How We Ended Up Buying a New Boat

[backinblue]

I just understand his selection to be a done deal, although not completely sure of whether he's actually ordered the boat. I was proceeding on the basis he has.

I agree on the GB. Even comparing to a 54' would be something, but then we can't access all the available boats. That's why selection can become an overwhelming process and people can get so bogged down in it, they become paralyzed.

It's funny that our first coastal boat was a Riva and we made the decision quickly and didn't really consider a lot of other boats as weren't many that similar. We thought of Pershing but didn't like surface drive. Sunseeker was too slow for us (yes get ready for irony later). We love Riva and still have it.

But the one boat, we couldn't decide on was what boat to get for the loop. This went on for a long time until we hit a critical point if we were actually going to do the loop. I had to have the perfect boat and it doesn't exist, of course. But wanted capacity for at least 6, water draft 5' or less, air draft 19' or less, cruise speed at least 26-28 knots but preferred more, upper galley, flybridge, dual helm, 60' max size. This took years. First choice was 60' Hatteras but no lower helm eliminated an otherwise perfect choice. Sunseeker Manhattan 63 eliminated by lower galley. Grand Banks had models of interest but I worried about the company and as it turns out when they got their act together the boats we would have considered were discontinued. Fleming was a consideration but too slow. We considered custom through a SF builder or a redesign and build of a Pacific Mariner 65. We rejected Princess over quality and the fact they use pods in that size. Almost went for a Sea Ray 650 L Fly but then quality issues scared us away. Finally Sunseeker added a Manhattan 65, identical to the 63 but galley down and that's the route we went. It really was great but for some reason I never loved that boat like our others. Did I sabotage myself in the process? Surely there was something else out there.

Well, we sold that boat after a couple of years. Never even made it home but worked out well. But that leaves us now wanting to do the loop again and choosing a boat again. I'm saying must order by February 28, 2022. Has anything changed? Well, leader in clubhouse is now Sunseeker Manhattan 68. It essentially replaced the 66 which replaced the 65 and 63 and in total only 3" difference in size. I'm still not in love with it but know it would do well. Should we consider GB 60 or Palm Beach 65? They make no use of the bow. What about reconsidering Fleming. What about a catamaran? Thought about Coastal Craft 65 but they discontinued it. Riva has a model but draft too much and flybridge too small. We will make a choice by February but will it be like last time and I'll like it but never love it? Such a stupid problem for me to agonize over when any and all would be fine and I'm just being a greedy perfectionist of some type. So, he made a decision, bought a boat, I applaud and not going to criticize his choice. It will work fine for his desired use. Maybe I'll start another thread and encourage all to jump on and help and criticize me on the next loop boat.

Again I would say that just because a decision has been finalized, doesn't mean that people don't have questions about the decision. That doesn't necessarily mean criticism of his choice.

 

[BandB]

Again I would say that just because a decision has been finalized, doesn't mean that people don't have questions about the decision. That doesn't necessarily mean criticism of his choice.

Questions are always reasonable I guess. Helps us learn.

 

[Simi 60]

. Should we consider GB 60 or Palm Beach 65? They make no use of the bow. What about reconsidering Fleming. What about a catamaran? Thought about Coastal Craft 65 but they discontinued it. Riva has a model but draft too much and flybridge too small..

If you have the coin for those choices I would be getting a custom built aluminium catamaran myself
Easy choice.

Or a good 2nd hand one

I keep going back to Sher Khan

http://www.sherkhan.com.au/

 

[OldDan1943]

I keep going back to Sher Khan

Sher Khan

and just how much does this little piece of heaven cost?

 

[Simi 60]

and just how much does this little piece of heaven cost?

Considerably less than a GB 60, 65 ft palm beach or coastal craft 65

 

[RedRascal]

...Fleming is a faster boat, was quite well appointed and about half the cost of we will ultimately pay for our current choice. But, the financial i mentioned above precluded it being a right choice. Also, it was a bit too big for us two to handle.

hrk, thanks for sharing about your process to narrow down a boat. Regarding the Fleming did you consider the 58 model? That seems close to what you guys were looking for. I am curious about the features or characteristics where you found the Krogen to outshined the Fleming. Were Flemings just not that appealing to you so you ruled them out early? Congrats on pulling the trigger and getting a build going so you can get out there cruising.

 

[hrk]

That is a very good point about the naming ofthe boat. When time comes, i will certanky think of that.

OP, so to get back on track and comment on your 2 statements above:

You need to assess what your budget is for hiring an advisor/surveyor for a new construction and whether it will bring real value. Krogens have been produced in large numbers over many years in sizes larger and smaller than yours. Not exactly a one-off from a small yard. You would find your time very well spent by getting in touch with owners over the last few years who have taken delivery of new KKs and getting their feedback on issues discovered during build and commissioning; issues uncovered in the first year; things they would have done differently. This could run the whole gamut from systems to layout to dividers in drawers and cabinets.

Ship's names. Cute, fun, impossible to understand over a radio names are fine for a day boat. But when you start traveling through multiple countries then your ship's name, home port and call sign take on more significance. A boat may be a personal item, but ideally keep it short, sweet and easy to understand for those whose English may not be very good.

 

[hrk]

Thanks, bandb.
You are making some excellent points. I will certainly find my rythmn and love and will farm out other stuff as start to cruise. I am certain that bottom cleanin is one i will not be enjoying. Lets see how it goes.

Btw: i have chose the boat but it s far from a done deal. Never is until i sign a contract and hand over money,! But, even if i had already done that, i am ok to hear criticism of my thought process in buying a new boat or the choice we made.

I think your decision on 60' was well thought out and you should ignore any distractors. You reached that point logically and thoughtfully. I'd also toss this to the distractors. Once one says they've chosen and are buying a particular boat, they're no longer asking for advice on what boat to buy.

Now long before finding you need a captain, you may well find other needs, some of which are easy to fill. Handling and docking a 60' boat is no more difficult than a 35' boat and sometimes easier. Cleaning and maintaining are more difficult. However, at the vast majority of marinas there is someone available for a small price to wash down the boat for you, even those to do the interior and, of course, the bottom.

Similarly, you decide what split on DIY vs. Paid is right for you on other maintenance. If you want an excellent lesson, read the early days of Wayfarer's journey on here as he went from overwhelmed by pressure to do it all himself to availing himself of help and becoming one of the happiest cruisers here.

You may also find certain things you really enjoy and others you don't. We knew a guy who used a captain to run the boat but at the end of the day he'd always jump in and chamois the boat himself as it was washed down. He absolutely loved doing that and he also loved waxing his own boat, just as he loved doing his car. Seeing it clean, glowing, and knowing he did that was just a certain satisfaction for him. For most, it would be the first thing they'd farm out. Some love to "tinker" with engines and others best never go near them. I'm very non-mechanical but filters are something I don't mind being diligent over. I am fanatical over checking fuel filters and checking watermaker filters and membranes.

Your thoughts on one day hiring a captain describe a route I've known many to take as they age. Others hire mates to help them. Some hire stews because they're tired of housekeeping. Others hire chefs because they want to eat better. You hire according to needs and desires. Let's assume that at each ten year threshold one will have 20% less energy and physical capability. Well, then you eliminate the 20% you'll miss least. And then if at some point, boating is just too much or the thrill is gone or it scares you or anything else happen, then you move on to another avocation.

Part of that is just being well rounded too. We love boating. We average around 280 days a year of boating. However, if boating was ruled out for some reason or reduced, there are so many things in life we love.

For some, it's a challenge, they haven't developed other loves. We're very close to a married couple of captains who have just turned 64 and 61 and are in the process of cutting back on work. They love to fish and own their own SF but love to do so less frequently. The mostly love when they take 2 or 3 younger girls with them who love fishing and they get to enjoy seeing them do so but the younger girls also clean the boat and keep it immaculate. They thought about buying a home in the mountains and took a vacation there and quickly realized they loved the vacation but didn't want to live away from the coast even part time. They have discovered some new loves. Sitting on the patio drinking coffee in the mornings with their best friends and then just visiting places around town that interest them. Also, as they were always on the water, they never did any gardening but as their friends do they like to do a little themselves and love to go to garden shows and stores as outings. And before you think they're sitting around doing nothing, they love to walk every afternoon with their friends.

We hope to boat forever, but we know it will change and we're not worried about what to do if we have to boat less. There will even be new generations to observe and enjoy, young people becoming adults and then the adults having their children.

We will all age differently but the ability to physically do less doesn't have to eliminate boating. You keep thinking things through as logically as you did your boat choice, and you'll continue to enjoy boating.

 

[OldDan1943]

https://www.facebook.com/commerce/listing/1053094198878642/?media_id=4&ref=share_attachment

Try this. "Project" is mentioned, I have no idea what needs attention.

 

[bowball]

hrk, thanks for sharing about your process to narrow down a boat. Regarding the Fleming did you consider the 58 model? That seems close to what you guys were looking for. I am curious about the features or characteristics where you found the Krogen to outshined the Fleming. Were Flemings just not that appealing to you so you ruled them out early? Congrats on pulling the trigger and getting a build going so you can get out there cruising.

The Fleming 58 is relatively new and I would guess more expensive, even used. While the F58 is much beamier than the F55, it is still 2' less beamy than the description of the Kroger Open 60. And has 400hp MAN's not 200 hp JD's.

It seems the Krogen also has a crew quarter, which you don't get in Fleming until the F78. And they say "less than 6' draft" (the Fleming is 5') and looks taller, so my guess is that its a much bigger boat inside and has more of a stand up engine room. All appealing.

So it was my guess a used F55 he was comparing it too, which itself would probably be 3' less beam. So an entirely different boat.

I personally prefer the finish of the Fleming, but its hard to argue with the greater volume of the KK.

 

[hrk]

Fleming was close but

Actually, I liked Fleming 58 as much as what we chose finally. And, if for some reason our ordering KK 60 Open does not come through, i will look at that one again. KK 60 open is full displacement, slower than Fleming, which semi displacement. Build quality seemed similarly very good. Vendor reputations equally good. I remember internal space usage, etc also quite good. One thing i remember is that Fleming 58 new costs considerably more and could not find used Fleming 58 in USA to look at. May be we did not look hard enough.
One thing i liked is that Fleming builds bigger size boats over all so may be they are better builder as one goes for upper end of boat sizes.

Do you own Fleming? I would like to hear of yours or other owners of Fleming about what they like about their boats.

hrk, thanks for sharing about your process to narrow down a boat. Regarding the Fleming did you consider the 58 model? That seems close to what you guys were looking for. I am curious about the features or characteristics where you found the Krogen to outshined the Fleming. Were Flemings just not that appealing to you so you ruled them out early? Congrats on pulling the trigger and getting a build going so you can get out there cruising.

 

[hrk]

Once we have ordered a boat, i will start a new thread in this forum about how build process is going. Meanwhile, bear with me. I will continue with this thread even though it is meandering around - just the way i liked sailing our boat in Maine. Wake up in morning, look at weather, wind pattern and look at most deserted harbor we reach before 4 pm! Open a bottle of wine, cook and enjoy sunsets!

 

[RedRascal]

Do you own Fleming? I would like to hear of yours or other owners of Fleming about what they like about their boats.

I do not own one. I've been able to tour a 55 and 65 at a prior boat show and it's likely a 58 without the mid-ship master will be on display at the Seattle boat show in February. The 58 with the mid-ship master appeals to me in addition to a taller engine room. I have no clue how Fleming came up with their model numbers, the 58 is more like a 65'. When I was out looking at a boat this weekend there was a Fleming 55 and Nordhavn 57 parked side by side. They were similar in size from the outside and I thought the Nordy would have been bigger. Yes Flemings go for top dollar however since they are made in Taiwan at least you don't get hit with the China tariffs. Some of the Nordies get hit with that which bumps up the the cost roughly few hundred thousand USD depending on the model. I don't know much about Krogen's so your thread is of interest to me. Also interesting to learn about features or particular boat characteristics that are not obvious.

 

[Group9]

Only thing that stopped us form buying a brand new boat, was not having enough money.

If we had, then we would have.

 

[bowball]

“ I have no clue how Fleming came up with their model numbers, the 58 is more like a 65'. ”

I believe the naming of the Fleming undoubtedly started with the early F55, where the LOA was 55’10”. But when the swim deck and bow roller were included it was actually 60’9”.

So when the F65 came out next it’s total LOA was 70’10” including the additions. And the F58 is 65’9”.

So it’s reasonably consistent, but based on an old method. Maybe if they started naming them today from a clean slate they would be the F60, F65 and F70

The F58 isn’t that near to the size of the 65 though.
Displacements (heavy) are 80,000 105,000 and 124,000 for the F55 F58 and F65 respectively.

The 58 though is a great compromise as it is much beamier than the 55, and beamier for a greater percentage of the hull length.

Hope this helps.

 

[BandB]

“ I have no clue how Fleming came up with their model numbers, the 58 is more like a 65'. ”

I believe the naming of the Fleming undoubtedly started with the early F55, where the LOA was 55’10”. But when the swim deck and bow roller were included it was actually 60’9”.

So when the F65 came out next it’s total LOA was 70’10” including the additions. And the F58 is 65’9”.

So it’s reasonably consistent, but based on an old method. Maybe if they started naming them today from a clean slate they would be the F60, F65 and F70

The F58 isn’t that near to the size of the 65 though.
Displacements (heavy) are 80,000 105,000 and 124,000 for the F55 F58 and F65 respectively.

The 58 though is a great compromise as it is much beamier than the 55, and beamier for a greater percentage of the hull length.

Hope this helps.

The 58 is definitely closer in size to the 65 than it is to the 55. One of the big demands that is fulfilled in one option of the 58 is offering a full beam stateroom. The 55 was often criticized over the master stateroom being in the bow.

 

[bowball]

The 58 is definitely closer in size to the 65 than it is to the 55. One of the big demands that is fulfilled in one option of the 58 is offering a full beam stateroom. The 55 was often criticized over the master stateroom being in the bow.

Definitely true by displacement and interior volume and price . Not by length which is how they are named which was the question . Friends have the 65 and 78, so I’ve seen them all together too. The 55 is absolutely the baby! Waiting to see the new 85 which will dwarf them all - but too big for my taste (not to mention budget!)

I have spent many nights in the forward cabins and they are perfectly nice. We aren’t sleeping at night underway in the ocean so no motion concerns. No hard chine for noise at anchor. If I was to pick a new one it would be the 65 which has the forward master. The 78 has the midship master, but I used the forward as a guest.

Here’s a nice brochure I found.

https://www.flemingyachts.com/Our-Brochure

 

[BandB]

Definitely true by displacement and interior volume and price . Not by length which is how they are named which was the question .

Closer even by length. LOA is 60'9", 65'9", 70'10" which makes it equal distant, well 1" closer to 55. But by LWL is 50'10", 56'8", 61'11" so on that 7" closer to the 65.

Point is by the naming they make you think the 58 is just a small step up from the 55 and about 30% from it toward the 65. In reality, looking at all measurements, you come more toward the 58 being a step up 55%.

LOA 50%
LWL 52%
Displacement 58%

Very deceptive labelling but then I'm use to Sunseeker where the 68 is basically the same as the 66 which was slight shorter than the 65 which was the same as the 63.

58 also standard with the same MAN 800 engines as the 65 while the 55 has Cummins 500's standard. I have no idea the strategy that made them call it a 58 instead of perhaps a 60.

 

[FoxtrotCharlie]

I don't care how they name them - still my dream boat. I particularly love the 58'.

 

[socalrider]

I'm a humble man & would be happy with the lowly 55

 

[backinblue]

I'm a humble man & would be happy with the lowly 55

LOL, poor you if you had to live with a 55. Hang your head in shame!

 

[socalrider]

LOL, poor you if you had to live with a 55. Hang your head in shame!

They'd stick me in the back of the marina for sure...

 

[Art]

They'd stick me in the back of the marina for sure...

You could put a couple hopped-up 750 hp. 454 ci gassers in my Tolly and use it as a tow behind runabout! She'd scoot around at some 50 mph for ya!

 

[bowball]

Closer even by length. LOA is 60'9", 65'9", 70'10" which makes it equal distant, well 1" closer to 55. But by LWL is 50'10", 56'8", 61'11" so on that 7" closer to the 65.

Point is by the naming they make you think the 58 is just a small step up from the 55 and about 30% from it toward the 65. In reality, looking at all measurements, you come more toward the 58 being a step up 55%.

LOA 50%
LWL 52%
Displacement 58%

Very deceptive labelling but then I'm use to Sunseeker where the 68 is basically the same as the 66 which was slight shorter than the 65 which was the same as the 63.

58 also standard with the same MAN 800 engines as the 65 while the 55 has Cummins 500's standard. I have no idea the strategy that made them call it a 58 instead of perhaps a 60.

Well, Fleming has added a 60 model now.

https://www.flemingyachtseurope.com/meet-the-range/fleming-58-60/

The website is short of details but it is built on the 58 hull and adds a bustle to extend it some. Allows for a built in bench seating on the aft deck with table, and a crew bunk in the lazerette area accessed via a hatch, apparently desired in Europe where they take a crew member along.

Still need to win the lottery though…

 

[BandB]

Well, Fleming has added a 60 model now.

https://www.flemingyachtseurope.com/meet-the-range/fleming-58-60/

The website is short of details but it is built on the 58 hull and adds a bustle to extend it some. Allows for a built in bench seating on the aft deck with table, and a crew bunk in the lazerette area accessed via a hatch, apparently desired in Europe where they take a crew member along.

Still need to win the lottery though…

Odd too that the 60 is not mentioned anywhere on their corporate website, just on the European site.

 

[OldDan1943]

Odd too that the 60 is not mentioned anywhere on their corporate website, just on the European site.

I have come to the conclusion, boat builders can measure OAL 2 or 3 different ways....

 

[BandB]

I have come to the conclusion, boat builders can measure OAL 2 or 3 different ways....

Actually, they cannot. It is from the furthest point forward to the furthest back and measured in a straight line. Now, it has nothing at all to do with nomenclature and numbers they use for labelling on naming. It's a very definitive number as is LWL and LOH or LOD.

 

[Art]

Actually, they cannot. It is from the furthest point forward to the furthest back and measured in a straight line. Now, it has nothing at all to do with nomenclature and numbers they use for labelling on naming. It's a very definitive number as is LWL and LOH or LOD.

Point in fact - and - I don't know, if maybe since the "old days" LOA boat measurement rules have changed.

Anyway..

Uniflite for years manufactured and sold the "31'" sedan. We had a 1973 model.

Some where around mid 70's Uni altered the design of superstructure and interior layout on that boat... but utilized the exact same hull mold as before. Suddenly that Uni [with exact same hull] was advertised/touted as their new 32'er; and, marketed/sold as such. From what i understand the hull stem to stern was actually a few inches over 31'; so, Uni felt qualified in advertising it a 32' new and improved version of basically the very same pleasure boat

Regarding our 34' Tollycraft tri cabin: From tip of stem to furthest crown in top/center of transom it is 34'. If you add on the factory swim step and minor sized factory anchor pulpit... it could be called a 37'er.

We like staying with the 34' description; for several reasons.

 

[OldDan1943]

Actually, they cannot. It is from the furthest point forward to the furthest back and measured in a straight line. Now, it has nothing at all to do with nomenclature and numbers they use for labelling on naming. It's a very definitive number as is LWL and LOH or LOD.

On my boat, 2008AT, it is documented is a 34ft5inches
When they came out with the boat about 2015 (?), it suddenly became a 36'5", why? Because they added in the swim platform. Same hull, same WLL, deck was modified a bit but same boat. I dont know if the USCG required the change but when I asked the builder, he laughed and said, they could charge more.

 

[BandB]

On my boat, 2008AT, it is documented is a 34ft5inches
When they came out with the boat about 2015 (?), it suddenly became a 36'5", why? Because they added in the swim platform. Same hull, same WLL, deck was modified a bit but same boat. I dont know if the USCG required the change but when I asked the builder, he laughed and said, they could charge more.

The CG requires the LOA and adding the swim platform increased the LOA. It's really simple.