electric and hybrid cars do.
Hollywood

clearly, you do not understand that the typical diesel-electric locomotive does not store electricity.

 

[AlaskaProf]

clearly, you do not understand that the typical diesel-electric locomotive does not store electricity.

I think this thread was about things which might be achieved. Doesn't take a lot of imagination to picture an energy storage technology being used in the railway context. We might call such a thing...I don't know...a tender?

Dream bigger.

 

[Art]

AP - In the "tender"... compare the energy stored in that amount of coal as compared the energy that can be stored by the same size "tender" full of batteries.

 

[AlaskaProf]

AP - In the "tender"... compare the energy stored in that amount of coal as compared the energy that can be stored by the same size "tender" full of batteries.

I'm not smart enough to do that calculation, but I don't need to. We are not talking about primary propulsion; we are talking about a place to stash the otherwise wasted braking energy gained downhill for supplemental use going uphill. The comparison is not with my electric car, but with the other one, the hybrid.

Further, that tender isn't carrying coal; it's fuel oil and water. Count the wheels; it is one heavy s.o.b. Might carry a lot of lithium or whatever we create tomorrow.

Dream bigger.