I have questions, do you have answers?

[JD Ray]

I mentioned in my intro post that I am dreaming of owning a slow boat. Except that I used a lot of words to say that. My wife and I have spent a lot of time boat shopping, but that only tells us that we can't afford the boats we're most attracted to (thanks mostly to the YouTube channel AQUAHOLIC). We think we can afford a lower-priced, older boat, but realize that there's a deep well of knowledge we don't have. As such, I have a lot of questions. If anyone here is willing to provide answers, it would be greatly appreciated. So...

1. Hull material: steel or fiberglass? Steel seems more sturdy, and you can find a welder anywhere. Fiberglass seems lighter.
   
2. One engine or two? You apparently get far more fuel efficiency out of a single engine than you do a twin. I've seen boats with a "get home engine" that's essentially a shelf spare in case the main goes toes up. What other considerations are there?
   
3. How many hours of maintenance are spent on the drivetrain of a boat per hour of runtime? For instance, if you have to spend three hours changing the oil every two hundred hours of runtime... well, I can do math. What are the other maintenance items for a drivetrain?
   
4. How many hours of maintenance are spent on non-drivetrain things in a given year, presuming regular cruising or liveaboard? Watermakers, house batteries, gensets, rudders, bottom maintenance, zincs... If you're doing it all yourself, how much time does that take?
   
5. If you hire all the above out, and there are no catastrophic problems, how much does everything cost? I'm just talking regular, scheduled maintenance here.
   
6. How often do catastrophes happen? I get it, you can't really predict those. But many of you have been doing this for YEARS. How often does a major issue come up? Once in two years? Once in five?
   
7. V-berth, mid-cabin, or aft-cabin? One of the clear requirements my wife and I have about a boat is that it have a large master berth that is accessible from both sides ("island" style). To be frank, we both get up a lot in the night (direct head access is something we're keen on), and crawling over one another is not something we want to deal with. We heard somewhere that sleeping in a V-berth isn't preferred in a head sea because of the crashing of the sea against the bow. Thoughts? What about the other locations?
   
8. What's up with the flybridge? I've never been out on a boat that has a flybridge. I get that it provides extra lounge space, but is there some other function, like having a better view for navigating, that's more technical in nature?
   
9. Speed versus consumption: How much do you save by going slow? I keep hearing that "this boat consumes about X gallons of fuel per hour at Y knots, so with a fuel capacity of Z, you have a range of N. But clearly going slower gets you MUCH more range." How much more? Yes, yes, each boat is different, hull shape, load, etc. But can someone give me a few examples of consumption at say 10, 8, and 5 knots? Better yet, is there somewhere I can look up this information about a particular boat?
   
10. How far do you normally go in one passage? At seven knots, a boat makes 168 nm in twenty-four hours. That's a lot of time at the helm, even for a couple taking turns on watch. Is the fuel capacity (and therefore range) really only for occasional passages, and most people spend all their time taking short trips, or do people commonly make multi-day runs without pulling over?

I've run out of steam, but I have a lot more questions, mostly for the technical forums. I'll place them appropriately. Thanks for whatever you can tell me.

Cheers.

J.D.

 

[bogranjac1]

I mentioned in my intro post that I am dreaming of owning a slow boat. Except that I used a lot of words to say that. My wife and I have spent a lot of time boat shopping, but that only tells us that we can't afford the boats we're most attracted to (thanks mostly to the YouTube channel AQUAHOLIC). We think we can afford a lower-priced, older boat, but realize that there's a deep well of knowledge we don't have. As such, I have a lot of questions. If anyone here is willing to provide answers, it would be greatly appreciated. So...

1. Hull material: steel or fiberglass? Steel seems more sturdy, and you can find a welder anywhere. Fiberglass seems lighter.
   
2. One engine or two? You apparently get far more fuel efficiency out of a single engine than you do a twin. I've seen boats with a "get home engine" that's essentially a shelf spare in case the main goes toes up. What other considerations are there?
   
3. How many hours of maintenance are spent on the drivetrain of a boat per hour of runtime? For instance, if you have to spend three hours changing the oil every two hundred hours of runtime... well, I can do math. What are the other maintenance items for a drivetrain?
   
4. How many hours of maintenance are spent on non-drivetrain things in a given year, presuming regular cruising or liveaboard? Watermakers, house batteries, gensets, rudders, bottom maintenance, zincs... If you're doing it all yourself, how much time does that take?
   
5. If you hire all the above out, and there are no catastrophic problems, how much does everything cost? I'm just talking regular, scheduled maintenance here.
   
6. How often do catastrophes happen? I get it, you can't really predict those. But many of you have been doing this for YEARS. How often does a major issue come up? Once in two years? Once in five?
   
7. V-berth, mid-cabin, or aft-cabin? One of the clear requirements my wife and I have about a boat is that it have a large master berth that is accessible from both sides ("island" style). To be frank, we both get up a lot in the night (direct head access is something we're keen on), and crawling over one another is not something we want to deal with. We heard somewhere that sleeping in a V-berth isn't preferred in a head sea because of the crashing of the sea against the bow. Thoughts? What about the other locations?
   
8. What's up with the flybridge? I've never been out on a boat that has a flybridge. I get that it provides extra lounge space, but is there some other function, like having a better view for navigating, that's more technical in nature?
   
9. Speed versus consumption: How much do you save by going slow? I keep hearing that "this boat consumes about X gallons of fuel per hour at Y knots, so with a fuel capacity of Z, you have a range of N. But clearly going slower gets you MUCH more range." How much more? Yes, yes, each boat is different, hull shape, load, etc. But can someone give me a few examples of consumption at say 10, 8, and 5 knots? Better yet, is there somewhere I can look up this information about a particular boat?
   
10. How far do you normally go in one passage? At seven knots, a boat makes 168 nm in twenty-four hours. That's a lot of time at the helm, even for a couple taking turns on watch. Is the fuel capacity (and therefore range) really only for occasional passages, and most people spend all their time taking short trips, or do people commonly make multi-day runs without pulling over?

I've run out of steam, but I have a lot more questions, mostly for the technical forums. I'll place them appropriately. Thanks for whatever you can tell me.

Cheers.

J.D.

You have asked many questions and will get many answers from many experienced boaters.
However I offer an answer in very few words which will cover many of your questions.
'Buy this book'

 

[Comodave]

Before we try to answer those questions, you need to answer some. What type of cruising are you planning to do? Coastal or crossing oceans. Is it just the two of you or will you have guests? How handy are you? If you do your own maintenance then what could cost $500 if you have someone do it for you might only cost $50 to $100 if you do it yourself. Are you planning on anchoring every night or will you spend every night in a marina? All these thing will impact your costs dramatically. I love working on my boat and very rarely hire work done so my costs can be much lower, if I didn’t keep working on the boat but it is my hobby and I like working on it and adding equipment to it.

 

[Comodave]

You have asked many questions and will get many answers from many experienced boaters.
However I offer an answer in very few words which will cover many of your questions.
'Buy this book'

This is a great book but it is primarily for crossing oceans, not coastal cruising.

 

[bogranjac1]

This is a great book but it is primarily for crossing oceans, not coastal cruising.

Where in JD Ray's post is there a statement that he intends to or does not intend to do coastal cruising or passage making?

Therefore your post is irrelevant.

 

[Comodave]

I agree that he does not say what type of cruising he is going to do, that is why I asked him what he plans on doing. However if he is planning on coastal cruising then Beebe’s book doesn’t much apply to coastal cruising. So in case he intends on coastal cruising I wanted to let him know what type cruising the book applies to. It may save him the cost of the book if doesn’t intend on crossing oceans, so in that case the post would be relevant.

 

[bogranjac1]

Comodave Before we try to answer those questions, you need to answer some. What type of cruising are you planning to do? Coastal or crossing oceans. Is it just the two of you or will you have guests? How handy are you? If you do your own maintenance then what could cost $500 if you have someone do it for you might only cost $50 to $100 if you do it yourself. Are you planning on anchoring every night or will you spend every night in a marina? All these thing will impact your costs dramatically. I love working on my boat and very rarely hire work done so my costs can be much lower, if I didn’t keep working on the boat but it is my hobby and I like working on it and adding equipment to it.

Comodave I agree that he does not say what type of cruising he is going to do, that is why I asked him what he plans on doing. However if he is planning on coastal cruising then Beebe’s book doesn’t much apply to coastal cruising. So in case he intends on coastal cruising I wanted to let him know what type cruising the book applies to. It may save him the cost of the book if doesn’t intend on crossing oceans, so in that case the post would be relevant.

So, before even confirming with JD Ray as to his intended purpose of his intended boat and you have accepted this fact you have concluded that his purpose is coastal cruising and therefore the suggestion of buying Beebe's is inappropriate.

Comodave
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogranjac1 View Post
You have asked many questions and will get many answers from many experienced boaters.
However I offer an answer in very few words which will cover many of your questions.
'Buy this book'
This is a great book but it is primarily for crossing oceans, not coastal cruising.


your response of -

ComoDave
Quote:
I agree that he does not say what type of cruising he is going to do, that is why I asked him what he plans on doing. However if he is planning on coastal cruising then Beebe’s book doesn’t much apply to coastal cruising. So in case he intends on coastal cruising I wanted to let him know what type cruising the book applies to. It may save him the cost of the book if doesn’t intend on crossing oceans, so in that case the post would be relevant.

Regardless of how you wish to dress-up your follow-up post the fact still remains that your initial reply in response to my post was presumptuous and therefore remains so obviously irrelevant that even the 'drover's dog' would clearly see this.

 

[Nickair]

Boat Trawler

I mentioned in my intro post that I am dreaming of owning a slow boat. Except that I used a lot of words to say that. My wife and I have spent a lot of time boat shopping, but that only tells us that we can't afford the boats we're most attracted to (thanks mostly to the YouTube channel AQUAHOLIC). We think we can afford a lower-priced, older boat, but realize that there's a deep well of knowledge we don't have. As such, I have a lot of questions. If anyone here is willing to provide answers, it would be greatly appreciated. So...

1. Hull material: steel or fiberglass? Steel seems more sturdy, and you can find a welder anywhere. Fiberglass seems lighter.
   
2. One engine or two? You apparently get far more fuel efficiency out of a single engine than you do a twin. I've seen boats with a "get home engine" that's essentially a shelf spare in case the main goes toes up. What other considerations are there?
   
3. How many hours of maintenance are spent on the drivetrain of a boat per hour of runtime? For instance, if you have to spend three hours changing the oil every two hundred hours of runtime... well, I can do math. What are the other maintenance items for a drivetrain?
   
4. How many hours of maintenance are spent on non-drivetrain things in a given year, presuming regular cruising or liveaboard? Watermakers, house batteries, gensets, rudders, bottom maintenance, zincs... If you're doing it all yourself, how much time does that take?
   
5. If you hire all the above out, and there are no catastrophic problems, how much does everything cost? I'm just talking regular, scheduled maintenance here.
   
6. How often do catastrophes happen? I get it, you can't really predict those. But many of you have been doing this for YEARS. How often does a major issue come up? Once in two years? Once in five?
   
7. V-berth, mid-cabin, or aft-cabin? One of the clear requirements my wife and I have about a boat is that it have a large master berth that is accessible from both sides ("island" style). To be frank, we both get up a lot in the night (direct head access is something we're keen on), and crawling over one another is not something we want to deal with. We heard somewhere that sleeping in a V-berth isn't preferred in a head sea because of the crashing of the sea against the bow. Thoughts? What about the other locations?
   
8. What's up with the flybridge? I've never been out on a boat that has a flybridge. I get that it provides extra lounge space, but is there some other function, like having a better view for navigating, that's more technical in nature?
   
9. Speed versus consumption: How much do you save by going slow? I keep hearing that "this boat consumes about X gallons of fuel per hour at Y knots, so with a fuel capacity of Z, you have a range of N. But clearly going slower gets you MUCH more range." How much more? Yes, yes, each boat is different, hull shape, load, etc. But can someone give me a few examples of consumption at say 10, 8, and 5 knots? Better yet, is there somewhere I can look up this information about a particular boat?
   
10. How far do you normally go in one passage? At seven knots, a boat makes 168 nm in twenty-four hours. That's a lot of time at the helm, even for a couple taking turns on watch. Is the fuel capacity (and therefore range) really only for occasional passages, and most people spend all their time taking short trips, or do people commonly make multi-day runs without pulling over?

I've run out of steam, but I have a lot more questions, mostly for the technical forums. I'll place them appropriately. Thanks for whatever you can tell me.

Cheers.

J.D.

1) Hull material:
Steel has rust, maintenance and electrolysis issues. Fiberglass has blister potential, (not necessarily structural.) Since you mentioned you will look for an older less expensive boat, Fiberglass over steel may be the safer buy. Older fiberglass quality hulls hold up and are in the less expensive category. Older steel hulls are not nearly as common and are very high maintenance. I have seen older steel boats that have rust dust rather than the steel that was there under many coats of paint. Good paint doesn’t mean good steel under. Steel can be a great option if maintained from the construction process and maintained through the years. Talk to a professional marine surveyor to get the best explanation on this issue.

2) One engine vs. two:
People are divided on this. Most commercial boats use one propulsion engine.
Advantages: Engine weight is centered. Fuel efficiency is near the same between a single vs twin engine setup, usually. (It takes an “amount of power” to get the boat to cruise speed then an “amount of power” to keep it there, regardless if a single or twin engine. The “amount of power” needed uses very near the same amount of fuel whether a single or twin engine setup.) A single engine allows more room to work on the engine. A single engine has a much better protected prop and shaft than a twin engine setup. Also the rudder is much better protected on a single engine. All protection is due to being inline with the keel. There is less maintenance, repairs, downtime and expense with a single engine. Some argue the twin setup offers redundancy and the ability to continue with one engine out. Twin engine boats have a maneuvering advantage that can be nice in marinas, etc. Single engine boats with a stern or bow thruster have similar maneuvering advantages. Maintaining a stern thruster is obviously less cost and labor than a second engine and drive train. Most engine issues are fuel related, therefore it is wise to have redundant fuel setup with switch over ability (underway) for even a single engine. Maintain a single at better than average standards and it is dependable and efficient. In the older and lower priced boats you will find the price will hardly reflect a single vs twin engine difference. Therefore get the best condition boat you are looking for and accept either a single or a twin setup. You will get a lot of feedback on this single vs twin issue. They will be good points to consider.

3) How many hours of maintenance per hours used for drivetrain: Depends on what drivetrain the boat has and how it is set up. Drive train is fairly low maintenance.

4) How many hours of maintenance per hours used, non drivetrain: Depends on what things/systems the boat has and how old/used it is. The more there is the more maintenance and repairs/replacement. How much time does it take: Several times longer than you plan on. Make a day of a project and enjoy it as a hobby.

5) If you hire everything out: A general rule is to expect maintenance/repairs to be around 10% of the boat’s value, annually. This assumes you will do the easy maintenance. If you do more of it yourself it can be less $ and vise a verse.

6) Catastrophes: Depends on how old, many, simple or complex your boat systems are. Nothing lasts forever. One fella on here said, “everything on your boat is broken, you just don’t know it yet.” Most people look for the least expensive version of the type they want. Old systems can be costly and sometimes are not even rebuildable. Consider purchasing the boat that has had the most systems rebuilt/replaced. You will come out financially ahead if you have it already done by prior owner. Unless you can do it all yourself, free labor. Paying to have it done is always a loosing deal, financially, because it is the next owner that gets the great deal. Everyone wants different systems that they like, although these category of boats are all basically using similar systems to accomplish their common missions.

7) Birth accommodation: Based on what you wrote it reads like an aft cabin is best suited for your needs.

8) Fly Bridge: A fly bridge is not necessary and has additional maintenance, gauges, controls, radios, costs, leaks, etc. Many like fly bridges due to them being another area to spend time on the boat and for grand visibility whether underway, moored at the dock, anchored out or maneuvering in a tight marina. If you plan cruising low bridge locations, a fly bridge may be a height problem. Unless it is enclosed or at least covered they don’t get used much, on average.

9) Fuel usage at various settings: Search this trawlerforum. (Grand Banks 32 Fuel Consumption)
There are many examples and spreadsheet work-ups that are available. The slower the better. Fuel usage ramps up increasingly steeper to gain any speed.

.
10) How far in one passage: The equipment of most boats in this category will tolerate 24/7 cruising. “Usually” commercial boats will cruise 24/7. Pleasure boats “usually” limit to mostly daylight hrs due to not having a good watch, radar, routing and experience.

Listen to everyone and read much.

 

[mvweebles]

OP has a lot of basic questions that would indeed be answered by reading VUP regardless of passagemaking plans. George Buellers Troller Yacht book also comes to mind.

For many of the questions, answer comes down to personal preference based on usage. We are a couple who rarely have guests anymore. Our intended usage is coastal cruising between Alaska and Florida via Panama Canal.

My preferences

Sedan layout. Like the flow to outdoor space. Tradeoff is second stateroom is either non-existent (my Willard 36) or very tight and close to master. I am not fond of the traditional tri cabin layout (eg Grand Banks Classic) as we spend time in tropics and warm weather. There is not enough covered outdoor space, and the space there is - flybridge - feels disconnected. Same issue with aft cabin motor yachts and sundeck layouts.

Pilot house. I prefer not - pure sedan is our preference. Even though we plan a multi-year cruise and like overnight passages, just seems like a waste of space given how much time we spend at anchor. As an observation, 90% of the bench-seats in PHs are not deep enough and are not comfortable for more than an hour or two. Also, despite have well over 100 overnight passages on PH boats, I have never seen a PH berth used for sleeping. Exception are the captains quarters on larger boats (N62 comes to mind). In short, for my taste and usage, PH looks cool and beefy but is not a good tradeoff. Generally, the market thinks otherwise so they usually call a premium. That said, if my cruising grounds were the PNW, PH would be fine, maybe even preferred as long as seat was deep enough to hang out and read for two people

Single or twin engine. Much of this comes down to speed. We like life at jogging speed. Twin owners often say it's nice to have the turn of speed just in case. We just plan accordingly. Biggest advantage for us is not economy, but protected running gear. There are a few twins with well protected props, but only a few. Most just have a small skeg keel - - - - if they have anything. Second big advantage is access to engine for maintenance. There was a recent thread where the OP was asking how to lay a wrench on his starter motor. By far the biggest shortcoming of a single is lack of backup propulsion. Not a big deal if you're within range of towing insurance. In reality, this is a minor item, but it weighs on me mentally.

Mid Ship Masted Stateroom . For the most part, there is no choice in boats under about 50 feet. Master is either in aft end, or vee berth. I used to deliver boats and delivered a ton of new nordhavns so know the benefits of a mid ship stateroom well. At sea in many conditions they are fine. Rough seas usually means head seas which means sleeping on the floor in the salon anyway or aft cabin in motor yacht. Mid ship is not a cure all. We recently decided to have our stateroom reconfigured from having the head in the forepeak and a starboard double bunk to a vee berth. Reason is twofold. First, as you mention, nocturnal trips to head. Second, better ventilation at anchor. Catching breezes vs running a generator for AC is important to us. More than offsets any sea berth benefit of a mid or aft stateroom.

Flybridge. These run the gamut. Most are setup for boat show vision of cocktails and are surprisingly useless for long range and long term usage. We are in the process of reconfiguring our flybridge from a small thwart bench to two long parallel benches that are good hangout areas for reading or standing watch in good weather. Benches are long enough and wide enough for sleeping. Overall, I'd caution that many, many boats suffer from a lack of comfortable seating - seats are not deep enough.

Metal or plastic. I don't care. 98% are plastic but I wouldn't dismiss a metal boat. Harder to resell in US.

On closing, every few months we get a post from someone like the OP who is doing a tabletop exercise on what they should buy. These posts are catnip to many, myself included, so we respond even though there's a decent chance the OP is long gone. But if the OP is still reading, my last bit of advice would be to worry less about your last boat and more about your first boat. In other words, many of these questions are personal based on who you are and how you'll use the boat. Even identical people may make different choices. Yea, I know, it can be expensive to swap boats. But NY strong hunch is people have wasted a helluva lot more money trying to buy the right boat first than just buying a boat they can use today, then rotating into a boat.

Good luck
Peter

 

[Mako]

OP, instead of trying to get your questions answered here, how about spending your quarantine time reading through the thousand pages of existing threads where every single one of your questions, plus a hundred more, have been previously discussed. Then start a new thread for specifics. Also, there is the sister-forum CruisersForum, so you can add another thousand pages of information.

 

[O C Diver]

To your questions:

1. Buy a fiberglass boat. There are pros and cons to steel, but fiberglass is a better choice for most people.

2. If you're not passage making (500+ miles offshore) one engine, well maintained is fine. Two engines of the correct size will be slightly less efficient than one. It's rare to find two engines of the correct size in a displacement speed boat. Get towing insurance, it's cheap. If you go where there aren't tow boats, you need a second type of propulsion.

3. I do oil changes as hours require. I do annual maintenance once a year, maybe 12 hours over 2 days. You can also ignore annual maintenance and wait for things to fail at the most inopportune times.

4. I suffer from OCD and spend maybe 24 hours on annual maintenance on other systems once a year. This doesn't include haulout. Probably spend 4 hours each month while cruising. Add oil changes on top of that.

5. If I were planning to pay someone to do all my annual maintenance, parts and labor, I would assume $5,000 and expect $3K to $4K.

6. I don't expect catastrophes (because I do annual maintenance and am careful) and have a more expensive insurance policy that covers them. I don't expect to loose the engine in a catastrophic failure, but the insurance covers it. One of your choices to make is how much insurance and what isn't covered.

7. I like my Island queen in the bow. As a solo cruiser, the boat is at anchor when I'm sleeping, usually. You will have to decide how often you're underway when someone is sleeping. I wouldn't base my stateroom on an event that happens less than 5% of the time. You can always sleep on the couch in the saloon when it does.

8. The ultimate choice is a pilothouse, see my avatar.

9. With the original engine, my boat would go 14 knots at 21 GPH (that's 1.5 gallons per mile). With the small engine it goes 7 knots at 2 GPH (3.5 miles per gallon).
6 knots at 5 MPG
7 knots at 3.5 MPG
8 knots at 2.1 MPG

10. I normally day cruise 50 to 100 miles and then anchor for the night. Fort Myers, FL to the Chesapeake is around 1,100 miles. 2 weeks is a miserable delivery run at 7 knots. 3 weeks is comfortable with an occasional day off. 4 weeks is a wonderful site seeing trip. It's not the destination, it's the journey. If you're not stopping along the way, you're missing the point of cruising.

Ted

 

[ranger58sb]

JD, you've essentially asked us to define the universe... in 25 words or less. And much of what you're asking depends very much on personal preferences, so there's no right answer unless you're the one picking it.

1. Read all the threads here about steel hulls. Fiberglass is sturdy, inexpensive, easily repaired.

2. Yes. Read all the threads here about single and twin engines. Your pick.

3. Hmmm... I could probably do our annual engine/genset maintenance in 8 hours. We usually put about 150 hours/year on the boat except for more in over-winter cruising years.

4. Daily, weekly, monthly, annual, or as-needed chores. Depends... on boat, prior maintenance, access to the system at hand... How long is a piece of string?

5. An arm, a leg, your first-born, a mule, and a good hunting dog.

6. Seldom. Unless you're a bozo. Prior planning can eliminate most.

7. Yes. You'll have to shop to see what suits you. We too prefer walk-around access. Our current situation needs a big climb up to the island queen mattress in the bow, so we're considering slightly larger boats with an amidships master stateroom.

8. Better visibility. We live in a world of crab pots. Read all the threads about upper vs. lower helms. Your pick.

9. A lot. Think 4 GPH total at 8 knots vs 26 GPH total at 18 knots.

10. We prefer to run no more than 5-6 hours/day... at whatever speed. If cruising at slow speed (~8 kts) then less than 50 NM/day; if at 18 kts then maybe more like ~100 NM/day. We've gone longer, at each speed, but we'd rather stop earlier and smell the coffee.

We tend to shop by FEATURES that are important to us, not by boat brand/type/color, etc. For example, stairs (not a ladder) to the flybridge. Then we find boats that have that. Et cetera. You'll have to define your own must have/nice to have features.

Once must have features are identified, you'll often find you don't have much choice on some things assuming you're shopping the used market. For example, that engine thing; you find the boat, engine setup and availability is what it is.

-Chris

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. JD. As you can see by members MUCH smarter and experienced than I, the answer is "it depends".



You have yet to mention size, budget, cruising aspirations and boating experience. That information will help a LOT towards more appropriate answers.



I expect you've become addicted to YachtWorld. NOT a problem if you recognize and admit to said addiction.


So. Armed with a pile of potential listings, emotions aside, with your finances in order (best to pre-arrange the $$ available) and loins girded you can do a couple of things to help with your questions (This is assuming the current situation stabilizes):


Start walking the docks and talking to people.
Plan a road trip if a particularly interesting vessel catches your eye(s).

Go to boat shows.
As alluded to, sit down with your partner and discuss.


When we were actively looking we each wrote a list of: Must haves, like to haves and don't wants. Initially done solo without discussion. THEN we exchanged lists and discussed.


Rent a couple of boats for a week and enjoy. You should get some feel for what works for you. Needn't be local. How about a week somewhere warm the middle of next winter?


Keep those cards and letters coming folks and remember to get your pet spayed or neutered.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

One thing which "bugs" me about this forum (although just a very little bit) is that many responses to simple questions are never really answered. Members either need too much information or get too technical or whatever.

Here are answers to your questions. Bear in mind that if you take all my advice you will end up being just like me. Why anyone would want to be like me is way beyond me! IMHO, that would be just plain stupid.

Anyway, here goes:

1) If you are going under 50 feet, Fiberglass is the answer. Unless you LOVE the extra work
a wooden boat requires.

2) One engine, get a good one and take care of it.

3) Drivetrain maintenance, A couple hours in the Spring and a half a day in the fall.

4) Boat maintenance, A couple days a month.

5) Cost, based on a 36 foot boat. $500 a month, Total, fuel, insurance, dockage, etc. Double that for the first couple years until you get the boat the way you like it. Double it again if you hire EVERYTHING done. (wash down, wax, installing a new radio, installing a TV, etc)

6) Catastrophic repairs, probably once in an ownership of a given boat. (Five boats, five catastrophes) Elective catastrophes, (New canvass, new upholstery, paint the boat, etc) happen as often as you get money burning a hole in your pocket.

7) Aft cabin, for sure.

8) I would not own a boat without a F.B.

9) If you buy a trawler, either a true displacement or semi displacement hull you will get about 5 - 7 miles per gallon. Doesn't matter the speed. trawlers have only one speed, slow, about 7 mph.

10) You find that you are getting tired after 50 miles. 70 is doable also but you will want a nap upon arrival.

Go For IT..

pete

 

[mvweebles]

5) Cost, based on a 36 foot boat. $500 a month, Total, fuel, insurance, dockage, etc. Double that for the first couple years until you get the boat the way you like it. Double it again if you hire EVERYTHING done. (wash down, wax, installing a new radio, installing a TV, etc)

6) Catastrophic repairs, probably once in an ownership of a given boat. (Five boats, five catastrophes) Elective catastrophes, (New canvass, new upholstery, paint the boat, etc) happen as often as you get money burning a hole in your pocket.

To provide context beyond the 10%-20% rule (or "as much as you have" rule), this means $125/hr-$150/hr for mechanic/skilled labor. Maybe $60/hr for general labor. For the early years, I would guess it easy to have 50-100 annual billable hours for repairs, maintenance, and typical upgrades. Now, of course this varies widely on the size and complexity of the boat, but you get the idea - $8k-$12k in labor alone. Double that when installed gear and parts are included (another roughly-right rule - labor is 50% of the overall project costs). This is on top of anticipated and general costs - insurance, bottom diving, dock, which I agree is in the range of $500/mo for a typical 40-footer. .

Catastrophic repairs can run the gamut. Leaking fuel tank? $10k-$15k. I have a friend who tapped bottom on his Horizon 52-foot Power Cat. By the time all the repairs were done, and a set of spare props, he was $18k lighter in the wallet. Severely over-heated engine can easily be $15k rebuild. Replace a turbo can run to $5k on a moderately sized engine.

Boating is not for the feint of heart. BTW - did anyone ever hear back from the guy on the Formosa Trawler anchored Key West who dumped a tank of diesel into the water due to bad tank?

Peter

 

[JD Ray]

You have asked many questions and will get many answers from many experienced boaters.
However I offer an answer in very few words which will cover many of your questions.
'Buy this book'

Just bought it for Kindle. Was going to get the hardcover, but decided that the ability to read it without a lamp and to adjust the font size for my old eyes was a benefit.

Thanks for the tip.

 

[rsn48]

Just be aware that a cheap boat isn't cheap most of the time. Expect some major repairs along the way.

 

[Moonfish]

JD, it's my sense that your sense of humor will go a long way on this forum!



But, so far you are getting some good information here. Mostly from "opinions", however much of it is actually experience-based so there's good value in that.

 

[GH41]

I'll agree with the others... We don't know enough about how he wants to use the boat to tell him what to expect. Boats that don't move don't break down but they still cost money to own. Around here a 35-40 ft trawler will cost you 1000-1200 bucks a month to own if it's paid for and you never leave the dock.

 

[RCook]

Hi JD,
Here’s an example or two of costs:

Our boat is a 2002 37 Nordic Tug. It’s a very nice coastal cruiser, but not capable of going to Hawaii. Main berth is in the bow, with an almost queen size mattress accessible from each side. The second berth has bunk beds. We bought it in 2016, with 1,485 hours on its single 6BTA 5.9 M3 Cummins diesel. In four years, we’ve put 3,100 hours on it, traveling some 17,000 nm on the Inside Passage between Puget Sound and SE Alaska.

Slip costs, insurance, and annual tax, are about $5,000/yr.

She weighs about 28,000 lb loaded. With a big slow-turning prop, cruising at 7-7.5 knots (efficient speed for her length), she gets 3.7-4.0 nm per gallon. And some of that fuel is used by the generator and diesel furnace. Roughly $1/nm, or $4,000/yr for us.

Routine maintenance is done by me. Less costly, and helps me know the equipment.
Head maintenance, about $100/yr.
Four oil/filter changes per year, $80 each, about $360/yr.
Engine zincs, fuel filters, seawater impellers, belts, and other misc items, about $300/yr.

Replacing underwater zincs, by a diver, about $300/yr.
Bottom painting, by a pro, including haulout, every three years, about $700/yr.

Replacing/upgrading various old equipment with new, including batteries and radar (our only catastrophic failure so far), about $3,000/yr.

About $5,000/yr ($6,000 at most) plus fuel, slip, ins, tax, for a total of $14-$15K /yr. About 5% of boat cost.

Our previous 26-foot diesel cruiser, over 16 years and 39,000 nm of Inside Passage cruising, cost a similar percentage to own and operate.

 

[JD Ray]

Now there's a bit of information I can use, even if it's a bit hyperbolic.

Right now we can't say how we'll use the boat for sure, but presuming my wife can tolerate bobbing on the hook for extended periods, I would like us to start with regular three-day-weekend stays on the boat with one or two two- or three-week trips around the Puget Sound and maybe up to the Queen Charlottes and the Inside Passage in the first couple of years. Once we get comfortable managing the boat, I'd like to take a long trip in years three and four, maybe down to San Francisco, Sacramento, or L.A. (we have people in those places). By that point, we'd be comfortable at sea, and it would be time to examine whether we want to brave bluewater passagemaking. Alternately, sell the boat and buy a different one in the Med, where I'd like to spend a few years after I retire, which I'd like to do five or so years from now.

Most of the time it would be just my wife and I on the boat. On occasion, for weekend trips, we'd take on guests, which could be one or two adults, perhaps a couple; perhaps not. Appropriate sleeping capacity will be necessary, but I'm not against putting a guest on the sofa in the salon and another in a guest berth. Long passages with guests are unlikely. I've noticed that a lot of boats, particularly catamarans, are fitted with heads at every corner. To me, more than two heads on a boat like this is a waste of space and plumbing, and we'd be fine with one (my wife may disagree).

We like to cook, and a well-outfitted galley with counterspace draws us. Also, large windows in the salon. A healthy-sized cockpit would obviate our desire to have lounging space on a flybridge, and I'd rather have flat-top space to put solar panels. A little lounge space on a foredeck would be nice, allowing for choices of sun whichever direction it's coming from. A modest swimdeck for getting in and out of the water or kayaks would get a lot of use.

Does that help paint the picture?

 

[JD Ray]

Hi JD,
Here’s an example or two of costs:

Our boat is a 2002 37 Nordic Tug. It’s a very nice coastal cruiser, but not capable of going to Hawaii. Main berth is in the bow, with an almost queen size mattress accessible from each side. The second berth has bunk beds. We bought it in 2016, with 1,485 hours on its single 6BTA 5.9 M3 Cummins diesel. In four years, we’ve put 3,100 hours on it, traveling some 17,000 nm on the Inside Passage between Puget Sound and SE Alaska.

...

About $5,000/yr ($6,000 at most) plus fuel, slip, ins, tax, for a total of $14-$15K /yr. About 5% of boat cost.

Wow, great rundown. Thank you.

 

[mvweebles]

Hi JD,
Here’s an example or two of costs:

Our boat is a 2002 37 Nordic Tug. It’s a very nice coastal cruiser, but not capable of going to Hawaii. Main berth is in the bow, with an almost queen size mattress accessible from each side. The second berth has bunk beds. We bought it in 2016, with 1,485 hours on its single 6BTA 5.9 M3 Cummins diesel. In four years, we’ve put 3,100 hours on it, traveling some 17,000 nm on the Inside Passage between Puget Sound and SE Alaska.

Slip costs, insurance, and annual tax, are about $5,000/yr.

She weighs about 28,000 lb loaded. With a big slow-turning prop, cruising at 7-7.5 knots (efficient speed for her length), she gets 3.7-4.0 nm per gallon. And some of that fuel is used by the generator and diesel furnace. Roughly $1/nm, or $4,000/yr for us.

Routine maintenance is done by me. Less costly, and helps me know the equipment.
Head maintenance, about $100/yr.
Four oil/filter changes per year, $80 each, about $360/yr.
Engine zincs, fuel filters, seawater impellers, belts, and other misc items, about $300/yr.

Replacing underwater zincs, by a diver, about $300/yr.
Bottom painting, by a pro, including haulout, every three years, about $700/yr.

Replacing/upgrading various old equipment with new, including batteries and radar (our only catastrophic failure so far), about $3,000/yr.

About $5,000/yr ($6,000 at most) plus fuel, slip, ins, tax, for a total of $14-$15K /yr. About 5% of boat cost.

Our previous 26-foot diesel cruiser, over 16 years and 39,000 nm of Inside Passage cruising, cost a similar percentage to own and operate.

This is indeed great information. A couple comments to the OP. First, this is an extraordinarily heavy usage regime - very few people put close to 1000 hours per year on their boats. Hat's off to this user. The fact that he speaks so highly of his Nordic Tug over that period is a very strong endorsement for the boat, and the type of boat, at least in the PNW.

Second, this owner defers a ton of costs and hassle by doing the work himself. Having a mechanic come and do a full engine service, check impeller, etc. is at least $700, and could easily run $1000 with the generator. It's a full day including drive-time. I'm guessing he also replaced his own batteries and installed his own radar/instruments - to have those installed by a tech, you can at least double the costs.

RCook - definitely impressed. Sounds like you're having a blast. Good luck with getting back out on the water soon.

Peter

 

[JD Ray]

So what it comes down to is that I should plan to spend $1500 per month, accounting for annual and bi-annual costs, over and above the cost of the boat (any boat payment, etc.).

 

[mvweebles]

So what it comes down to is that I should plan to spend $1500 per month, accounting for annual and bi-annual costs, over and above the cost of the boat (any boat payment, etc.).

Depends on the boat, but for a standard 40-ish footer that isn't a gold plated boat, should be roughly right. Cruise more pay more. But $18k/yr will get you into a comfortable place. Barring unforseen stuff

 

[Art]

In the realm of used boats:

If/when you locate/purchase the "correct" size/model/style boat to fit your [and your partner's] needs/desires/wishes... that boat had better be in really good condition to begin with for your years of forthcoming ownership/use/enjoyment.

Two Old Sayings:
1. 24/7; every portion of your boat is getting ready to eventually breakdown. Some portions sooner... some portions later.
2. Rule of thumb [averaged - per decade] annual costs = 10% of original purchase price of a boat. In other words - $100K boat = $10K annual ownership cost.

Due to many reasons/circumstances the 10% annual cost can be increased or decreased.

Purchasing and using a boat is always best [easiest] when the person/people understand boats and boating. If new to boats and boating then it is wise to do your best to research and learn in every way you can... for a fairly long period before purchasing a boat.

Happy "Boat-Search" Daze! - And, Good Luck!!! - Art

 

[GH41]

Hi JD,
Here’s an example or two of costs:

Our boat is a 2002 37 Nordic Tug. It’s a very nice coastal cruiser, but not capable of going to Hawaii. Main berth is in the bow, with an almost queen size mattress accessible from each side. The second berth has bunk beds. We bought it in 2016, with 1,485 hours on its single 6BTA 5.9 M3 Cummins diesel. In four years, we’ve put 3,100 hours on it, traveling some 17,000 nm on the Inside Passage between Puget Sound and SE Alaska.

Slip costs, insurance, and annual tax, are about $5,000/yr.

She weighs about 28,000 lb loaded. With a big slow-turning prop, cruising at 7-7.5 knots (efficient speed for her length), she gets 3.7-4.0 nm per gallon. And some of that fuel is used by the generator and diesel furnace. Roughly $1/nm, or $4,000/yr for us.

Routine maintenance is done by me. Less costly, and helps me know the equipment.
Head maintenance, about $100/yr.
Four oil/filter changes per year, $80 each, about $360/yr.
Engine zincs, fuel filters, seawater impellers, belts, and other misc items, about $300/yr.

Replacing underwater zincs, by a diver, about $300/yr.
Bottom painting, by a pro, including haulout, every three years, about $700/yr.

Replacing/upgrading various old equipment with new, including batteries and radar (our only catastrophic failure so far), about $3,000/yr.

About $5,000/yr ($6,000 at most) plus fuel, slip, ins, tax, for a total of $14-$15K /yr. About 5% of boat cost.

Our previous 26-foot diesel cruiser, over 16 years and 39,000 nm of Inside Passage cruising, cost a similar percentage to own and operate.

What does your slip cost per month? Does it include power? Thanks in advance.

 

[AlanT]

I went back and looked at your initial post. You mention that you are about 5 years out.

I think that is good and is a perfect amount of time, because you have a lot to consider and your list is expansive but a number of the answers you seek can not be answered by anyone - they will be unique to you and will only come to you during your journey of acquiring knowledge during those 5 years. So its right to have the questions. And making a list is a very organized way of doing that. Now you need to get out in the world and start seeking your own answers.

I have practical experience in this because I spent a similar time choosing my perfect boat (it was a sailboat at that time so I wont bore you with the details). What is relevant is that the boat(s) that I thought would be perfect at the beginning of that journey did not even make the final list by the time I came to buy - why? Because I listened, I learned, Read historical reviews of boats that interested me. I joined the owner/member blogs of the brands I was interested in to see what the owners were complaining and proud about. I did some charters, my wife did a "women at the helm" charter that gave her a good deal of confidence and helped her envisage a layout that she preferred. We took coastal seamanship classes including an overnight passage. This taught us what we needed to know about having easy means for the watch to communicate with the resting crew on night watch. We did all of this in a relaxed way over 5 years often while on vacation, learning all the time. Most of the time it was fun.
Asking questions and seeking knowledge, learning sometimes just by osmosis hanging around marinas. We learned about the designers of boats we liked and that led us to reviews of their best and worst boats. We added boats to the file and we discarded boats - pretty soon we deleted entire categories of boat and brands until we were left with a shortlist.

After 5 years our questions had morphed into requirements and it was crystal clear to us that:
1. We needed to at least double our planned expenditure to achieve what we both agreed we wanted and
2. In that price range there were about 5 or 6 boats that would have worked and only 3 boats that very satisfactorily answered all our requirements. Any of those 3 would have worked extremely well. Our final choice was made simply because of the 3 it was the most visually attractive and most customizable.

The first boat we thought we would buy when we started looking was a Hunter Passage 450 (45') for about $250k. We wound up commissioning a Hylas 49' for around $650k.

 

[RedRascal]

I'd recommend doing a few charters. Pick your front runner style of boat and go charter it for a week. You'll learn a ton about what works well and what seems awkward. It will run the gamut from helm visibility, to gallery efficiency, to heads and showers, to engine room checks, to ease of launching the dinghy and docking.

One other cost is your "cost of money". If you have $50k in a boat that's $50k that's not invested and earning money for later in life.

 

[JD Ray]

Yeah, the "cash on cash return" factor for money that could otherwise be invested is certainly a draw. Money spent on boats, to me, is a "cost of doing business" for a lifestyle.

I just told my wife about the ~$1500 per month on top of the price of a boat, and her response was, "Well, that's certainly set me on my heels." She was apparently thinking $1500 per month would include a boat payment on $125K trawler. Think again, my lovely.