Inboard Diesel Express Cruisers- The New Dinosaurs?

[RWS]

I've owned a diesel express cruiser for 20 years.

Repowered her 15 years ago with twin Yanmar 6LP's and a Northern Lights genset LOVE THIS BOAT

For my needs, and that of my family, this is the perfect setup

Also, at age 64 I can and will continue to be capable of single handling this layout vessel

Thinking about moving up from a 33' to a 45'

more space, more storage, more water, bigger galley, more privacy, transom door and big assed swim platform for the dinghy

No gas outboards, NO POD DRIVES and no Detroits puts me for the most part late 1990's - mid 2000's slot.

Ideal motors would be Cummins 6CTA @450

Considering Tiara, Formula or SeaRay at this moment.

I know that the THT crowd caters more to outboards & fishing styles, but just wanted to get your opinion on the COMPARATIVE market for this type of boat.

Are these big inboard diesels really dinosaurs, and if so, how much competition should I expect as I search the market?

This style was hot 20-30 years ago - seems not so much today, ESPECIALLY FOR THE MODEL YEARS I AM SEEKING.

What say you?

BEST !

RWS

 

[rslifkin]

I wouldn't say they're dinosaurs, they've just become less common in newer boats. More have gone to outboards, pods, or sterndrives as the technology for those have improved and they either give shinier features to make sales, or allow better packaging.

Comodave on here (if my memory is good) just bought a 41ft Formula with Cummins 6CTA inboards, so options in that type are out there. You'll just have to look a bit to weed out the stuff you don't want.

Personally, I'm with you. I much prefer a straight shaft inboard over pretty much anything else.

 

[Alabama Boater]

My express

I went through a similar exercise changing boat style years ago. When I lived up north, I had a Marine Trader Trade Winds 43 CPMY, Cummins powered. Served us well cruising the St. Croix and Mississippi Rivers. When I moved south to north Alabama, to the Tennessee River, I changed to express cruiser … longer distance between points of interest. Hence, more travel speed available and since I live on the river no need for a multi level layout for me. I purchased a Tiara 33 Open … gas powered that was quickly repowered to diesel. Big block gas … 1mpg basically at any speed. Again, this boat and layout served my wife and I for 4 years but those 4 years taught us that we wanted a pedestal bed, a dry shower, larger galley, etc. just like you. I found a '95 Tiara 3700 Open with 3208 mechanical diesels at the right price. It had the features we wanted and have enjoyed several 700 mile inland river trips over the last 4 years. I generally use it in trawler mode … 9-10 mph, 1000 rpm, burning an average of 3.2 GPH over the last 500+ hrs. My 37 is capable of 27mph cruise at 2400 RPM if I am willing to pay. During my ownership of the 37, I have been fortunate to be able to do all minor and major maintenance, extensive electronics updates, and added extended comfort items. I will have to commend Tiara for providing missing data on my boat. Based on HIN, they provided original build sheet, 24 pages of electrical schematics, weight and balance data to configure my lift. Their supporting information allowed me to do the work myself and now I have detailed personal knowledge of all systems.


You quest for the “dinosaur” express is not out of line. I believe others with boating experience can relate. New boaters … not so much. Experience defines your needs and wants. Unfortunately, in this day and age, boating is by deep pockets, or learn to to be an electrician, a mechanic, and an outfitter. The used boat market is crazy but for how long?? Chase you desires while you can.

 

[ranger58sb]

Ideal motors would be Cummins 6CTA @450

Considering Tiara, Formula or SeaRay at this moment.

I know that the THT crowd caters more to outboards & fishing styles, but just wanted to get your opinion on the COMPARATIVE market for this type of boat.

Are these big inboard diesels really dinosaurs, and if so, how much competition should I expect as I search the market?

You might add Cruisers to your list.

Discussion on Club Sea Ray suggests market prices are high for Sundancers, just as with most other boats I guess...

We had 6CTAs in our previous boat, and I liked 'em. I would see the QSC (electronic common rail) version on those blocks as maybe being even better.... but that's with no first-hand experience.

-Chris

 

[Comodave]

We just bought, about a month ago, a Formula 41PC with Cummins 6CTAs in it. Ours are the 420HP version. So far we love it. We wanted either a Formula or a Tiara because of the quality of the build. We found our Formula and have been fixing some of the POs things. He wasn’t much of a knowledgeable boater, but he must have loved music due to the stereo system he put in. I have found Formula support to be fantastic. They can make me new seat skins for a 1998 model. However we are going to have the canvas fabricator do both all new Stamoid Top canvas and Sunbrella Horizon vinyl on the seats in the cockpit. One thing I do not like on the boat is the walkthrough windshield. There isn’t anything for my wife to hold onto while out on the bow. So we are going to install bow and stern thrusters so she won’t have to go out on the bow. We are adding an extended swim platform from swimplatforms.com to make boardings from the side easier. And then Seadek everything for nonskid for Radar, out lab. But everywhere I take things apart I find that Formula did a very nice job in building the boat. They just sent me some new small metal lettering for the side where one came off. Not bad support for a 23 year old boat.

 

[Seevee]

We just bought, about a month ago, a Formula 41PC with Cummins 6CTAs in it. Ours are the 420HP version. So far we love it. We wanted either a Formula or a Tiara because of the quality of the build. We found our Formula and have been fixing some of the POs things. He wasn’t much of a knowledgeable boater, but he must have loved music due to the stereo system he put in. I have found Formula support to be fantastic. They can make me new seat skins for a 1998 model. However we are going to have the canvas fabricator do both all new Stamoid Top canvas and Sunbrella Horizon vinyl on the seats in the cockpit. One thing I do not like on the boat is the walkthrough windshield. There isn’t anything for my wife to hold onto while out on the bow. So we are going to install bow and stern thrusters so she won’t have to go out on the bow. We are adding an extended swim platform from swimplatforms.com to make boardings from the side easier. And then Seadek everything for nonskid for Radar, out lab. But everywhere I take things apart I find that Formula did a very nice job in building the boat. They just sent me some new small metal lettering for the side where one came off. Not bad support for a 23 year old boat.

Had a Formula 31PC, was a great boat, but the damn Volvo 8.2 with IO drives killed it. It was a maintenance nightmare and zero support from Volvo. I might still have that boat if it had diesels, but not the Volvos that were popular at the time.



Seem like the trend for pocket cruisers in the 30s and low 40s are outboards. I think the jury is out on how well they do for the heavier boats, and fuel consumption get up there pretty quick. But the smaller boats in the less than 35 ft range do well.


For the rest of us trawler types, it will be YEARS before the good old diesel is replaced in the larger boats. Mark my word. All this talk about electric this, outboards and stuff just doesn't cut the mustard with bigger boats, nor does it do well in cars and planes.



Keep drilling... we'll be using oil for the foreseeable future. And still need it to support those stupid electric cars!

 

[Comodave]

They made the 41PC in diesel with either Cummins or Volvos. I will not own another Volvo in a boat. Had them in a Chaparral and had nothing but trouble with them and they were brand new, no support and no parts availability. When we were shopping I would first look to see what engines a boat had, if it was Volvos I would click back and move on to another boat.

 

[TBill36]

I think a lot of the draw to an outboard is trailerability. The really big ones can't be, but the long skinny ones can. Also, you're not crawling around in a bilge to service them. Then you used to have mechanical diesels that were pretty easy to get running - just get clean fuel to them and they run. Now we have electronics that add finicky problems that a lot of the outboards just don't seam to have. Take away the weight of the diesels and it seams like a win - win. Although - I prefer my heavy old reliable diesels - ride great in a heavy sea and once they're running nothing will shut them down unless I have some catastrophic mechanical problem.

 

[RWS]

Seems like the Cummins 6CTA at 350 horse is a good clean choice

 

[Comodave]

Seems like the Cummins 6CTA at 350 horse is a good clean choice

Did they make one that was only rated 350HP? I sorta thought they were at least 400HP. It is probably one of the most prolific engines out there in that HP range except maybe DDs.

 

[Comodave]

I think a lot of the draw to an outboard is trailerability. The really big ones can't be, but the long skinny ones can. Also, you're not crawling around in a bilge to service them. Then you used to have mechanical diesels that were pretty easy to get running - just get clean fuel to them and they run. Now we have electronics that add finicky problems that a lot of the outboards just don't seam to have. Take away the weight of the diesels and it seams like a win - win. Although - I prefer my heavy old reliable diesels - ride great in a heavy sea and once they're running nothing will shut them down unless I have some catastrophic mechanical problem.

We were going to look at 38’ Donzis with triple 300HP outboards. Then Ski, who I respect highly when it comes to engine maintenance, said the outboards are great until they get to around 10 years old and have been in salt water. He said if they run it is great but if they break you can’t get them apart due to all the bolts corroded. At that point he thought they were essentially a throwaway. So we went back to traditional inboards and were looking for a smaller gas powered boat. But after we sold out trawler the market was so strange that we couldn’t find a smaller gas powered Formula or Tiara. So we ended up with a bit larger diesel powered boat. Problem is there aren’t any marine diesel mechanics where we live. I wanted to have someone else do the maintenance work, but oh well we love our new Formula.

 

[ranger58sb]

Seems like the Cummins 6CTA at 350 horse is a good clean choice

Did they make one that was only rated 350HP? I sorta thought they were at least 400HP. It is probably one of the most prolific engines out there in that HP range except maybe DDs.

I've only seen 450 (430 metric) HP ratings for the 6CTA. And I've only seen them marketed as "Diamond 450."

-Chris

 

[rslifkin]

Looking at the Seaboard Marine site, they list performance curves for it at 350 and 430hp, plus a 255hp JWAC version, a 420hp 6CTA M2 and the 480hp version as a 6CTA 480CE. Oddly, no 450hp version listed.

 

[RWS]

Looking at the Seaboard Marine site, they list performance curves for it at 350 and 430hp, plus a 255hp JWAC version, a 420hp 6CTA M2 and the 480hp version as a 6CTA 480CE. Oddly, no 450hp version listed.

Could be my own mistake.

I am currently in the learning phase.

I do know the 480 version has a history of dropping valves, so I will avoid that specific engine.

RWS

 

[koliver]

I had to look that one up:
metric hp- a horsepower unit equal to 75 kilogram-meters per second'
non-metric - a unit of power equal in the U.S. to 746 watts and nearly equivalent to the English gravitational unit of the same name that equals 550 foot-pounds of work per second.
conversion constant: 1 Horsepower to Metric Horsepower = 1.0139
Who knew?

 

[Comodave]

They call them the 450 C Diamond series. I have never seen one actually listed as 450, but Formula said 450 Diamond. But they listed HP as 420. Cummins did it just to confuse everyone…

 

[ranger58sb]

The data sheet for ours said 321 kW/450 hp according to ISO 3046 fuel stop power, fuel 25°C (77°F) and 321 kW/430 hp according to ISO 8665, fuel 40°C (104°F). The "headline" on the data sheet says 450C.

A sheet with performance curves says it's 430 bhp and 450 mhp at 321 kW. (So I might have gotten the "metric" backwards, earlier.)

-Chris

 

[Comodave]

Sounds like they rated them several ways and depending on what rating you are looking at can give you different ratings.

 

[Tony Athens]

MHP vs. BHP--Your choice--all the same--Think of ii like 25.4mm = 1"

Common older Cummins mechanical engines:

370 Diamond= 355 BHP / 370 Cummins MHP

330 Diamond = 315 BHP / 330 Cummins MHP

220 Diamond= 210 BHP / 220 Cummins MHP

450 Diamond = 430 BHP = 450 Cummins MHP

The reason I use the term "Cummins MHP" is because in the 90's, they came up with there own definition of MHP.. Now days with the "Q" engines they use a internationally approved definition of MHP and the numbers are way closer to each other..

Tony

 

[Jgutten]

Back Cove is sold out until late 2022 on their diesel powered express cruisers. They can't produce them fast enough to fill demand.