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Old 09-19-2017, 05:49 PM   #81
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Benthic....still pnly partially correct....and Seevee caught it too.

Boating for some is barely one step up from being homeless.

While I too think liability should be required to operate any machinery, the discussion is lost on some who always post things like they are all or nothing according to their limited world view.
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Old 09-19-2017, 05:49 PM   #82
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For those that argue that liability insurance should not be mandatory would you agree that if a person has no liability insurance he cannot wipe out the liability by bankruptcy?
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Old 09-19-2017, 06:08 PM   #83
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Those who preach no mandatory liability insurance have yet to experience a 20k + damage to thier boat by an idiot with no insurance. Also the impact that idiot's actions has on your future plans, not to mention the money impact.
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Old 09-19-2017, 06:31 PM   #84
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I am the guy that never purchases extended warranty.


I have always insured every boat that I have owned and will continue into the future.


Believe that liability insurance should be required and presented at time of registration of the boat.


All that said, our last boat stayed in South Florida year around. I accepted the 30% deductible from damage caused by a named storm if the boat was south of cape hatteras.


I have insurance for the liability - since damage under maritime law is proportional - not necessarily assigned blame. Responsibility may be split. I have insurance for the possible EPA contamination. A few hundred gallons of diesel let loose is not a good thing. I believe the cap on fine is $850K. To me - that is substantial.


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Old 09-19-2017, 06:39 PM   #85
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Again, anyone ever been fined for oil/fuel spill?

A few hundred gallons of diesel is almost impossible to clean up unless you boom it off immediately....or are in a very confined space.
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Old 09-19-2017, 07:27 PM   #86
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On the Columbia River if a 50 gallon spill occurs, someone WILL report it the the USCG and Washington DNR and Washington EPA come at you from the forest and are relentless.

We had a 1929 tug sink right in front of pur dock and put about 300 gallons of fuel in the water. USCG spokesman on the scene state that it wasn't bad and that it would desipate. You could hear DNR and the EPA folks screaming at the USCG folks. They wpuld be seeking the maximum fines against the owner.
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Old 09-19-2017, 08:30 PM   #87
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Liability, yes, please.

Property, if you can't afford the loss, yes.

If you can, it just depends on how you value the time without it. Insurance overhead is around 45-50 cents on the dollar, a horrible investment in general, nothing you would ever put money into for your 401k, but if you can't live without a boat and it takes you a couple of years to replace a loss, then maybe.
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Old 09-19-2017, 11:21 PM   #88
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Again, anyone ever been fined for oil/fuel spill?

A few hundred gallons of diesel is almost impossible to clean up unless you boom it off immediately....or are in a very confined space.

Can I give you a specific example of a fine for someone I know? No

Do I want to expose myself to the liability for a fraction of boat coast? No
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:00 AM   #89
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If everyone had insurance the cost would go down because no one would have damage from boaters without insurance. Also, as the number of policy holders goes up, the data pool that insurers use gets deeper, allowing them to get more specific with rates. Think about your auto insurance. That factors in your education, credit rating, marital status......with more data, pricing can get more sophisticated and higher risk boaters identified and charged accordingly, and lower risk boaters given lower pricing.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:03 AM   #90
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...... Insurance overhead is around 45-50 cents on the dollar, a horrible investment in general, ......
what do you mean by this ? Life insurance is sometimes sold as an investment...but not property/liability insurance....so I'm not following you here...
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Old 09-20-2017, 03:23 AM   #91
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Funny, I never had to purchase uninsured motorist protection until after California voters approved mandatory minimum auto liability insurance. It was always just covered before as part of my previous full coverage policy's.

Should the government... NO!!!
It has always bothered me. Liability insurance is required for all motorists, so why do we need to have uninsured-motorist coverage? Well, because many motorists violate the law. There is not sufficient incentive for persons to obtain needed insurance. Probably because many are here illegally. Unfortunately, California and many other jurisdictions won't forcibly export criminal non-citizens.
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Old 09-20-2017, 05:48 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Alaskan Sea-Duction View Post
On the Columbia River if a 50 gallon spill occurs, someone WILL report it the the USCG and Washington DNR and Washington EPA come at you from the forest and are relentless.

We had a 1929 tug sink right in front of pur dock and put about 300 gallons of fuel in the water. USCG spokesman on the scene state that it wasn't bad and that it would desipate. You could hear DNR and the EPA folks screaming at the USCG folks. They wpuld be seeking the maximum fines against the owner.
Maybe because the DNR and EPA guys had little experience.

What they say onvTV and what happens is rarely the same.

Look, I am not an advocate of pollution. I just know from quite a bit of experience that cleanups from sunken recreational boats rarely happen due to the little fuel and oil that make it into the water and even if it does, it us no where near the $800,000 that is often a coverage number used (if it was common, I bet that number would be lower or your premium for that coverage would be pretty high).

The debate is about the typical insurance policy and what is truly needed.

If there was one part of insurance that in my experience gets rarely used, it would be this one.

I will try and find out if that is a regional issue or widespread.
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Old 09-20-2017, 08:22 AM   #93
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My understanding the reason a policy covers up to 800K is that is the limit to which a boater could be fined.


Could be wrong about that.
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:37 AM   #94
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Again, anyone ever been fined for oil/fuel spill?
.
Yes - Exxon Valdez. It's hard to figure out what the final costs were but it was in the billions of dollars.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This happened to a friend of mine:

His fuel oil company came to his house to fill his oil tank when he was at work. Somehow, they screwed up and pumped a couple hundred gallons of fuel oil onto the ground.

By the time the EPA got done with him (yes, they went after him as the owner of the property), the cost was over a million dollars and they tore his house down.

Fortunately, in the end, the oil company's insurance paid the cost and all he had to do was find a new place for him and his family to live.

The EPA can be relentless.
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:43 AM   #95
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what do you mean by this ? Life insurance is sometimes sold as an investment...but not property/liability insurance....so I'm not following you here...
All insurance is an investment - it behaves like a reverse annuity with some probability of losing all your money (i.e. no claims paid)

The average person would be financially better off, over long periods of time, if they could live out replacing the covered item, by simply putting their premium dollars into low risk bonds.

Why? Because the administration cost of a Bond is WAY WAY less than an army of accountants, claims adjusters, underwriters, IT people, marketing, and so forth.
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:57 AM   #96
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My boat isnt the Exxon Valdez and neither is anyone elses here.....typical not understanding basic concepts of what this forum really is.

If someone let their house get torn down for a couple hundred gallons of heating oil, someone got screwed. I have worked for a company that cleaned up residential oil tanks and spills. Huge difference in a couple hundred gallons and thousands, between light and heavy oils and on land or the water.

I guess its just experience why it is so unckear to some.
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Old 09-20-2017, 02:36 PM   #97
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My understanding the reason a policy covers up to 800K is that is the limit to which a boater could be fined.


Could be wrong about that.
That's what my agent told me, but it was some obscure number like $852,649.36
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Old 09-20-2017, 02:40 PM   #98
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All insurance is an investment - it behaves like a reverse annuity with some probability of losing all your money (i.e. no claims paid)

The average person would be financially better off, over long periods of time, if they could live out replacing the covered item, by simply putting their premium dollars into low risk bonds.

Why? Because the administration cost of a Bond is WAY WAY less than an army of accountants, claims adjusters, underwriters, IT people, marketing, and so forth.
Kev_rm,

Insurance is NOT and investment, it's an expense, just like fuel. Some get a good feeling about it, but you don't get a return on your dollar. And, it you averaged in all of the premiums and claims, the policy holder would loose. It's just a fact of life, you get no benefit that pays for the insurance companies overhead and profit.

Now, I believe there are some forms of life insurance that is an investment, but last time I looked at it I could do better with money under a mattress.
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Old 09-20-2017, 02:42 PM   #99
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Yes - Exxon Valdez. It's hard to figure out what the final costs were but it was in the billions of dollars.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This happened to a friend of mine:

His fuel oil company came to his house to fill his oil tank when he was at work. Somehow, they screwed up and pumped a couple hundred gallons of fuel oil onto the ground.

By the time the EPA got done with him (yes, they went after him as the owner of the property), the cost was over a million dollars and they tore his house down.

Fortunately, in the end, the oil company's insurance paid the cost and all he had to do was find a new place for him and his family to live.

The EPA can be relentless.
At times, govt can be out of control, and the EPA is one good example.
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Old 09-20-2017, 02:43 PM   #100
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If everyone had insurance the cost would go down because no one would have damage from boaters without insurance. Also, as the number of policy holders goes up, the data pool that insurers use gets deeper, allowing them to get more specific with rates. Think about your auto insurance. That factors in your education, credit rating, marital status......with more data, pricing can get more sophisticated and higher risk boaters identified and charged accordingly, and lower risk boaters given lower pricing.
Benthic2,

It doesn't work that way... look at Obama care.
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