How to determine your limits...

[ranger58sb]

How mechanically inclined were you when you first started boating? If you weren't that mechanically inclined, how did you develop the mindset needed to accomplish projects - especially without buying materials two or three times and redoing things? And most importantly, how do you know when it's time to call in a professional?

Not very, but mostly because I spent my employment years doing other types of work... no huge time available for trial-and-error on mechanical stuff. Irrelevant, since you're (appropriately) thinking about you.

Limits change over time. What might be difficult for you today could be easier next week or next year. Knowledge builds on knowledge, so what you learn today could make what you need to learn next week or next year more easily acquired.

Jobs (problems) vary. Some are easier, some more complicated. Many of the more complicated jobs are actually a series of connected smaller, easier jobs. Divide and conquer.

Some jobs only require a few simple steps. If access won't hurt you, those are generally good to start with. Some are more complicated, but if you can find the manual, read and understand the directions, have the tools... and access won't hurt you... those can be good learning/practicing jobs. Some jobs are complicated, might benefit from special skill or tools... and here's maybe where it pays to hire the expert... and then have him teach you how to do that job while he does it for you. Et cetera.

I've found learning the jargon first is critical. What the hell's a "flange?" (A real example, in my life; had to look it up.) Once you know the jargon, understanding the directions is easier.

The manual for a given system is usually useful, usually available online.

Exploded parts diagrams are nifty, and usually available for systems that have several parts. Usually available online from the manufacturer, these days.

You don't need to go from zero to hero in 47 minutes flat. Start now, eventually you'll be comfortable with doing your own work more often... and you'll see your maintenance bills will have gone down. Today's limits don't have to be tomorrow's limits.

-Chris

 

[Slowboattochina]

I am successful as a real estate developer but because I originally grew up and then ran a potato farm I feel like I can fix anything. I minored in engineering in college. I restored two boats from the keel up. Now I tend to tear things apart and fix them even though it would make more sense for me to spend my time doing what I do and hire people to fix the boat....but then again I am the type of person who when I bought a pool cleaning robot stood there and told it "you missed a spot"

 

[Hippocampus]

Enjoyed post #27. Thank you. It brought to mind the number of times when DIY was considerably more expensive than hiring out a job. Breaking things (little plastic parts with previous unknown types of snaps to hold them in place, motherboards or prewired boards of resistors, capacitors and such, list is goes on…) upon removal. Or damaging things or losing them upon installation ( to become treasures of the bilge). My wife routinely yells at me to take off good clothes when I say”this should take just a minute”. Now have good shore clothes, boat clothes and work clothes. Recall fixing an AC unit. First thought it was the control. Replaced that, then the cabling between motherboard and control panel. Replaced that. Finally the motherboard. Then it worked.
Still, after years of dumb moves I like working on the boat. The sense of self reliance and accomplishment is worth the extra time and expense. It’s so far divorced from what I did for a living. Everything is real, immediate and physical. Everything is logical and ultimately fixable or replaceable. Sure there’s “I don’t know” but there’s always “I’ll figure it out”. Wish that was true for other aspects of life.

 

[toocoys]

Taking this thread into account, this morning I got into my engine room and started the disassembly of my crankshaft mounted water pump. It had a leak with a stead drip. Originally I was a little hesitant for fear that I'd ruin the engines some kind of way. But I got down there and inspected what hoses were connected, how the pump was mounted, how the support bracket was mounted, and then proceeded to disassemble from the outside in.

I started getting a little gun shy when I couldn't figure out how to get the pump off the pulley. I called my father who talked me through it a little, and then I took the cover off the pump, which yielded a part number. Johnson Pump F6B-9, and TA-DAHHHHHH!!! All the internet images I could need. Finally figured out I needed an allen wrench to remove three mounting screws that went into the pulley.

New parts on order, and as soon as it comes in I'll start assembling my way in reverse. I'm figuring I probably saved myself at least $200 in labor.

 

[GoneDiving]

I started getting a little gun shy when I couldn't figure out how to get the pump off the pulley

If I'm ever unsure about how something is coming apart or if there is a chance of incorrect reassembly, then I take photos. A lot of photos. You can never have too many images or angles of what it should look like.

Of course an exploded parts diagram also helps.

 

[toocoys]

If I'm ever unsure about how something is coming apart or if there is a chance of incorrect reassembly, then I take photos. A lot of photos. You can never have too many images or angles of what it should look like.

Of course an exploded parts diagram also helps.

That's how I rebuilt the carb on the old CC 327's. I wasn't afraid to break those engines though. These bigger 454 fuel injected engines scare me, especially because they're what power our home.

So far so good on the water pump stuff though.

 

[rgano]

I know many of us reading this are saying to themselves, "YESSSS! He did it. Good for him!" We're proud. To many who have been doing their own maintenance for many years, it's a baby step, but we recognize, nonetheless, it was a big one for you. There are many more ahead. So what's next? Checking valve clearances after retorquing the heads? You have just entered what I have long called "the affordable boating zone."

 

[toocoys]

So what's next? Checking valve clearances after retorquing the heads?

uhhh.... oil change? :lol:

 

[BandB]

New parts on order, and as soon as it comes in I'll start assembling my way in reverse. I'm figuring I probably saved myself at least $200 in labor.

The question I always have to ask you and others is, "how do you value your own time?"

Clearly you have time invested in doing this and including all the time, looking on line, talking to father, I'm guessing quite a few hours when all is said and done. 4? 6? 8?

Time, like money, has value. Some of that value can be converted to dollars and cents. Do you value it based on what you earn per hour in your work? Do you value it at zero on the basis you wouldn't be doing anything else or you really enjoy doing this? Or do you value it based on other things you could do instead like time with family or playing golf or something?

Some thought examples:

#1-Figures it would take them 5 hours They earn $40 an hour and can get all the work they want on their job and prefer doing their work to this. So $200 vs $200, no savings and don't enjoy it.

#2-Finds doing this work very rewarding. No way they would prefer to spend the time. Saving $200 is just an additional benefit.

#3-Partner constantly complaining about them spending time working on boat rather than leisure time with them. Value of time immeasurable and well worth the $200 cost to avoid doing this.

#4-Retired. Only other work is driving Uber and makes $11 an hour doing so. Spends 4 hours doing this so well worth it to save $200 while using $44 worth of personal labor.

#5-Loves learning and doing work like this and doesn't care what the cost, prefers doing it oneself.

#6-Absolutely hates doing work like this. Would rather be with partner doing anything else and doesn't care what the cost is to pay others to do it.

We all look at these things differently. I do value time highly and look at how I'd prefer to spend it, but that leads to unique decisions too. Here's an example many might do differently. My wife and I are to make a trip to NC. The drive is 10.5 hours so with stopping and fueling and eating lets say 12 hours and cost is likely $350 or so. Can fly in 2 hours but including getting to airport and all perhaps say 4 hours and 2 tickets $308. So save $42 and 6.5 hours, clearly better it would seem? But....I don't like flying. I especially don't like flying commercial. I love the drive with my wife. We sing, we talk, we make it special. So, we always drive it. I put negative value on time spent in airports and on airplanes and positive value on time riding in a car with my wife. It's not that I ignore the value of time, I very much consider it.

 

[dhays]

Great post by BandB.


My Dad was born during the depression and grew up on a farm. He was raised with the ethic of "never pay someone to do something that you can do yourself". Fortunately, he was intelligent, talented, and resourceful. I had that same idea drilled into me, but I don't have my Dad's intelligence, talent and patience.


As I have been able to afford to pay others to do things that I could do myself, I make those decisions with my own "4-way test of the things we chose to do" (apologies to Rotary).


1. Is it something that I am confident I can do?
2. Is it practical for me to do? (ie do I have the time, tools, space, etc...)
3. Is it something that I would enjoy doing?
4. Is it something I can afford to have someone else do?


Examples:
Mowing my lawn;

I know I can mow my lawn. I have the time. I hate doing it. I can afford to pay someone else. Result? I don't mow my lawn.



Change engine anodes;

I know I can change my anodes. I have the time/tools. I enjoy doing it. I can afford to pay someone else. Result? I change my own anodes.


Change oil/filters;
I know I can do it. I have the time/tools. I enjoy doing it. I can afford to pay someone else. Result? I change my own oil/filters.


There are other things that I have chosen not to do such as clean my heat exchanger. I could do it but the time and space are prohibitive and I didn't really want to do it.


Washing the boat is the same. I can do it, but I'd rather spend time on the boat doing something I like than something that is just a chore.


To the OPs question though, I am overly confident in my ability to do things. I figure I can get it right eventually. I also know that even skilled professionals can screw things up. The difference of course is that the mechanics screwed up my engine, I got a new engine at no cost. If I screwed up my engine, it would have been a hugely expensive learning experience.

 

[toocoys]

Time, like money, has value. Some of that value can be converted to dollars and cents. Do you value it based on what you earn per hour in your work? Do you value it at zero on the basis you wouldn't be doing anything else or you really enjoy doing this? Or do you value it based on other things you could do instead like time with family or playing golf or something?

I don't look at it in those terms. If I didn't have this to do, I'd probably have napped all day, maybe ran a few errands, did a little photography. Nothing spectacular.

But if we look at it in dollars and cents then it probably saved me money, since I wasn't out shopping for random and probably not needed things.

ETA: I'd probably bet money you're in some sort of analytical position, or at least was before retirement. I'd event venture to bet you were probably in a financial field. Accountant?

 

[Simi 60]

.


To the OPs question though, I am overly confident in my ability to do things. I figure I can get it right eventually. I also know that even skilled professionals can screw things up. The difference of course is that the mechanics screwed up my engine, I got a new engine at no cost. If I screwed up my engine, it would have been a hugely expensive learning experience.

Good luck with that

 

[dhays]

Good luck with that

As they say, been there, done that.


https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s6/engine-running-very-rough-qsb-5-9l-30444.html

 

[BandB]

ETA: I'd probably bet money you're in some sort of analytical position, or at least was before retirement. I'd event venture to bet you were probably in a financial field. Accountant?

College major, accounting. Background financial early years then operational and so route from CFO to CEO.

Yes and the other group that would think similarly would be industrial engineers.

 

[Simi 60]

As they say, been there, done that.


https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s6/engine-running-very-rough-qsb-5-9l-30444.html

But you never got a new engine at no cost.
If I read it correctly they repaired the problem you paid them to find

With the alternator disconnected, the engine started and ran perfectly.
We reconnected the alternator and the problem returned full force.

Replacing an engine may have had them do what happened to people we know

Shelled out $60,000 for a paint job with a supposedly reputable contractor working from reputable yard
A few weeks after paint starts to blister
Back and forth with painter to repair or use his insurance , no joy
Get legal on him and he goes bankrupt and opens up under a new name and new "owner"
The end.

See this sort of thing happen often enough over the years, business does a phoenix rather than pay out a big bill

 

[Hippocampus]

Even if you’re fortunate in that you can afford to pay for most maintenance I would suggest it’s worthwhile to do what you can at least once.
First, time may come you will be forced to do it yourself. It makes sense to have basic spares and tools against that eventuality.
Second, it allows you to judge the adequacy of pros work and if the bill is reasonable.
Third, this may sound stupid but with the complexities of current cruising yachts if you can at least do preliminary diagnostics you’ll know who to hire.
Fourth, not infrequently the tech has asked me for my observations before he digs in and also during the task. Being somewhat knowledgeable means the information you are able to give and the things you have noticed are more helpful in moving the repair along. Also I’m able to be a useful second pair of hands.
Lastly, some tasks done by yourself are rewarding to do. Knowing how the systems in your boat work means you’ll be less likely to abuse them, break them, know when to stop using them until repair occurs. Think you gain that knowledge from messing around in them.

 

[AlanT]

The question I always have to ask you and others is, "how do you value your own time?"

Clearly you have time invested in doing this and including all the time, looking on line, talking to father, I'm guessing quite a few hours when all is said and done. 4? 6? 8?

Time, like money, has value. Some of that value can be converted to dollars and cents. Do you value it based on what you earn per hour in your work? Do you value it at zero on the basis you wouldn't be doing anything else or you really enjoy doing this? Or do you value it based on other things you could do instead like time with family or playing golf or something?

Some thought examples:

#1-Figures it would take them 5 hours They earn $40 an hour and can get all the work they want on their job and prefer doing their work to this. So $200 vs $200, no savings and don't enjoy it.

#2-Finds doing this work very rewarding. No way they would prefer to spend the time. Saving $200 is just an additional benefit.

#3-Partner constantly complaining about them spending time working on boat rather than leisure time with them. Value of time immeasurable and well worth the $200 cost to avoid doing this.

#4-Retired. Only other work is driving Uber and makes $11 an hour doing so. Spends 4 hours doing this so well worth it to save $200 while using $44 worth of personal labor.

#5-Loves learning and doing work like this and doesn't care what the cost, prefers doing it oneself.

#6-Absolutely hates doing work like this. Would rather be with partner doing anything else and doesn't care what the cost is to pay others to do it.

We all look at these things differently. I do value time highly and look at how I'd prefer to spend it, but that leads to unique decisions too. Here's an example many might do differently. My wife and I are to make a trip to NC. The drive is 10.5 hours so with stopping and fueling and eating lets say 12 hours and cost is likely $350 or so. Can fly in 2 hours but including getting to airport and all perhaps say 4 hours and 2 tickets $308. So save $42 and 6.5 hours, clearly better it would seem? But....I don't like flying. I especially don't like flying commercial. I love the drive with my wife. We sing, we talk, we make it special. So, we always drive it. I put negative value on time spent in airports and on airplanes and positive value on time riding in a car with my wife. It's not that I ignore the value of time, I very much consider it.

Excellent post B&B.

To the OP. I don't know your age, but that is important. If you are at your current level of practical expertise at 30 or 40 I would say no big deal. You have years to go to develop those skills (should you choose). Many of us (speaking personally) were wholly consumed with careers & kids from teen years or post college to the 40/50's and had no real opportunity to take the time to sensibly tackle big jobs. When time became available and that project didn't have to get me to the train station in the morning, then it became more realistic to do my own work.

Having said that, at 20 I replaced the wheel bearings/donuts in my Lotus Elan +2. I say that not to brag but to show that commitment is necessary and since I didn't have money to have the wheel bearings replaced, and could not really afford the car anyway I HAD to do it myself. In my education necessity became the mother of invention. I did make a bit of a hash of it, damaged one brake hub and probably only came out slightly ahead of a shop job.

If you are in your 60's then don't start now!

Good luck
~A

 

[SteveK]

I know many of us reading this are saying to themselves, "YESSSS! He did it. Good for him!" We're proud. To many who have been doing their own maintenance for many years, it's a baby step, but we recognize, nonetheless, it was a big one for you. There are many more ahead. So what's next? Checking valve clearances after retorquing the heads? You have just entered what I have long called "the affordable boating zone."

Is that played to the same sound track as the Twilight Zone

 

[toocoys]

Shelled out $60,000 for a paint job with a supposedly reputable contractor working from reputable yard
A few weeks after paint starts to blister
Back and forth with painter to repair or use his insurance , no joy
Get legal on him and he goes bankrupt and opens up under a new name and new "owner"
The end.

See this sort of thing happen often enough over the years, business does a phoenix rather than pay out a big bill

Here's my very true story...although not to that extent.

As I posted, yesterday I removed the crank shaft mounted water pump. The spit valve on the water pump rests in a 90º bracket that is mounted to the engine block. Two years ago, I noticed that the water pump was wobbling when the engine was running, turns out the spit valve had bounced out of the bracket. I called a local boat mechanic company whom I had seen around the marina on numerous occasions, and I thought I'd give them a try. They came out, looked over the "harmonic balancer" (AKA the 90º bracket) and told me it needed to be replaced.

I just found the invoice for that job. $460 for a "harmonic balancer" (which clearly wasn't the issue and wasn't replaced), which included $332 of labor.

After learning what I learned yesterday by doing it myself, I now know that all they did was loosen two bolts on the bracket, reseated the water pump, and tightened the two bolts. I guess a paid for a part that I never got, and "labor" that wasn't really needed.

That company has now gone out of business and is now operating under a different name. I figured all the dock talk about the owner doing shady work and having to rename his business was just that, dock talk. But I now know different. And I can't believe I was that naive.

 

[slowgoesit]

Some of the nice things about tackling a repair in the comfort of your home marina are:

• that it builds confidence in your ability to take on repairs
• It may also result in your purchasing and retaining specific tools that may be needed on a semi-regular basis
• It helps you to realize when the "pros" are feeding you a line of bull
• but, for me, probably the most important benefit is that it will help you when you have a similar, or related problem in the future . . . in a remote area . . . miles and miles away from the "pros", and likely out of internet range to access you tube!

It's difficult to just plan on throwing a credit card at the issue when there is no one within screaming range to throw it to!

 

[rslifkin]

With boats, cars, etc. I do most of my own work, even if I end up buying tools, learning, getting frustrated, etc. It's for a few reasons: I hate paying people to work on my stuff. I hate other people touching my stuff (if I break something else or have a later issue, I'm more likely to know exactly what was touched and done). And it's just more convenient sometimes.

For a lot of things, even if I could pay someone to do it a little faster than I can, they may not be available for a week or 2, while I can work on something at 9PM if that's when it's convenient. And the more I can do myself, the better off I am when I have an issue away from home, as I'm less likely to need to find and then wait for someone who can fix it.

The last time I tried to throw money at a problem away from home, I was told "we can look at it in 2 - 3 weeks" by everyone I talked to. So I ended up having a friend drive out to provide extra hands and we tore the thing apart, confirmed what was broken, overnighted a part and had it back together and tested on day 3. Even after compensating that friend well for his time, fuel, etc. it came out cheaper and the problem was fixed several weeks sooner, despite it being an issue I didn't want to dig into myself.

 

[Slowboattochina]

Another side of this is the huge labor shortage we are experiencing. I gave our marina a list of seven things I wanted fixed two months ago. So far five of them are done...all by me. They haven't had time to get to my list yet. If they don't hurry up I will have done them all in my spare time.

 

[rslifkin]

Another side of this is the huge labor shortage we are experiencing. I gave our marina a list of seven things I wanted fixed two months ago. So far five of them are done...all by me. They haven't had time to get to my list yet. If they don't hurry up I will have done them all in my spare time.

For services like that, it seems like demand is way up as well. A lot of people got a late start to last year or took the season off. Plus all of the new boat owners, so boat yards, mechanics, etc. are all very busy and even if they're fully staffed, they can only scale up so quickly to catch up with demand.

 

[SteveK]

The labor shortage for this type of work may not improve for many years to come. While boat owners are willing to do their own work, few go into this occupation. Just spent a week in the yard and only saw one young man doing the job.

 

[BandB]

but, for me, probably the most important benefit is that it will help you when you have a similar, or related problem in the future . . . in a remote area . . . miles and miles away from the "pros", and likely out of internet range to access you tube!

It's difficult to just plan on throwing a credit card at the issue when there is no one within screaming range to throw it to!

With a properly maintained boat, I'm not sure that point is nearly as valid as often made to sound. We do know how to address those things which would most often leave you stranded but none of that really requires the knowledge or ability to do major engine work or similar. Fuel, impellers and then the one you can't address from inside the boat is props and shafts.

I'm just not aware of that many instances of a problem while cruising that a DIY owner could resolve and we could not or that we couldn't get back to a port. As to being out of internet range, never.

 

[oscar]

My rule of thumb is that if the project requires a $100-$150 hour person (yeah, labor rates are NOT what they used to be) I can figure it out. Youtube U is an accredited institution. Now, the $300-$500 and up range I may want to get help. You know, oral surgery, criminal defense. Stuff like that.

As far as time....... It's a dynamic situation but with the hourly rates mentioned above and the fact that there is more work than "they" can handle the prices have gone through the roof. I am regularly saving a thousand plus a day....

Case in point. Short version.

New install of a combi gas boiler in my basement. I provide the location, clean and ready to go. No tear down, no demo, no removal. Run a 20' gas line to the meter, hang the unit, connect to domestic hot water, install two zone manifold with circulation pumps and connect to one heat pump, cap the other zone.

Material cost..... $4-$5000. TOPS. (It's a VERY nice 200,000 BTU unit, $2300 wholesale) Time.... with the new snazzy crimp tools and flex tubing that's out there...... one guy two days TOPS.

I got three people (large reputable companies) to come out and look at it. Two didn't even have the courtesy to call me back. One came with an estimate....

TWENTY ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS.......

It's gonna take me quite a bit more than two days, mostly learning the applicable sections of the code and figuring out WHAT I need to install. But holy moly..... we have lost our collective minds.

 

[wkearney99]

Case in point. Short version.

New install of a combi gas boiler in my basement. I provide the location, clean and ready to go. No tear down, no demo, no removal. Run a 20' gas line to the meter, hang the unit, connect to domestic hot water, install two zone manifold with circulation pumps and connect to one heat pump, cap the other zone.

Material cost..... $4-$5000. TOPS. (It's a VERY nice 200,000 BTU unit, $2300 wholesale) Time.... with the new snazzy crimp tools and flex tubing that's out there...... one guy two days TOPS.

I got three people (large reputable companies) to come out and look at it. Two didn't even have the courtesy to call me back. One came with an estimate....

TWENTY ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS.......

The difference between basic parts costs and fully installed usually fails to take into account tools, consumables, disposal of old parts, and experience to know how to handle changes on the fly. A truck with a ton of fittings and tools to use them is key to getting that job done quickly and properly. "Oh, we need an X part", a few minutes to the truck and back for it and the tool to get it installed. Versus DIY will take an hour to figure out what's needed, another hour to get to the store and back (along with the tool cost, that'll get used ONCE) and then another two hours to figure out how to do it. Time is money.

All that prep and experience is the difference. This is not a new thing, and people bellyaching about it is as old as time itself.

Me I draw the line at anything going through the hull, fiberglass/paint/varnish work and the engines. I can pay someone else to deal with that work AND the possible adventures that crop up along the way.

Everything else I'm willing to take a stab at first, time permitting. New hose to the shower sump, fresh water pump, new chartplotters and autopilot, sure, that's just basic stuff easily done with a regular assortment of tools.

 

[Fish53]

With most things the cost of redoing a repair gone bad will be significantly less than hiring a professional to do it at all. Once you factor in the learning experience it's virtually impossible to lose by doing it yourself. Self-reliance is one of the most important things to have on a boat as evidenced by the knowledge so many display on here when offering their advice.

 

[wkearney99]

With most things the cost of redoing a repair gone bad will be significantly less than hiring a professional to do it at all. Once you factor in the learning experience it's virtually impossible to lose by doing it yourself.

Gotta say, that is entirely wrong. Stupendously so.

That or you're trolling for sarcasm.

Self-reliance is one of the most important things to have on a boat...

Including knowing when to call in service personnel to get a job done right. The trick is finding ones you trust to get it done properly and quickly. Sadly, that rarely comes cheap.

 

[Fish53]

Gotta say, that is entirely wrong. Stupendously so.

That or you're trolling for sarcasm.


Including knowing when to call in service personnel to get a job done right. The trick is finding ones you trust to get it done properly and quickly. Sadly, that rarely comes cheap.

You're probably right, next time I'm fifty miles from land I'll just call someone when something breaks. (oops, that appears to be sarcasm, sorry)