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Old 09-18-2017, 01:36 PM   #21
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Smitty,

I could argue that a slip and fall is NOT the boat owners fault. It doesn't meet the negligence test. Sometimes we need to take responsibility for our own actions. I feel sorry for the daughter, but slipping on a boat is not an unusual hazard, and if she were experience on boats, she'd know that.
Of course you can argue anything you want but it happened on a raft up we were on at the time and they did lose the case and they had to pay up.

Last year on July 5th I was "T" boned when driving my pickup along a street at 30 mph. Was unusual in that I was across from a commercial building supply store so they not only called the cops but also supplied video - I was dazed - truck had $20K damage. Other driver had no insurance but mine provided the coverage and pursued the driver after I was paid out. Learned about a month ago that they put a lien against his home and also his paycheck for all damages plus the fines and costs of in-insurance.

Almost 10 years back now my wife was a witness to a boater who threw up a huge wake in an anchorage and that wake rocked two boats near ours where a couple of folks fell and got injured. The boats sustained some decent damage as well - certainly not the owners of the anchored boats fault. Real long story short they found the offending boat which did not have insurance and they are paying as well - subrogated by the boats policy where the folks were injured.

Had another one where a friend was entering the harbor with just 42' Sea Ray just coming off of plane. Out of the side around a breakwater comes a center console about 25' with a "T" top at maybe 30 knots and plows into his bow right behind the fwd most glass. Two 'kids' get ejected but have very small injuries - amazing. But the Sea Ray is pierced in a big way like maybe a 3' by 5' hole but most all above the waterline. Took over a year to repair that mess and their was no way that owner was going to avoid that loss either.

You asked about losses that we personally witnessed and were around so there is a few.

Insure or not - your choice.
FWIW - insurance on out 50" diesel boat was really cheap as we had a higher deductible - it was not for a scrape at the dock it was for high liability events.
Perhaps check and see hat the rates do at 2% and 3% deductibles.
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Old 09-18-2017, 01:37 PM   #22
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Hull insurance protects the boat owner, but liability insurance protects everyone else. We need protection from boaters who if they damage someone elses property just say "tough bananas" and think they can walk away.

That is why liability auto insurance is mandatory, and it should be for boats too.
Agreed 100% and I have said it before. Now if someone can post a million dollar bond, perhaps he/she should be allowed to boat without insurance.
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Old 09-18-2017, 02:22 PM   #23
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Anyone here actually have their boat sink and you or your insurance paid for a fuel/oil cleanup past basic salvage service?

Before you answer, I will be asking who did it, the costs and if you have any documentation where the nuts and bolts can be researched.

As I have posted before, I am not sure I have ever seen a salvage or even serious fuel spill by a recreational boat under 65 feet be "cleaned up" and charged.

Possible yes, but so rare I cant remember even one.
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Old 09-18-2017, 02:25 PM   #24
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Agreed 100% and I have said it before. Now if someone can post a million dollar bond, perhaps he/she should be allowed to boat without insurance.
WesK,

Good point, but how about 10 million, or 100 million. There will be claims for that, too. You might as well have coverage for it all. You're not going naked above 10 million are you?
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Old 09-18-2017, 02:25 PM   #25
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I agree with you, Seevee. We usually lose money on the insurance deal and insurance companies generally make money.

There isn't much choice in avoiding liability insurance if you stay in a marina, but if my hull insurance cost increased substantially I'd certainly reconsider it.
Right now I only pay about $US 550/year for complete coverage so It seems like a fairly good deal.

I don't bother with car insurance other than 3rd party liability, and I've come out ahead over the years.
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Old 09-18-2017, 02:38 PM   #26
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Yes, from a social policy POV, at those sorts of rates, I would go along with even "poor" people being made to pay for liability.

Up to say 5% per year of the actual market value of the boat, with a $500 floor I suppose.
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Old 09-18-2017, 03:09 PM   #27
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AusCan,

$500 is a bargain! You either good at shopping or a great risk.... or both.

john61ct,
Not sure what a $500 floor is, but 5% would be brutally high! Heck you'd pay for a new boat in about 13 years... plus the deductible. Wouldn't make much sense.
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Old 09-18-2017, 03:12 PM   #28
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I have hull coverage on my boat, not because Iam so worried that I'll make a mistake, but because I'm worried that someone else will make a mistake and not be able to pay, or not really be "at fault" or "negligent".

Lets say for example that the boat next to you catches fire. Thats a great example. Your boat, sitting 8 feet away is also a total loss.

You would think that you could just make the other boats owner or through proxy his insurance company pay for your loss. Thats a pretty good and often mistaken assumption.

You have to prove that the owner was negligent in order to be able to recover. But you say that "his boat burned my boat", well sorry but that does not prove negligence on his part.

You have to prove that he, the owner did something "negligent".

So you say, geez I think he had a electric heater on board, and you think that proves negligence.

But wait... That proves nothing. If the heater caused his boats wiring to melt and catch fire that still does not prove negligence.

You see proving negligence is not so easy with a boat, sitting all alone at the dock.

Yes it's easier if he was docking and rammed your boat, but allot of losses do not involve a boat under way.

Thats why I will always carry hull insurance. My insurance, hull and liability is about 1% of the agreed value per year, and although I wish it were cheaper, I am happy to pay it.
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Old 09-18-2017, 03:27 PM   #29
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Hull insurance - I don't care. It's up to you because you are the only one impacted by a loss of/to your boat. If you want to absorb the risk of a loss, that's your business.

Liability insurance - I think it should be mandatory because it's all about you making good on the impact and damage you inflict on others. I'm sure plenty of people fully intend to self insure and make good on any damage they might cause, but I doubt many are actually capable and willing when push comes to shove. Yes, you can be careful, but crap still happens.

Here's an example. A guy in town here owned an old fishing trawler. Last fall it dragged anchor, grounded just down the shore from my house, and started to break up. They guy had no money, no insurance, and no assets. So while he looked on, the city paid $30k for an excavator and dump trucks to tear the thing apart and haul it away. So I (and others) paid the bill for this ass hole who couldn't/wouldn't take responsibility for his own asset and actions. Now $30k for a boat salvage and disposal is actually pretty cheap. Just think if his boat had caught fire and burned a Marina and a few hundred boats? Or leaked fuel all over the place. Or if the boat had broken up and become lawn art for me and all my neighbors.
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Old 09-18-2017, 03:29 PM   #30
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It is a mistake to think that you can be careful enough boating to never expose yourself to a liability claim.

It is a mistake to think that your exposure to a liability claim depends on the size or cost of your boat.

And it is a mistake to think that if nobody on this forum ever had a particular thing happen to them that it has never happened to anyone or will never happen to anyone.
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Old 09-18-2017, 03:29 PM   #31
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It is a mistake to think that you can be careful enough boating to never expose yourself to a liability claim.

It is a mistake to think that your exposure to a liability claim depends on the size or cost of your boat.

And it is a mistake to think that if nobody on this forum ever had a particular thing happen to them that it has never happened to anyone or will never happen to anyone.
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Old 09-18-2017, 03:52 PM   #32
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But insurance isnt about absolutes, its about probabilities.....on both sides of the policy.

You do have some contols like the insurance company, but both sides do have unknowns to gamble on.

For those with less expensive boats, the hull insurance premiums seem out of proportion to me.... liability is relatively cheap even for liveaboards.

So if some want to roll the dice on a less expensive boat...run the numbers, the insurance company has and is betting you wont have a claim...
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Old 09-18-2017, 04:16 PM   #33
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WesK,

Good point, but how about 10 million, or 100 million. There will be claims for that, too. You might as well have coverage for it all. You're not going naked above 10 million are you?
First of all, with liability insurance, the company will defend you, you don't have to pay for your own attorney. And remember, anyone can sue you at any time.

Second, your level of coverage is a judgement call and depends in part on your own financial worth and your perceived risk. The higher your coverage, the lower the cost per dollar. Two million does not cost twice what one million costs and ten million doesn't cost five times what two million costs.
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Old 09-18-2017, 04:53 PM   #34
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Not sure what a $500 floor is, but 5% would be brutally high! Heck you'd pay for a new boat in about 13 years... plus the deductible. Wouldn't make much sense.
Floor means minimum, most boats are worth far less than $10,000.

OK, maybe a sliding scale, 5% for between $10-50,000, 4% for 50- half mill, 3% for 500k-5mill, 2% for 5mill and up.

Build the pool so more environmental damage actually gets addressed.

And remember based on assessed market value not some random number.
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Old 09-18-2017, 04:58 PM   #35
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My insurance, hull and liability is about 1% of the agreed value per year, and although I wish it were cheaper, I am happy to pay it.
Wow, didn't realize so cheap.

So revise my proposed numbers way down, but y'all get the general idea.

At that rate $500 a year covers a $50,000 boat, maybe make it $100 for the average tiny ones, or only start at 20 footers, I guess kayaks don't doo much damage 8-)
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Old 09-18-2017, 05:04 PM   #36
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My liveaboard policy for a $50,000 agreed upon value is $1850.

Liveaboard jumped the liability and personal property over $300.

So you see, older, more inexpensive boats are an insurance drain for what they cover.

Had I not just sent in a bunch of updated info, they wrre dropping any coverage bases on drivetrain issues.
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Old 09-18-2017, 05:46 PM   #37
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One way to make the insurance premium more palatable for some is to carry a higher than average deductible. On our Selene (hull value $500K) we carried a $10K deductible. Premium cost for New England was about $2,250 with highly reputable insurance company and broker. When we cruised full year, if memory serves right, the premium bumped to about $3K with usual requirement to be north of Florida for the hurricane season (for obvious reasons!). The premiums quoted were for still good in 2014 when we sold the boat. I think it is high risk to not carry some hull insurance, but absolutely crazy and irresponsible to not have liability coverage.
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Old 09-18-2017, 06:22 PM   #38
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its important to note that you are paying for more than the cost to repair or replace your boat. You are paying for the reduced uncertainty. You know that when your boat is damaged, you will be responsible up to the cost of your deductable. It is similar to buying options in the stock market. They have a value to the owner, even if they are not excercised. Even if you didn't file a claim last year, you got a financial benefit from your insurance by having a cap on what your repair/replacement cost could have been.

As for figuring out how many years of premiums it takes to replace your boat and then self insuring if you think you can go that long without totalling your boat: That's a fallacy, because you never know when your boat will be damaged. If you decide to self insure because you think your 5% payment is too high, sure, just save your premium and in 20 years you can replace your boat. BUT...what if your boat is damaged next year ? Then you have to keep saving for 19 more years before you can replace your boat.

Insurance companies are not some inherently evil entities designed to take your money. They are very heavily regulated industries that have to justify their rates by showing actual data on what their costs are, and how they have calculated their rates. Each state has an Office of the Insurance Commissioner that has to approve all rates and the methods used to calculate them.
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Old 09-18-2017, 06:34 PM   #39
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This is the reason you carry insurance. The scum that sank my dock shed was not carring insurance. Now I am stuck footing the bill for clean up and replacement. Yes I am sueing the idiot, but that's just more money out of my pocket. It has also destroyed all our winter plans to see the grandkids and has put next years cruise to Alaska in serious jeopardy. I think at least liability insurance on boats should be mandatory.
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Old 09-18-2017, 07:23 PM   #40
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Insurance companies are not some inherently evil entities designed to take your money.
I must disagree on this point, insurance company's are like a licensed thief...that smiles whilst reaching into your back pocket.
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