Hurricane Ian Ripple Effects: Questions for the Professionals on the Forum

[psneeld]

You compare these storms by where they land. If you’re on the right side of the eye the storm is pushing water and the big surge into you. If it lands at high tide or even worse a high Spring tide then levels will be much higher. Tampa dodged a bullet with Ian as they caught the left side of the eye which blew all the water out. Many people don’t understand this and proclaim my boat and my house rode out Hurricane - - - - with little damage but the fact is worst case damage always occurs on the right side of the eye. So you can have a bad blow pass you with minimal damage if your on the good side.

If I was on the East coast of Florida and had enough time based on storm forecast I’d run for the St John’s River and go up so far I couldn’t find anything but mullet boats. A lot of commercial guys still consider this big river good shelter.

Rick

Sure I get the dangerous semicircle and all that...but there is a boatload more than just being on one side or the other that determines damage.

I too have a bit of history, even professionally with canes. Evacutions have to balance variables, not just right or left side even though it can be huge it still has to be just part of the factoring (at least the way I was trained and executed).

What I was pointing out about Sandy and Ian is 2 diversely powerful storms can have similar damage totals based on many factors... including preparations both long and short term. But look at the storms and how long people had to evaluate what they were going to be and where they were going is almost incomparable from my viewpoint.

 

[Group9]

Unfortunately, hauling out isn't necessarily better. Hundreds of boats floated off the blocks during Sandy and other hurricanes. Boats over 35', especially with high superstructure get blown over by hurricanes while on blocks. I have weathered a couple of hurricanes with the trawler in the water as I felt it was safer in the water than in available boatyards. My charter boat rode out 3 or 4 hurricane in water at Ocean City, MD. Yards with concrete slabs and anchors to strap the boats down are the exception not the majority.

All that being said, you need to follow the marina contract or be liable for the consequences. Too many people pick a marina based on the Tiki bar or distance from the parking lot..

Ted

It doesn’t matter. People don’t change. They are who they are.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

New England weather is often the accumulation of all other weather in the US

We worry about tsunami and volcanos!

 

[garbler]

Sure I get the dangerous semicircle and all that...but there is a boatload more than just being on one side or the other that determines damage.

I too have a bit of history, even professionally with canes. Evacutions have to balance variables, not just right or left side even though it can be huge it still has to be just part of the factoring (at least the way I was trained and executed).

What I was pointing out about Sandy and Ian is 2 diversely powerful storms can have similar damage totals based on many factors... including preparations both long and short term. But look at the storms and how long people had to evaluate what they were going to be and where they were going is almost incomparable from my viewpoint.

Okay so now I know you are a risk management pro but my comments were not relevant to evacuation and preparations or elevations, building codes or people’s mind set and more to the point monetary loss. I was talking about the physical rotational characteristics of hurricanes in the Northern Hemisphere. And the fact that there are so many inhabitants now living in Florida or the SE that actually don’t understand this.

 

[Hippocampus]

“Well, if you choose to boat in an area where there is no where to run and no where to hide and remain there during season, insurancee companies should be hitting up these high risk areas with appropriate premiums that cover the losses instead of jacking up rates for others who aren't even in the same country.”
.Thanks Simi. Well said.

For decades now we’ve been traveling thousands of miles to “play” the seasons. Starting to believe the traditional 6/1 to 11/1 is no longer true. September may remain the most dangerous month but now seeing events at the ends and even beyond the shoulder seasons. Having shopped insurance annually for years the zone remains about the same with the southern bays of Grenada still considered outside the zone. From what I know insurance companies agree. That section of the island has had and continues to have less hurricane impact than northern US east coast. Look at the historical spaghetti tracks. Much rather be there than Halifax Canada.
We got married on the beach on Sanibel. One of our favorite places. Like Barbados it will be rebuilt. Structures likely will not be sufficient to endure the next event.

 

[ranger58sb]

I suspect most of the people who leave their boats in marinas during Hurricanes, are the people who don't care if insurance rates go up.

Guess I'd be a bit more charitable. I reckon those folks exist, but I wouldn't suspect they're the majority.

I think I'd usually describe the situation for most folks as "pick what seems to be the safest of bad options" and hope for the best. If not in a marina, where? Yes, there are sometimes some options, but none all that great.

And probably every single boat that's suffered damage has it's own story...

New thought: I wonder if anyone had moved their boat TO Legacy Harbour just prior to Ian's landfall... given the prediction aimed at Tampa, and given Legacy's decent track record over prior years. If so, I'd say it's an example of trying to do the right thing... that went south.

-Chris

 

[psneeld]

Okay so now I know you are a risk management pro but my comments were not relevant to evacuation and preparations or elevations, building codes or people’s mind set and more to the point monetary loss. I was talking about the physical rotational characteristics of hurricanes in the Northern Hemisphere. And the fact that there are so many inhabitants now living in Florida or the SE that actually don’t understand this.

Funny I am discussing the same...just with a different twist.... the people in NJ and NY didn't think they were that vulnerable either to a storm like Sandy.

At least Florida had a lot of code changes that it now takes Cat 4 or 5 to do the same damage a much lessor storm elsewhere....dangerous semicircle or not.

Plus there isn't a Floridian I know who DOESN'T understand at least heard of because the media bombards you with it.... right/left sides of the eye....and they know just how it will effect them.

 

[backinblue]

Well, if you choose to boat in an area where there is no where to run and no where to hide and remain there during season, insurancee companies should be hitting up these high risk areas with appropriate premiums that cover the losses instead of jacking up rates for others who aren't even in the same country.
.
Over here, many people move their boats 1000 miles or more to be out of the cyclone belt each and every year.
Constant stream on AIS heading south daily for the last few weeks

For those of us recreational boaters who don't live aboard, moving 1000 miles for several months is not an option. Also, once a hit is predicted, there is also no where to run and even if you wanted to haul out, the capacity for hauling is limited. The majority of boaters in a given popular boating area often have no choice other than to try and storm-proof their boat as much as possible in their home port. It doesn't mean they don't care and just sip drinks from tha marina bar thinking that insurance will cover the damage.

 

[psneeld]

The truth is...many boaters don't really care and trust insurance.

I worked for a lady one time who called me after the first snow to move her boat and jet skis to the marina. She had forgotten about them. No concept of freezing temps on boats.

 

[Group9]

Hoping really hard that nothing bad happens, is not really a plan. But, a lot of people sure think it is.

 

[backinblue]

There are many clueless boaters regardless of the season or the weather. I don't agree that the majority don't care. For those that think that's the case, I wonder what you would suggest when a storm is predicted to hit an area in a few days with many thousands of boats in the water at marinas.

 

[Group9]

There are many clueless boaters regardless of the season or the weather. I don't agree that the majority don't care. For those that think that's the case, I wonder what you would suggest when a storm is predicted to hit an area in a few days with many thousands of boats in the water at marinas.

Like with most things in life, the time to formulate an answer to that question is well before an impending crisis. If you have waited until the day or two before a hurricane hits, to decide what to do with your boat, you have already lost, and there is probably no advice at that point that is going to help you.

It’s not like expecting people to prepare their boat for an asteroid strike. We get these hurricanes on a regular basis.

 

[backinblue]

There are many clueless boaters regardless of the season or the weather. However, I disagree that most don't care and hope for the best. If you think otherwise, what would you suggest for a plan of action when a storm is predicted to hit a well populated area in a few days with 10's of thousands of boats in the water at marinas?

 

[psneeld]

You cant wait for tbe last couple days in many places. Thats why many dont do much. They dont have the flexibility of time to move the necessary distances or pre staging to a good pivot point.

So for many without options and or skills is exactly what we see in the pictures of destruction.

My choice in Sandy was stay where some damage occurred, or move. I moved to a decent hurricane hole 2 days before about 30 miles away, ant it turned out to be about 10 miles inland of where the eye hit. No damage because I was in a very protected spot. I was also the only boat in South NJ to go there. A lot of others could but either misjudged Sandy or didnt care to move.

 

[backinblue]

Storm predictions and paths can change drastically from day to day, so many wait and see before taking action. Glad it worked out for you in hindsight, however, how many boats would you estimate are in the water in NJ and how many could safely fit in that hurricane hole? Unless you think that most boaters could have safely moved there to ride out the storm, how can you blame them for not doing so?

 

[mvweebles]

New thought: I wonder if anyone had moved their boat TO Legacy Harbour just prior to Ian's landfall... given the prediction aimed at Tampa, and given Legacy's decent track record over prior years. If so, I'd say it's an example of trying to do the right thing... that went south.

Almost...... This is the problem with hurricane game theory. A good friend has his large boat behind his house in Redington Beach (St Pete area). As Ian was starting to show it was a serious storm with eyes on his house, I asked if he was going to move his boat to safer waters. Recall on this forum (possibly this thread), there was chatter about the storm going north to Carabelle/Apalachicola. He would have had to depart no later than Monday as the seas would be too rough by Tuesday, preferably by Sunday. Had he moved his boat on Sunday, would have been south to Cayo Costa area which would have been really bad luck.

And the two days spent moving his boat would mean two days not preparing his house and vehicles, and family members who depend on him.

Hurricane strategies are much better in hindsight.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Peter once again think the only way to reliable lower your risk is to think seasonally. Period. If you are in a situation where that’s not feasible due to obligations to work or family maybe you should rethink your boating. Either plan to absorb what destruction may occur or decrease the value of assets at risk. If I lived in Florida I might keep a trawler in a different state and/or get by with a good center console with a decent cuddy I could trailer or securely store inside. I would not want to deal with the seasonal risk even if fully insured.
As regards Sandy know a few people who seasonally go up the Hudson and one couple who store up the Connecticut river. Sandy was a non issue for their boats. Houses a different matter as was their careers which disappeared. Their equity in their houses was gone as well. No market in the Atlantic City area.
Florida is peculiar. Elsewhere rivers are commonly surrounded by high banks. Florida is pretty flat. Going inland may not help you much.

 

[psneeld]

Storm predictions and paths can change drastically from day to day, so many wait and see before taking action. Glad it worked out for you in hindsight, however, how many boats would you estimate are in the water in NJ and how many could safely fit in that hurricane hole? Unless you think that most boaters could have safely moved there to ride out the storm, how can you blame them for not doing so?

First...I do not believe hurricane track prediction is that bad. 3-5 days not perfect but good, 3 days out very good. The media has said that for years now, it's the intensity forecast that is very hard and still far from good.

Second, thousands of boats were still in the water for Sandy....a hundred boats could have fit where I went, maybe more with proper rafting. The point was there were ZERO other boats except the dozen that stay here all the time. So my guess is that a lot of boats that coulda, woulda, shoulda didn't for all kinds of reasons...many of my boating friends attitude of..... it's on land (some washed off the stands and were damaged), tied up well in the slip but scratched up badly (it's OK it's insured), some with major canvas damage ( they wanted new canvas anyway), etc, etc

 

[backinblue]

PS, I don't disagree, but you still haven't said where all these thousands of boats should relocate to in a couple day's time. Many don't move because there is not a guarenteed safe place you can get to. What would happen if 10K boats showed up where you went? Kind of like trying to evacuate a major city. The roads can only hold so many, so is it smart to get in a car only to be straded on a road? Of course there were many thousands of boats in the water for Sandy. They can't magically transport to some safer place. I'm not arguing the point to take appropriate measures if possible. But if you look at all the boats in NJ, NY, CT, Long Island Sound, RI, etc where do you expect them to go even with 3 days notice? Sure, a handful can head up river and some can get hauled. But if every travel lift and yard worked 24x7, you could only haul a small fraction of those. Also, conventional wisdom is to not stay on your boat. I can't think of a place I could get to and know I could secure or dock my boat and leave it there for the storm. I also wonder what would insurance think if I did that vs. staying in my home port identified on my policy.

 

[psneeld]

You are right, no options so better to do nothing.

Actually I posted before most don'y have the time to move boats far enough, most are busy with hoses, businesses, parents houses, etc...etc...

Boats are insured...it's the best they can do (and I AM being serious...boats are way down the ladder on things to protect).

But..... THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT MANY MAKE OF WHY BOATS IN HURRUICANE AREAS SHOULD BEAR MOST OF THE COST.

 

[mvweebles]

..... Either plan to absorb what destruction may occur or decrease the value of assets at risk.....

That pretty well sums it up, either by intent or by lack of an alternative.

My part of Florida (St Pete area) has not seen a major hurricane since the 1930s. Obviously there's no reason it couldn't happen next week, but that's been the history. Vast majority of storms head north towards the panhandle, or the gulf coast up that way.

Over the last 30 years I've lived in San Francisco with its earthquake risk, mountains of Colorado with its fire risk, and Florida with its hurricane risk. I guess I could manage some of the risk by not returning to San Francisco (don't intend yo anyway) and living in a motorhome that can be easily relocated out of the path of hurricane and fire.

Or I can accept the risk, which I do. I don't seek out risk, but I am not going to be so averse that I create a sterile walled garden cloister either. Florida has some great weather. And it's great to be on a boat here. Center consoles are fine, but not analogous.

Peter

 

[Blissboat]

Insurance or no insurance, I have never owned a boat that I cared so little for as to leave it unattended / unprotected. More than once, I have driven hundreds of miles, sometimes through the night, to get to my boat and do my best to either secure it against threatening weather or move it to a safer location. Almost every other boater I've ever known has had the same protective attitude toward his / her boats. The few who were exceptions did not last long in boating.

My philosophy is that every boat needs a "boat husband," who will take care of it no matter what. If we take care of our boats, they will take care of us. When you can no longer keep up your end of that bargain, it's time to make a change.

 

[backinblue]

Well if there are no good options, you really have no choice is the point I am trying to make. Some may try to haul or move or just button things up and hope for the best. There is no excuse for leaving up canvas and sails, etc.

I think that some boaters in higher risk areas already do pay more for instance FL vs. MI. But storms can hit anywhere from FL to Canada. Granted FL is more likely than Canada but anywhere on the East Coast is vulnerable. Homes in flood zones pay more homeowners insurance. But the point of insurance is that everybody pays into a pool of money to help those who need it and hope you never do. I wouldn't take the stance that I won't likely ever suffer from storm damage so therefore I shouldn't be charged for that protection. It's like someone with no children paying taxes that go towards education. The bigger picture is better because of it.

 

[mvweebles]

PS, I don't disagree, but you still haven't said where all these thousands of boats should relocate to in a couple day's time. Many don't move because there is not a guarenteed safe place you can get to.

A couple years ago, before the pandemic, I approached a friend about buying a lot on the Okeechobee (locks on both ends) to use as a hurricane hole. Put in a decent dock, maybe a cinder block garage for storage, enough electricity to run a refrigerator. Grown up version of a tree house.

Any takers?

Peter

 

[backinblue]

Insurance or no insurance, I have never owned a boat that I cared so little for as to leave it unattended / unprotected. More than once, I have driven hundreds of miles, sometimes through the night, to get to my boat and do my best to either secure it against threatening weather or move it to a safer location. Almost every other boater I've ever known has had the same protective attitude toward his / her boats. The few who were exceptions did not last long in boating.

My philosophy is that every boat needs a "boat husband," who will take care of it no matter what. If we take care of our boats, they will take care of us. When you can no longer keep up your end of that bargain, it's time to make a change.

I do the same thing with my house and boat whenever severe storms are predicted. Take precautions and secure things as best as you can. However, some here think that is pointless and you need to have an evacuation plan or hurricane hole identified. I don't disagree that it's a great idea, but it's just not feasible for the majority of the boating population. Not because they don't care, but those places just don't exist to secure everyone's boat. I can picture a log jam of boats trying to go up river with a storm approaching. Just not possible if all boaters decided to do that.

 

[Group9]

There are many clueless boaters regardless of the season or the weather. However, I disagree that most don't care and hope for the best. If you think otherwise, what would you suggest for a plan of action when a storm is predicted to hit a well populated area in a few days with 10's of thousands of boats in the water at marinas?

Do what I do. I already have a place scoped out to take my boat every hurricane. And, I usually put it there at the first chance I could be hit by a hurricane, (I've probably put it there ten times in the last five years, and only actually been hit with a hurricane twice) to make sure no beats me to it. (That's what being inside the cone means on the NHC site, that you could be hit). But, I have a second place and a third place scoped out, in case someone ever does beat me to it.

Not feeling like doing that, is not the same as not being able to do that.

 

[backinblue]

Do what I do. I already have a place scoped out to take my boat every hurricane. And, I usually put it there at the first chance I could be hit by a hurricane, to make sure no beats me to it. But, I have a second place and a third place scoped out, in case someone ever does beat me to it.

Not feeling like doing that, is not the same as not being able to do that.

And if every boater did that, how well would your plan work then? Again, not a bad idea, but doesn't work for the quantities of boats in the water.

 

[Group9]

And if every boater did that, how well would your plan work then? Again, not a bad idea, but doesn't work for the quantities of boats in the water.

Well, the people who prepare their boats are always going to say it's not that hard. And, the people who don't prepare their boats are always going to say it was too hard.

That's probably true of a lot of things in life. What's the old Chinese saying? "Man saying thing cannot be done, should not interfere with man doing that thing."

And, why would anyone put their boat in a hurricane zone, during hurricane season, with absolutely no idea of what they will do if there is a major hurricane? You appear to think that's reasonable and makes sense. But, I don't.

 

[O C Diver]

A couple years ago, before the pandemic, I approached a friend about buying a lot on the Okeechobee (locks on both ends) to use as a hurricane hole. Put in a decent dock, maybe a cinder block garage for storage, enough electricity to run a refrigerator. Grown up version of a tree house.

Any takers?

Peter

Before I would do that, I'd get a Hurricane Club membership with River Forest (either in Labelle or Stuart). Annual fee is $3,500 for my boat and around $600 to haulout, block, and put overboard.

https://riverforestyc.com/service/hurricane-club/

Ted

 

[Simi 60]

There are many clueless boaters regardless of the season or the weather. However, I disagree that most don't care and hope for the best. If you think otherwise, what would you suggest for a plan of action when a storm is predicted to hit a well populated area in a few days with 10's of thousands of boats in the water at marinas?

From cruisers forum

Originally Posted by Benz
I used to live aboard in Ft. Myers, and can testify that there is plenty of room for every boat there to go up past the first lock and tie up between there and lake Okeechobee along the banks of the canals. Surely the Army Corps would allow people to set rond anchors in the banks and raft up to each other, packing in as tight as necessary. It would require good will and teamwork, and people who cared enough for their boats to take the time, but it would save a lot of boat carnage.
Those who thought far enough ahead could get hauled at Glades Boat Storage (if it's still there)--there's ways to get your boat out of the way of storm surge, if you have a little initiative.
Also second the poster who has no use for people who leave their boat unattended in Florida during hurricane season. Dear me, why bother having a boat at all?

living on the other side of the world I don't know the area at all but looking at satellite views it's what I would have done here, but not the bolded bit.
That should easily have been done with a couple of days notice.

Get up river into an offshoot away from storm surge
Get away from hard concrete
Get away from other boats

It always seems to be the marinas that cop the most damage
And they have those 3 things

10's of thousands of boats in the water at marinas?

Just looked at maps and marinas in Fort Myers
10's of thousands of boats?
I sure couldn't see anything like those numbers