how much roll is too much?

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seattleboatguy

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
327
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Slow Bells
Vessel Make
Marine Trader 38
How much roll is too much roll in a trawler? My neighbor on the dock and I were talking about it last night. I told him my 38' Marine Trader seemed very unstable to me, but I come from a heavy displacement sailboat background, so I'm still a beginner in the trawler world. If I had to guess, I would say too much roll for the average trawler crew would be around 20 degrees each way, and too much roll before the trawler itself became dangerously unstable would be more like 50 degrees. What are your thoughts?
 
When the refrigerator empties out on the floor you're rolling too much :) My vessel is ballasted so I have no fear it will overturn, nor stay overturned if it did wind up in that position. Good topic though:thumb:
 
Trawlers behave very differently from a heavy displacement sailboat with a keel weight of about a third of the boat's weight. Many, maybe most trawlers have no weighted keel or ballast low in the hull.

So a trawler depends on hull form for its roll stability whereas a sailboat depends on its ballast.

A typical semi displacement hull trawler has a vanishing stability of about 80-90 degrees of heel, whereas most sailboats have at least 120 and some 140 degrees of positive stability.

With that said, I have been out in our semi displacement Mainship 34T in 8' beam seas and probably rolled 30 degrees. It was tough and a little scary but I don't believe I was in any danger.

So, back to your title question, I don't know how much roll is too much. I am sure that I would be scared shitless if I were experiencing 50 degrees of roll. And with only another 30-40 degrees of margin before turning turtle I doubt if it is safe in those conditions.

I do know that I have hit at least 45 degrees in a sailboat and although it was ass puckering I didn't feel I was in any danger.

So my best answer to your question is to keep the roll below 30 degrees and you will be fine although probably not very happy in those conditions.

David
 
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Ten both ways is getting too much for me.

20 is borderline where if things arent tied down tight, especially if its the right sized chop where it is snappy.

Yes .....past 50 is getting dangerous in my mind as most of us have no idea how many mods and storage has changed the stabity curves. But thats just a wild guess.

I just am spoiled with ICW cruising and too many trips rocking and rolling for work, but not giving up just yet.
 
Check with the designer..... Of course, that figure will no doubt be an empty boat.
 
How much roll is too much???

If you are unhappy it’s too much!
 
Some trawlers are self-righting. Interesting capsize test

youtube.com/watch?v=N0G7tb80JDw

All boat tests should strap in the marketing guy during the test.
 
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Rolling along.

IMHO - For a typical semi displacement trawler that is not ballasted & with an A/B Ratio of over 2.6 to 1 here is what my experience has been:

For most Semi-Displacement Trawlers with out any sufficient ballast down in your keel, chances are you will not recover from a roll of much over 60 to 70 degree roll. The designer has calculated where that point of no return is & it varies from boat to boat. This has to do with the interaction of the center of buoyancy & center of gravity relationship to each other as the boat heals over & the specific design of the particular boat your looking at.

Without sufficient ballast in your keel, the non ballasted semi-displacement trawler boat with an A/B ratio over 2.6 to 1 can be more stable upside down than it is right side up should you turn turtle. That means it will not self right should it get beyond that point.


of course there are exception like the Dutch boat shown in the video of the "Elling E-4" -- but they also use shaping to encourage self righting & have a lower A/B ratio. BTW - One more thing when it happens in the real ocean, it is not like shown in the video in a quiet bay, it can be quite violent !

My Current boat - The Kadey-Krogen 42 Trawler - which is a ballasted true full displacement hull, has an approximate A/B Ratio 2.2 to 1 & is only stable to about 85 to a max of 90 degrees of roll.
Which BTW is pretty good for a Trawler, as most all Semi-Displacement type trawlers are way less tolerant in their roll axis.
Of course other Full displacement boats with ballasted keels like the Willard's, Nordhavn's & Diesel Duck's, & the like, etc. are in that same neighborhood as the Kadey-Krogen.

Even though this boat has a displacement of 39,500 lbs., They recommend never have more than 750 lbs. up on the fly bridge or on the boat deck or that will upset the center of gravity enough to affect your max recoverable roll angle & make that then under the wanted self righting recoverable angle of roll of 85 degrees, if weight over that 750 lbs. is up there. Yes, I was told this is calculated with 1/2 tank fuel & 1/2 tank water. Filling both gives you about another 5 degrees I am told - but never tested. However, I have never asked the designer the specifics of the details except the interior is empty of everything not factory installed.

So center of gravity is big a key element.

How much roll under those maximums you can comfortably tolerate is up to the crew to decide. When your at 60 or 70 degrees your almost walking in the walls. Anything over 80 degrees you are on the walls. BTW - not recommended.

Most crew get pretty uncomfortable past 30 to 35 degrees. :eek:

Good Luck.

Alfa Mike :thumb:
 
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Heavy weather expected? If you cant our run it and cant find a place to hide the boat. Be considerate and get a bucket. Lower the water level in the head too.
 
Some trawlers are self-righting. Interesting capsize test
That's a pretty cool video. I suspect the Coast Guard boats in Astoria can do the same trick. Very impressive.
 
I'll get back to you in that.

I'll have to get back to you on that. :lol:

Part of the issue is that it is not in the keel.
Typical Ford Lehman is bolted on top of the stringers and weighs about 1,060 lbs.
So it is relatively low in the boat, but not much below the boats actual center of gravity.
So the lever arm is shorter & reduces it's effectiveness. :socool:

So the lever arm is very short in relationship to the center of Gravity which reduces its effectiveness when it comes to roll stability.

Contributes some, but not enough. :banghead:

But lead bars bolted to stringers at bottom of the bilge would help some as they are below the engine so lever arm is a bit longer. Still preferable is in the keel.

Good luck with your "Lehman ballast". :hide:

Alfa Mike :thumb:
 
Some trawlers are self-righting. Interesting capsize test

youtube.com/watch?v=N0G7tb80JDw

All boat tests should strap in the marketing guy during the test.



Yes! And make the design engineer work on it after they build it.
 
I once was told by a navy seaman that the frigate he sailed with had a certain point at which the gun turrets would part ways with the vessel if roll exceed a certain point.
 
alfamike But lead bars bolted to stringers at bottom of the bilge would help some as they are below the engine so lever arm is a bit longer. Still preferable' is in the keel. Good luck with your "Lehman ballast". :hide: Alfa Mike :thumb:[/QUOTE said:
With 1400 # in 50# lead ingots laying over the keel running from aft of the anchor bulkhead in the bow to the bulkhead fore the lazarette, with the major portions under and surrounding the engine, the roll on our boat has been reduced to a very soft motion This on a 28'L X 9'.6"B x 4'D. The original draft was 3'.6". The added weight increased the final draft by 6".
It is pure pleasure to have 'rollers' of 3 feet come under the boat and the boat remain vertical for the most part with that soft roll expressed.
I'd say placed ballast is required in the majority of our pleasure boats. Added weight above the center of gravity should not count in my opinion, it has to be low and centered.
This offered from one who's cheeks of his butt were found up around his ears when the boat was NOT ballasted as described.

Al-Ketchikan
 
When the refrigerator empties out on the floor you're rolling too much...
That has never happened to me on my boat, but it did happen on a cruise ship during a gale in the Tasman Sea.
 
Simple formulas for roll. Too much roll=point of significant discomfort. Iron stomach and care free attitude cockpit full of water=too much roll.
 
From my experience, the boat will take more than you will.

Nothing nice about 30+ degrees in each direction, but the boat pulled through. Cant say the same about the Admiral.

I try my best to avoid anywhere near that and the admiral appreciates my effort.
 
Some of the areas I have to transit have heavy tides that can turn moderate seas into really heavy roll "for little while". Sometimes (usually) it's only for a few hundred yards and then the "fun" is over and it's back to happy cruising. I have learned to always have everything very well secured transiting those areas. There is no way you are going to secure anything while the fun is going on. One time I lost a fish cleaning table and a landing net in that couple of hundred yards of fun :)
 
You want as much weight below the waterline as is reasonable. The more low weight, engines, fuel, water, the better and makes for a quick recovery. Commercial fishing, going where I shouldn't have gone in the conditions, I rolled 90°, got caught in rollers and went to 90° the other way, once again to the 1st 90°. By then I was out of the rollers. I have witnesses, one I am divorced from.
 
Ballast really helps a lot

As "Al" of Al-Ketchikan said in above post & he is correct -- Ballast does make a big difference.

PHP:
With 1400 # in 50# lead ingots laying over the keel running from aft of the 
anchor bulkhead in the bow to the bulkhead fore the lazarette, with the major 
portions under and surrounding the engine, the roll on our boat has been reduced 
to a very soft motion This on a 28'L X 9'.6"B x 4'D. The original draft was 3'.6". 
The added weight increased the final draft by 6". 
It is pure pleasure to have 'rollers' of 3 feet come under the boat and the boat 
remain vertical for the most part with that soft roll expressed.
 
 
I'd say well placed ballast is required in the majority of our pleasure boats. 
 
 
Added weight above the center of gravity should not count in my opinion,
 it has to be low and centered.

Also read what "Lepke" has to say - center of gravity is so important to be low.


So that is something to think about. I recommend it be secured rather then just laid in place. You don't want any sudden unexpected shifts to cause an issue. But the theory is the same - Lower that center of gravity

Alfa Mike
 
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Boat openings hole for exaple the machine room air inlet, this set the maximum angle when the water penetrates inside and the vessel loses more stability.


NT max angle is about 45° emphty boat and 40° load boat when water coming in engine rooms and The game begins to become dangerous, loose liquid or other load increases the risk of crashing not logically(NT does not bilge pump in machine room standard.)


In my opinion, every manufacturer should give the boat GZ-curves to the boat users in order to see approximately how the boat behaves in theoretical swing and what is the biggest angle before the gapazitance. I asked this GZ-curve NT manufacturer but I did not ...


You can see what small improvements the Nordic tug made that they got the CE mark B for the vessel on the European market and a bit of general stability


http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVxVaHdNZfGAAUQtXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyczNvZTdzBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjQ1MTdfMQRzZWMDc3I-/RV=2/RE=1507036634/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.glantoa.net%2fnordic_tugs_stability.pdf/RK=1/RS=zfOmHMDgNdsRPYVuR5doUur7TQw-
 
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As "Al" of Al-Ketchikan said in above post & he is correct -- Ballast does make a big difference.

PHP:
With 1400 # in 50# lead ingots laying over the keel running from aft of the 
anchor bulkhead in the bow to the bulkhead fore the lazarette, with the major 
portions under and surrounding the engine, the roll on our boat has been reduced 
to a very soft motion This on a 28'L X 9'.6"B x 4'D. The original draft was 3'.6". 
The added weight increased the final draft by 6". 
It is pure pleasure to have 'rollers' of 3 feet come under the boat and the boat 
remain vertical for the most part with that soft roll expressed.
 
 
I'd say well placed ballast is required in the majority of our pleasure boats. 
 
 
Added weight above the center of gravity should not count in my opinion,
 it has to be low and centered.

Also read what "Lepke" has to say - center of gravity is so important to be low.


So that is something to think about. I recommend it be secured rather then just laid in place. You don't want any sudden unexpected shifts to cause an issue. But the theory is the same - Lower that center of gravity

Alfa Mike

The weight point drop too low causes more stability that will result in motion acceleration which will cause more sorrows to roll the boat(Movement fast and acceleration large).
 
If I had to guess, I would say too much roll for the average trawler crew would be around 20 degrees each way, and too much roll before the trawler itself became dangerously unstable would be more like 50 degrees. What are your thoughts?

Every boat is different, along with every captain, but I think your estimates are close for most recreational trawlers and crew.

Although my boat is a motorsailer, it is based on a full displacement cruiser hull similar to a Willard. There is some ballast in the keel but I don't know how much.
I've had it laying down at about 60-70 degrees when hit with a freak gust of wind when under full sail. That is well beyond my comfort limits and it sure seemed dangerous at the time, but I don't if I was to capsizing.

One thing that really adds to the risk of capsizing is a shifting load. If stored gear, dinghy, fuel/water tanks, batteries, etc break loose, then it starts getting ugly real fast. Especially anything stored on the flybridge or cabin roof (including people). Keep your load secure.

I had a hot water tank come loose, at the most inopportune time on my first venture into rough water with this boat.
 
The distance a boat rolls is not what causes a vomitorium , it is the speed of reversal between rolls.

I would rather be on a boat that rolls 5 deg further than a boat that snaps up .
 
Weight low may prevent the roll to a point but it can make it a snappy roll. Which itself can be small but miserable .

If naval architecture only needed one formula, we all would be one.
 

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