How bad is too bad when it comes to moisture?

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YMMV but this is the way my curiosity would take me.

Here is a possible starting point:

https://www.astm.org/Standards/wood-standards.html

Google searches like:

marine engineering standards wood moisture

A basic idea that has served me well: anything not essential to the design or purpose is a possible problem.


If extra water freezes inside the core it may never be the same.
 
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I never worry about the deck. This usually has 3/4 plywood and if it has gotten wet and dried a hundred times it will be fun if you dry it out. Stringers another story depending on what they are cored with. The hull is usually solid glass in that era so that shouldn’t be a big concern either. Sony opinion is figure out what the stringers are cored with and stop the leaks and dry the deck. A process of acetone and penetrating epoxy does a damn good job. Where is the boat? Can I buy it for a song? If the motors genset andbother systems are good I’ll bring her back to life. Since I stopped building boats I have be rehabbing them
 
I am a marine professional with decades of boat building and repair experience and am an MIT trained Naval Architect & Marine Engineer with well over a 100 trips to Asia since 1978. Unless you are a glutton for punishment, I would suggest walking away from the boat. Anything is usually repairable, but at what cost? You would also be taking a big risk on being able to recover any of your investment.
 
Moisture in hull/stringers

Years ago looked at a boat with high moisture..good engines.. surveyor and I question the moisture level..

Owner finally admitted the boat had sunk during a hurricane..hence all stringers soaked and wood rot.

Surveyor said walk. I said why..he replied one day on a haul out it will split in half. All wiring will corrode from the inside out...continued major issues.

The boat was a insurance complete write off.....
 
I pulled wood out of my boat that had not been dry for 40 years. Wrung them out like a sponge...your right about not wanting to do the repairs. I would not go thru it again willingly. I drilled holes until I found all the bad spots and repaired them all...good for another 40 years. My opinion is junk it or fix it. Nothing sadder than a boat left to rot away...(don’t count the hours it takes)
 
78 Grand Banks
Winter of 19 peeled off all the gel coat on the bottom. Blistered & delaminated. Glass under everything was solid & needed minor fill. Re glassed, 3 layers with vynilester resin, 8 coats of Interprotect epoxy, new boot stripe painted, low $20s. Worth it. Engines, decks, salon, flybridge are great. My site here has a few pictures.
 
I think the ether is starting to wear off

I am going to verify the tanks still. The stringers, well that is the issue. If they were wet and had not moved I would call in a surveyor/builder, but with evidence of one stringer moving I think it is going to be too much hassle. As what price? Hassle is hassle, at any price. Thank you to all who offered thoughts and suggestions. Much appreciated. Bill
 
How much moisture is too much? At what point is the structure jeopardized? Speaking of decks only, from my experience with many boats, there are several factors not yet mentioned. Core material - Foam is unlikely to rot but freeze/thaw can cause separation which reduces stiffness. Balsa will rot quickly and the top skin will depress when stood upon possibly leading to catastrophe but I have not witnessed to that point. Marine ply coring can survive wet and maintain integrity for many many years such that the surveyor's hammer will not detect it. So coring material is an important consideration and the other factor is time. I think for how long the material has been wet is most important but unless the core is dried out, it will eventually fail.
 
Moparharn.......if you think some of the replies here are weird, you should have seen them in a recent thread of mine!!! It reminds me of when some guy posts a thread about cement boats, and guys answer like, "cement cant float", or "run away" and just after a guy says his cement boat has been wonderful for years. Its the nature of the web and anonymous posts in groups.
 
You have rotten ribs or stringers?
If you can isolate the area, there is a product called "get-rot". Get and squeeze bottle drill some holes and force the get-rot into the area under pressure. It will cure and the area will be solid.
I used it on a small sail boat with great success.
 
Moisture in cored boats worries me as well. It is tough to know how bad the rot is when you don't know the history of the boat. Moistures levels may be reduced just by the boat being covered or in heated storage for a period of time. This alone does not reduce the problem.

My current boat had a significant wet core issues in the fore deck which I discovered when installing a new windlass. The deck seemed solid to walk on, but an area of about one m3, (10 square feet) was wet with the plywood core having the consistency of porridge. There had been water ingress at the forestay chainplate probably for many years.

It was a fairly straightforward repair, but if ignored it could have led to serious issues. The forestay, windlass or bollard mounted in this area could have easily been ripped out of the foredeck due to a much reduced deck strength.

I have also found a small amount of rot in the stringers alongside the engine caused by unsealed limber holes. I drilled these out and epoxied them up, but since I was re-powering with a narrower engine, I sistered the stringers the give me a solid base for the new engine mounts. Again, this is an area where you do not want rot to compromise the structural strength.

I wouldn't doubt if their would be high moisture reading around my deck hatches. In these areas, I'm not overly concerned about and would only repair if I was replacing the hatch.

In summary, moisture levels alone don't give an answer to how serious the issue is. It's just one useful tool in assessing the integrity of a boat.
 
This is a good article and filled with interesting observations. While I appreciate the read, it does not change too much for me. Why?

I have used my meter for 10-20 years and it has not had enough error that my observations were not confirmed by others and professionals.

If the meters used by professionals are prone to the errors covered in the article, does it matter? In other words, if a surveyor says my brand X meter shows excessive moisture here, here and here, your buyer is going to walk or you are going to walk. Could you imagine me trying to explain to a potential buyer and his insurance company that the surveyors instruments are known to have limitations that could result in error?

I was surprised to see this post from 18 months ago. The boat that caused me to ask these questions has been continuously for sale for at least two years. So I am going to assume that once again my meter was accurate. I made an offer on the boat and my phone call was not even returned. I eventually called back enough that the broker felt he should take the call. What does two years of indoor heated storage cost for a 42 foot trawler? When does an owner cut bait? Maybe the engines are not the gems I think they are. There are much smarter and much more capable potential boat buyers out there than me and the boat is still there. I have a real interest in steel or aluminum trawlers now. The trawlers in my price range are generally never free of significant moisture issues. I know, I know, I completely understand the bag tricks associated with steel boats. Fresh water steel boats properly coated and insulated from new do not scare me one bit. I have had a very tough time finding a 1980'/early 90's asian trawler that did not have wet stringers ,decks, windows, and tank issues. Do your best. Know what you can accept and jump in.
 
I was with a friend who had a CHB 41boat surveyed in Hawaii, as part of pre-purchase. Surveyor said fore deck had significant moisture, probably as a result of incorrect bedding/installation of cleats, and anchor windlass. He stated that movement of the deck in the vicinity of the windlass was most likely due to plywood or balsa core deteriorated to a "mush". Surveyor pointed out the readings on the meter, and marked the worst areas with chalk.
Recommended solution was to remove hardware, remove top fiberglass, clean out all rotten/water damaged core, replace core, replace fiberglass.
Original teak deck had been removed, unsure whether it was glued or screwed, but due to absence of any visible, filled screw holes, assumed it was glued.
Anyway, obtained an estimate of repair, and negotiated a SUBSTANTIAL reduction (North of $20k, including several other spots of "water saturation" noted on fly bridge and side deck during the survey)
Don used the boat for about 8 months before he decided to tackle the foredeck. He was going to install a new windlass at the same time. I helped him remove the windlass . . . bone dry. Core had been cleaned out for some distance past where windlass mounted, solid fiberglass infill installed, then drilled and bedded down. We assumed that the core was destroyed outside of the area where the fiberglass had been placed. We ended up drilling about 12, 1" cores in foredeck, flybridge, and side deck, in areas where the surveyor pointed out significant water intrusion, and rotted core . . . never found any water, never found any sign of water intrusion, core was dry, well bonded to both layers of fiberglass, no issues whatsover . . . except 12 each, 1" holes now in his deck . . . :eek:. We had drilled about half of them in locations where he was planning on installing equipment (like permanently installed chair on fly bridge), so they weren't a problem, just required digging out core for around 2" diameter, and filling with epoxy/glass before installing bolts, but the other holes required repairing. We never did find ANY sign of core damage or water intrusion. We had taken pics of the "chalk markings" during the survey, so we were sure that the areas we "sampled" were the "worst areas of damage" noted by the surveyor . . . who cost the Seller North of $20k . . . The minuscule flexing the surveyor noted we attributed to the removal of the teak decking without building up the fiberglass to compensate for the teak removal. We ended up building up an area about 3' long by 2' wide in the area where the windlass mounted, faring the edges down into the deck. Used 1/2" marine plywood, covered by 1/4" - 3/8" of bi directional matt and roving, did same, but smaller size buildups under cleats.
Don ran into the Seller about a year later, and just told him that the deck issues had been "addressed" . . . . :angel:
My faith in "Professional Surveyors" using "years of experience" with moisture meters has been pretty much destroyed . . . . YMMV
 
A few thoughts on your post.
1. Had the area been repaired before?

2. I understand completely what you are saying, but until the buyers and their insurance companies agree with you it does not matter.

3. I have not experienced a moisture caused failure, but I have experienced a moisture caused flexing, cracking, and worrisome condition. I have also experienced deals falling apart because of the obvious signs of moisture. This kind of goes back to my original post. How often does this lead to failure. The post showing the stringer failure would be a major problem that could easily lead to the boat sinking once the engine is flying around in the bilge.

4. The boat that caused me to post this had some different looking paint on the cabin top on one half. Moisture was high on the non matching side and dry on the other. When I walked on it the different looking paint side flexed and the other did not. I was worried I might cause the paint to crack or the deck to fail if I did not get my fat ass off of it. Can this be repaired? Sure. Does it need to be repaired? Not sure. If you ever want to sell it-probably. If you do not intend to invest heavily in the boat- who cares, sell it for the same low price you bought it for because of the moisture. The rub here is this- can you get insurance if you do not fix it, and will it ever put your safety in question.
 
You have rotten ribs or stringers?
If you can isolate the area, there is a product called "get-rot". Get and squeeze bottle drill some holes and force the get-rot into the area under pressure. It will cure and the area will be solid.
I used it on a small sail boat with great success.

But it will not cure a structural fault. For that, new material is required.
 
"The minuscule flexing the surveyor noted we attributed to the removal of the teak decking without building up the fiberglass to compensate for the teak removal."

On most TT the teak overlay was an upsell option, it was never figured in the deck calculations.

This is probably just another example ," GRP is usually strong enough , just not stiff enough."
 
this is an interesting thread , reminds me of a conversation i had with another trawler owner this past weekend. i bought my boat knowing it had "wet and soft" decks on the flybridge and main deck just aft of the anchor post. over the last winter i recored the flybridge. it was a jigsaw puzzle of teak pieces similar to a parquet floor. i removed all of it and rebuilt the deck from the salon roof up. it is solid as a rock now , both in the hammer test and moisture meter readings.
this winter i plan to address the soft areas on the main deck around the anchor post. the conversation was regarding wet soft deck repairs. we wondered if drilling a few holes in the deck, attaching a vacuum pump and drying out the sub deck material, then pumping it full of a penetrating epoxy would not be an easier and just as effective repair.
we also wondered , just how much moisture content is reasonable on a 35-40 year old tt ? if the decks read 70% moisture but are solid would that be acceptable ?
curious what the experienced members here think...
 
As to drilling holes and injecting a penetrating epoxy, it will not be a few holes, it will be a lot of holes. It may work or it may not work. If it doesn’t work then you have to start over and now digging out the rotten core may be very very difficult with all the epoxy in it. I did a repair on a door jamb on a previous boat with Smith and Company penetrating epoxy and it worked very well but the wood had trim that covered it so I could Swiss cheese the rotted wood and the area was covered by the trim so it didn’t matter how it looked. I drilled a hole about every 1/2” or so. In a deck that would be a bunch of holes to repair.
 
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Meters

I looked at a mid eighties taiwan trawler today. This mfg. is considered the higher end of the tubs. The boat has low hour high dollar motors from 13 years ago. My moisture meter read high moisture content in the deck coring where I could measure from beneath, and high moisture in every stringer and longitudinal I could get the meter on. The cabin top on the port side was also high. Condition everywhere else was a 4-6 out of ten. Boat is still on the hard from last year. It looks like it spent time in Florida and then Texas before that. The boat is currently in fresh water. Bill

Hi and good luck with your decision. My background causes me to place simple moisture meters in the same usefulness bucket as mood rings, baseball caps lined with LED's and the Ford Pinto's rear bumper. Another potentially new boater was wondering about hiring some help in understanding his new boat. As that would likely include meters, I wrote down how a 40 year electronics engineer with a life-sucking amount of time around measurement and helping name-brand electronics companies improve their measurement views: secondly... these toys, and firstly, the people side... where the problem actually lives. People... extending trust... acting upon/resolving often-consequential decisions... operating and thinking they "get" what's going on so they operate it correctly... without a hint of the training or experience to allow that belief to form. Forums, docks, cul de sacs and Land Rover waiting salons are choked with Google-smart pathologically confident people who have total missile lock on everything 3 seconds after absolute first contact. The meters are untrustable because the people who extend their trust to them are.... perhaps... less than useful on just this one single topic. Anyway.. just one guy's opinion. Again, best of luck.

https://www.clockwork-usa.com/post/moisture-meters-a-love-letter
 
I’m going through this process now. My background is experiencing moisture troubles on a prior tayana sailboat. For that one fixed it and then used it for strenuous passage making. There’s no doubt in my mind if properly done removing balsa core and replacing with closed cell foam can restore and at times even improve strength/rigidity. Believe balsa wets out easier and is easier to work with but ply is much more difficult to remove and transition from repair . I just dropped a whole bunch of money on a boat with a wet boat deck. It’s balsa. If it was ply I’d walk away. We have $40k in escrow for the repair. The entire deck outer skin with be removed. No balsa left. Wanted no seam between repair and not repaired as that’s cosmetically unacceptable. The leak is at stantions, and other piercings but very small in those areas. The more significant area is from a seam between deck and pilot house. After repair that area will be ground out and feathered then glassed so no seam will exist. The entire area is structurally sound now before repair just wet on survey. Believe that’s the time to repair. Once sufficiently wet for a long enough time that either rot or freeze thaw cycles have occurred effecting structural integrity you get downstream loading and distortions of other structures as the boat works.
Balsa has a great stiffness, rigidity, resistance to compression , ease of workability even compared to modern foams. But once wet is a headache. Wet ply is even worst imho. But don’t think wet balsa should kill a deal. Questions are
Where is it?
How bad is it?
Is the area already soft?
Can you do the entire repair from the outside?
When accepting this vessel I was confident the involved deck wasn’t important to the structural integrity of the boat. If the boat had balsa in the hull I’d walk away.
I was confident although wet the deck wasn’t rotten.
I obtained a sufficient escrow for repair. I found a yard that has done this repair on this model of boat multiple times and has a good rep among fellow model owners as the place to go.
I know the repair will be cosmetically undetectable and give me a better boat.
Although I would have no reluctance to build or own a strip plank or cold molded boat done properly. I would avoid any boat with wood in the transom or stringers. Also avoid balsa in the hull even if above the waterline. But Baltek in decks isn’t a concern in my opinion as long as it’s dry.
 
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Hah. That’s Boat Poker, who was on the forum for a while. Knowledgeable guy. Didn’t suffer fools. Not sure if he’s still around. I enjoyed his opinions on things.

Jim
Yup, that's boat poker. No he left, too many fools arguing with him.
 
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