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09-03-2021, 09:06 PM
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#21
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Guru
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
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Wifey B: I appreciate all bucketboy's posting. I'm going to incorporate it and his website and everything else into a book of making the worst out of a bad situation. Sort of the opposite of Ray Stevens':
Thought initially I'd need more cases for my book but as he spends more and more money pursuing a hopeless cause and goes without boating for months, then years, I think his case will provide enough material. I would ask the following two questions seriously of him and he's welcome to treat them as rhetorical and answer only to himself.
1. Financially. Are the low odds and low potential possible winnings worth all the expenditures in trying to get there. This makes the lottery look like a sure thing. It's like investing (my numbers here but please OP insert your own) $50,000 on a 1 in 50 chance you'll win $200,000.
2. Emotionally. Is this wild fight worth it to you? I don't know. Maybe a matter of principle to you? If something is a major matter of principle to me, then the fight for it energizes me and is all worthwhile. Heck, my Don Quixotic hubby perhaps even more so. However, I might do so with less control than him and those things I'd invest my heart and soul in are not boats or warranties.
You called my hubby Dr. Phil. I'm not playing Dr. Phil but simply asking that you ask yourself those two questions to determine how long you'll continue this fight.
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09-03-2021, 09:36 PM
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#22
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Guru
City: Burien
Vessel Name: Intrepid
Vessel Model: North Pacific/ NP-45 Hull 10
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 684
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One final question for all. I have active fin stabilizers on there way and expect to get next week. I will need to drill a couple 6 inch holes in the boat for the install. Am i going to send the two cores to the lab?
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09-03-2021, 10:04 PM
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#23
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Guru
City: coos bay
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jungpeter
Hi Bucketlist1.
OK, you had a lab perform mechanical testing of two (2) samples of material, taken from an undocumented location of a 2018 Ranger 27 hull. The results of which are posted.
Some observations from an advanced-degreed professional mechanical engineer (me), with 45 years in the field of design, development, manufacturer, test, evaluation, use, blah blah blah of various fiber reinforced composite materials in marine use:
a. A sample size of two (2) is WAY fewer than necessary to develop a sound conclusion of the mechanical properties of this hull. Quality assurance practices require orders of magnitude more samples than you have presented to reach conclusions to the overall makeup of a composite part.
b. No information is presented on the location from which these samples were extracted. Doing mechanical testing on failed composites will inevitably yield sub-standard results. Should these samples have been extracted from a damaged portion of this hull, these tests are simply invalid to form any conclusions of the soundness of the laminate.
c. American Society for Testing Materials (ASTM) has developed standard coupon size for composites for a good reason. Substandard coupons (such as the two you submitted for testing) generate abnormal stress distributions within the tensile testing machine grips that skew results unacceptably. At least the picture of the one post-failure sample you provided appears to have failed in the necked-down region as expected. Pretty darn close to the grip end, however. Again, no reasonable conclusions can be extracted from the tensile tests, due to these anomalies.
d. Voids appear in the matrix upon examination under a scanning electron microscope (SEM). Given that I do not know the exact method of manufacture by Ranger Tug, but can guess from decades of composite manufacturing experience, I suggest there are voids in ALL fiberglass reinforced composite materials typically used in mass produced recreational boat hull materials, similar to those you report. I do not explicitly know the quantity, size, and sample distribution of voids that is the norm for the industry, nor the norm for Ranger Tug. Thus your results are simply your results of a VERY limited sample. Again, no reasonable conclusions can be extracted from these SEM images.
e. Laboratories are tasked to TEST materials, not form conclusions. That's for the professional engineers charged with evaluating the test results. Thus, your lab's "observation" (image 5) that your sample results are "...below the values reported" is improper. In particular, the reference [1] cited in your report could not be found in the information you provided. However, the lab makes reference to vacuum pressure during manufacturing of their referenced material values. But there's no indication that Ranger Tug uses vacuum in their manufacturing process. This is an improper observation (apples to oranges). The values this lab reported for your samples are simply what they are and cannot be used to conclude you particular samples are substandard.
Sorry to go on so long. Yes, your posting was interesting. But little else. If you're seeking affirmation that your particular boat has latent defects caused by manufacturing errors, you won't get them from me. It's unclear of your agenda from this posting, but I am very, very careful of putting into the public domain (i.e. this forum) information that is potentially damaging to others. Libel comes to mind.
Regards,
Pete
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Thanks for taking the time write up your evaluation of the testing done. Gives us a better understanding of the results.
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09-03-2021, 10:34 PM
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#24
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Guru
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magna 6882
One final question for all. I have active fin stabilizers on there way and expect to get next week. I will need to drill a couple 6 inch holes in the boat for the install. Am i going to send the two cores to the lab?
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Wifey B: Need to drill 4 holes. 2 where you want them and two more 6 feet forward, then send cores for analysis and hold up on all activity until you have the results.
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09-03-2021, 10:58 PM
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#25
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Guru
City: Burien
Vessel Name: Intrepid
Vessel Model: North Pacific/ NP-45 Hull 10
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 684
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09-04-2021, 05:46 AM
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#26
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Guru
City: Aventura FL
Vessel Name: Kinja
Vessel Model: American Tug 34 #116 2008
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 10,595
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I am going to disappear. Call me if there is an exciting conclusion.
Here, take my lance. I am too old to lift it.
Best of luck.
__________________
Two days out the hospital after a week in the hospital because of a significant heart attack.
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09-04-2021, 06:25 AM
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#27
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Veteran Member
City: Dorchester
Vessel Name: Lemon-Aid
Vessel Model: Ranger Tug R-27
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 84
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If there is one thing to remember from this ..... 6.3 mm ( that's less than 1/4 '' ) 1 1/2 '' to port side of keel . Builders double up ( overlap ) the fiberglass in the center .
6.3 mm ..... would you want that thickness on your 27 ft hull ? Remember this is not epoxy resin , carbon fiber or high end composites . Have a good long weekend .
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09-04-2021, 06:40 AM
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#28
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Veteran Member
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Barbara Ann
Vessel Model: Ranger Tug R31-S
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucketlist1
If there is one thing to remember from this ..... 6.3 mm ( that's less than 1/4 '' ) 1 1/2 '' to port side of keel . Builders double up ( overlap ) the fiberglass in the center .
6.3 mm ..... would you want that thickness on your 27 ft hull ? Remember this is not epoxy resin , carbon fiber or high end composites . Have a good long weekend .
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Another thing to remember is to have a used boat surveyed BEFORE you close the sale. That's the time to find hidden damage.
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09-04-2021, 07:06 AM
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#29
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Guru
City: Here and there
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445
Thanks for taking the time write up your evaluation of the testing done. Gives us a better understanding of the results.
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I agree. And, I thought posts #2-6 offered a lot of relevant observation.
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09-04-2021, 10:19 AM
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#30
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Guru
City: Palm Coast, FL
Vessel Name: Coquina
Vessel Model: Lagoon 380
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucketlist1
If there is one thing to remember from this ..... 6.3 mm ( that's less than 1/4 '' ) 1 1/2 '' to port side of keel . Builders double up ( overlap ) the fiberglass in the center .
6.3 mm ..... would you want that thickness on your 27 ft hull ? Remember this is not epoxy resin , carbon fiber or high end composites . Have a good long weekend .
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U would be shocked at the typical sailcat thickness below waterline. Fast power boats need more. But its more complex than that, due to stringer design and more…
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09-04-2021, 01:53 PM
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#31
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Guru
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
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20' Lake and Bay Flats boat. With 250 hp runs around 65 mph, but change to 250XS Mercury with speedmaster lower unit and owner I know hit 92 mph. Guy ran the Back Country which is same basic hull over 100 mph. How thick do you think those hulls are?
Word of advice. Don't drop them. Don't run into things. Be prepared to patch if you didn't heed advice.
Boat we're on right now doesn't have a thick hull. It's modern composites. Lightweight is key. It also is on a Ranger.
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09-04-2021, 04:01 PM
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#32
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Guru
City: Anacortes
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 588
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Seems like DDW was the first to get it right. You've now wasted more time and money on a lab report that tells you nothing. Just quit trying to find someone else to blame, accept the responsibility that you made a mistake by not having the boat surveyed or at least inspected at purchase and just have it repaired and use it.
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09-04-2021, 04:31 PM
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#33
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Guru
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean9c
Seems like DDW was the first to get it right. You've now wasted more time and money on a lab report that tells you nothing. Just quit trying to find someone else to blame, accept the responsibility that you made a mistake by not having the boat surveyed or at least inspected at purchase and just have it repaired and use it.
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All he has is assumptions and allegations. Doesn't even have any form of lawsuit. Wouldn't even know who to sue. Now, I wouldn't be surprised to see him sue..anyone can sue about anything.
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09-04-2021, 04:35 PM
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#34
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Guru
City: coos bay
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean9c
Seems like DDW was the first to get it right. You've now wasted more time and money on a lab report that tells you nothing. Just quit trying to find someone else to blame, accept the responsibility that you made a mistake by not having the boat surveyed or at least inspected at purchase and just have it repaired and use it.
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Unfortunately in todays me world the idea is to make someone else pay as it can never be a me at fault.
Not saying that is the case here but I have been sued and lost by a guy that decided to drive accross the road in front of me and i hit him. I could not move and had no time to stop because there was a car going fast on my left that also ended up in the wreck. P{olice arrived and ticketed the driver of the vehicle that pulled into my path for no license no insurance and violantion of my right of way. A couple of weeks goes by and i get a letter sayng he was sueing for damages. Well to make a long story short i went to court and the lady that checked me in asked a couple of questions which i answered and she said i should counter sue. I said no way the court can ever find me at fault i don't wish to cause the old guy any more trouble than he already has. She insisted even saying she would file the papers all i needed was to sign my consent so i relented and signed. Well in court thew guy sueing me was way late and when he arrived the judge asked why he was late and he said he had several cars all needing repaired and had trouble finding one that would start. She asked him if he drove himself to court without a drivers license and he said yes. I thought to myself what a waste of resources this is an open and shut case. Well the judge made me resposible for his damages. The news shocked me when i recieved the letter and the amount i had to pay. Well within a couple of days of that ;letter i recieved another letter in which her decision was reversed and i was not responsible. That court clerk saved me. Glad she was so insistant on getting my signature.
The point here is that you can never tell what willl happen in court aND IF YOU SUE ENOUGH EVENTUALLY YOU WILL GET A WINDFALL Sorry for cap lock.
Almost two years later i get a letter from a lawyer inquiring about the accident above and asking what my losses were. He said he washandling the will as xx had passed away leaving a considerable estate which could not be distributed untill my counter suit in the above accident was cleared. I told him the cost of my vehicle repairs and the two days wages lost and recieved a check within a month.
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09-05-2021, 06:20 PM
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#35
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Guru
City: Southwest MI
Vessel Name: Sobelle
Vessel Model: C-Dory 22 Cruiser
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,229
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With a scanning electron microscope you can find voids in pretty much everything.
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09-05-2021, 06:24 PM
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#36
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Guru
City: coos bay
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssobol
With a scanning electron microscope you can find voids in pretty much everything.
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chuckle.... thanks for the laugh. Your absolutely correct.
hummmm....except for my wife head. If used on her it would not find any voids cause there is nothing there to have any voids
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09-05-2021, 06:37 PM
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#37
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Guru
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445
chuckle.... thanks for the laugh. Your absolutely correct.
hummmm....except for my wife head. If used on her it would not find any voids cause there is nothing there to have any voids
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And you think something like that is ever humorous or appropriate to say?
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09-10-2021, 12:59 PM
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#38
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Guru
City: Dewatto
Vessel Name: CHiTON
Vessel Model: Tung Hwa Clipper 30
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB
Word of advice. Don't drop them. Don't run into things
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Naval architect friend once told me that his sailing cats aren't designed to hit anything harder than water. I always keep that in mind as it is probably true of lots of boats.
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Marco Flamingo
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09-10-2021, 01:19 PM
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#39
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Guru
City: Looking
Vessel Name: --
Vessel Model: Between boats
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,190
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Profile of our hull glass below the waterline (bottom, solid glass) and deckhouse sides (top, honycomb).
That's how a 37ft boat can weigh 50,000lbs.
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09-10-2021, 02:33 PM
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#40
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Guru
City: Great Lakes
Vessel Model: OA 440
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucketlist1
If there is one thing to remember from this ..... 6.3 mm ( that's less than 1/4 '' ) 1 1/2 '' to port side of keel . Builders double up ( overlap ) the fiberglass in the center .
6.3 mm ..... would you want that thickness on your 27 ft hull ? Remember this is not epoxy resin , carbon fiber or high end composites . Have a good long weekend .
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BINGO! That's the lesson here. These are fragile boats of average build quality at best. You've done the boating community a service by pointing it out. 1/4" hull thickness on a boat this size is just plain disturbing.
I'm quite sure the boat was damaged during routine ground handling. In my sixteen years of assisting/supervising in the twice annual boat haul evolutions for our boat I am absolutely convinced that yard personal as a group don't have a clue regarding structural issues or weaknesses in various designs, and many of them don't give a hoot. Hydraulic pad lift trailers in particular are a menace in the wrong hands and clearly dangerous for a super thin hull like this one. If a given hull design demands special handling by yard personnel, then the manufacturer has a responsibility to make that clear to owners and yard personnel alike. A 1/4" hull is looking for trouble in the ground handling arena.
A recent post showed a thick cored hull section. The same problem exists with improper ground handling...pad lift hydraulic trailers in particular. I've alerted ABYC regarding this looming menace and suggested that they require manufacturers of cored hulls to issue specialized ground handling instructions. They're negligent if they haven't. If you have a boat with a cored hull and it's been on a pad lift hydraulic trailer, odds are high that the core material has local crush damage...you just don't know it yet.
Thank you bucketlist1.
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