Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-13-2020, 12:06 PM   #1
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,130
High School Marine Program

I wish more high schools would offer these types of classes in an attempt to bring kids into the marine technician industry.


https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/marin..._hsmi=81826163
__________________
Advertisement

Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2020, 12:20 PM   #2
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,315
That looks like a good program. I agree, it’s too bad high schools doesn’t offer more. I’d think there are community’s that have a marine based economy where a similar program would be viable.

After high school, Skagit Valley College has a great program. We’ve had a couple of friends that have taken classes there with nothing but good reviews.

https://www.skagit.edu/academics/are...ce-technology/
__________________

Larry M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2020, 12:21 PM   #3
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,376
Greetings,
Mr. ASD. "...offer these types of classes...". I might be totally out in left field here but I think ALL high schools should emphasize technical/hands-on skills. Too little emphasis is placed on the "trades" in North America IMO. As the current workforce ages, industry will be hard pressed to replace workers. Knowledge that the "old hands" have acquired over decades will be lost if not passed on to a replacement workforce via, primarily, apprenticeships.


"Go to college and get a good education so you can get a good job" is a mantra that should be done away with.
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2020, 12:26 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
City: Everett
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Andiamo
Vessel Model: Egg Harbor 33í
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 150
Our kid is doing ORCA out of Everett, he is in High School, but his last two years he is in the ORCA program. If all goes well he should have his High School diploma and his AA. From there he is looking at Cal Mairtime.

https://www.everettcc.edu/programs/math-science/orca/


https://www.csum.edu/web/mycampus/home


He hopes to land a job with Foss Tug/ Tote Mairtime or one of the other Alaska/Hawaii Shipping Companies out of Seattle WA.
Its not high on the radar for a lot of kids with tec jobs paying so much on the West Coast.
RonR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2020, 12:33 PM   #5
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,130
Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Greetings,
Mr. ASD. "...offer these types of classes...". I might be totally out in left field here but I think ALL high schools should emphasize technical/hands-on skills. Too little emphasis is placed on the "trades" in North America IMO. As the current workforce ages, industry will be hard pressed to replace workers. Knowledge that the "old hands" have acquired over decades will be lost if not passed on to a replacement workforce via, primarily, apprenticeships.


"Go to college and get a good education so you can get a good job" is a mantra that should be done away with.
RT I totally agree. I went to High School in Northern California. We had 5 saw mills in the county. They all donated heavy equipment to the school so we could learn how to operate and/or maintain the equipment. I got my first CDL in my senior year. I drove chip/saw dust truck for a few years until the "Sierra Club" shut the logging industry down in the PNW.
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2020, 12:56 PM   #6
GFC
Guru
 
GFC's Avatar
 
City: Tri Cities, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Beachcomber
Vessel Model: Sea Ray 550 Sedan Bridge
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,840
I think those programs are great. When my son was in high school he wanted to be hands on with every DIY project I was working on. In his senior year he decided he wanted to go to a diesel tech school.


We lined him up with Wyoming Tech, he spent a year and a half there and came out with an AA in diesel technology. That was many years ago and he's never been unemployed since.


They're now looking at moving down to TX. He's already been on the phone with a shop down there and is negotiating salary, working hours, etc. He's going to be making a ton more money than he is now and, if he can put up with Texans, he'll probably be there for decades.
__________________
Mike and Tina
Beachcomber 1995 Sea Ray 550 Sedan Bridge
GFC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2020, 01:07 PM   #7
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: AICW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 20,568
I had just the opposite experience...


When I retired from the USCG, and was breaking into the marine industry....I asked a MAJOR delership and repair marina if they would consider me for a job. I tossed in would it help if I used my VA benefits to go to a tech school to get certification(s).


They said I could start next week and that most of the schools were fine for someone who never saw a wrench before but I would learn more in a couple months at the marina than I would at the 2 year tech school.


After working side by side with some graduates of high school programs and tech schools....I would say it it a lot like any education. It's lost on many, good for a bunch but not an end all and great for some.


I think the concept is great...it's the program that is important.



Until they are state of the art and not afterthoughts (like my son's IT high school program)... can be pretty hit or miss. Much like college graduates...the resume and interview usually greatly outweigh the diploma.



Maybe trending back toward apprentice programs with incentives at both the employer and student level (which I think exist in some locations and employment fields) is an alternative or complimentary idea.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2020, 02:48 PM   #8
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,315
Australia has great trade programs. If someone says they are a diesel mechanic, they went to school for it. In social settings, the trades people have the same social standing as a CPA or any other college grad, no stigma.
Larry M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2020, 07:19 PM   #9
Guru
 
JDCAVE's Avatar
 
City: Lions Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,292
High School Marine Program

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
...They said I could start next week and that most of the schools were fine for someone who never saw a wrench before but I would learn more in a couple months at the marina than I would at the 2 year tech school...

Probably true in your case because youíd been around and knew enough to make a difference, but in many instances young people get taken advantage of if they donít get their ticket.

We used to take our cars to a very highly regarded mechanic in the area who ran his own shop. You booked weeks in advance to see him. He was a former race car mechanic and (in the mid 2000ís) was the only person in the Vancouver area who had dealership experience with the servo motors on the T-bird convertible roofs, as his time went back to the 1950ís-1960ís. He took on my son for some high school apprentice work. However he explained to me that it was very important for people to get their ticket because they learn fundamentals at school and the right way of doing something, not the bad habits and short cuts that might be passed on by any old mechanic.

Jim
JDCAVE is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2020, 07:55 PM   #10
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,376
Greetings,
Mr. LM. Stigma is a very appropriate word to use. Some societies are more enlightened than others.
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2020, 08:59 PM   #11
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: AICW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 20,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDCAVE View Post
Probably true in your case because you’d been around and knew enough to make a difference, but in many instances young people get taken advantage of if they don’t get their ticket.

We used to take our cars to a very highly regarded mechanic in the area who ran his own shop. You booked weeks in advance to see him. He was a former race car mechanic and (in the mid 2000’s) was the only person in the Vancouver area who had dealership experience with the servo motors on the T-bird convertible roofs, as his time went back to the 1950’s-1960’s. He took on my son for some high school apprentice work. However he explained to me that it was very important for people to get their ticket because they learn fundamentals at school and the right way of doing something, not the bad habits and short cuts that might be passed on by any old mechanic.

Jim
But it really wasn't just my case...I have heard the same now in many places and many times.... the same sentiment by employers.

The employers were saying the schools were years behind in technology and methods....that it was better to get started in the industry, prove yourself and let the employer send you to factory based schools after learning the basics 10X faster with OJT.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2020, 10:53 PM   #12
Guru
 
JDCAVE's Avatar
 
City: Lions Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,292
High School Marine Program

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
But it really wasn't just my case...I have heard the same now in many places and many times.... the same sentiment by employers.

The employers were saying the schools were years behind in technology and methods....that it was better to get started in the industry, prove yourself and let the employer send you to factory based schools after learning the basics 10X faster with OJT.

But a proper apprenticeship includes working with a journeyman with a company in the industry as well as classroom time. For example:

https://ibew120.ca/apprenticeships/

I think the apprentice stands to gain from both experience in the field as well as with classroom time.
JDCAVE is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2020, 10:59 PM   #13
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,376
Greetings,
Mr. JD. Usually that's the case. On the job and schooling. In MY case, all 8000 hours on the job. NO schooling for my trade in North America.
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2020, 11:11 PM   #14
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 10,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry M View Post
Australia has great trade programs. If someone says they are a diesel mechanic, they went to school for it. In social settings, the trades people have the same social standing as a CPA or any other college grad, no stigma.
We still have apprenticeship systems. While studying and attending TAFE College(Technical and Further Education)they work as an apprentice in a mechanics business. A liability at first, later a valued employee if any good.
I studied law under a somewhat similar regime.
Unfortunately there is a trend away from "on the job" education. Nursing(Registered Nurse) for example, has become a full time University course followed by a year of work experience before the course is complete. You learn a lot "at the coalface", and study makes more sense if you are experiencing the same study area while at work.
__________________
BruceK
Island Gypsy 36 Europa "Doriana"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2020, 01:31 AM   #15
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 17,953
Wifey B: I don't think a high school program can prepare someone for the job. I see it as preparing them for the further program that will make them ready for the job.

I'll try to expand on that thought. I think in high school, all students still need to complete the basic curriculum. That leaves a limited amount of time for a specialty, whether it's a technical specialty or another one. High school needs to prepare the student for the next step while also preparing for life in general.

So, whether it's marine technology or any other area, I feel like high school can provide some basics while allowing one to determine the seriousness of their interest and then they can hit a technical school, often a community college, and in two years be quite ready for a career. Many will work as interns while learning in technical school.

On the job training can train one rapidly sometimes, good sometimes, but poorly other times. One weakness is that by itself it may train someone only for one position, only in one segment of the business. On the other hand formal education should provide a broader base and exposure to more areas.

Obviously, I speak with the prejudice of a teacher and educator, but I'm also a strong supporter of technical training. In a school we have a responsibility with we've made great effort toward preparing students. We also want all students to pursue some post high school education. We do try in the high school program to look at real jobs in the community, jobs that can be available to the student. We have a program in equipment mechanics and we've elicited managers from every manufacturer in town to teach and to offer input. We want the students to meet the requirements of local employers. There was an auto mechanics program and it was all gas engines. We changed it to auto and truck as we approached a very large diesel shop not far away. On top of that the school has a fleet of buses and the students are doing some basic learning and work on them. We were shocked there were no diesel mechanics available in town. We hope many will go on to a two year program, work part time after school, and become employable as diesel mechanics. We don't train in anything marine because no boats in the area and no boatyards.

The school is in a very poor area with limited opportunities, so it's critical that we do gear training toward real jobs, not toward those that don't exist there. We're also in a farming area so have an agricultural program. The school now has a farm and is growing food for the school cafeterias. Not only teaching the kids, but reducing food costs and allowing the cafeterias to improve meal quality.

Yes, Education is an important objective. Preparing young people for long, happy, successful lives is as well. But often we do lose sight of the need to prepare young people for jobs that fit their interests and their aptitudes. Right now we offer IT Training, Agriculture, Equipment Technology, HVAC, Auto and Truck Technology, Health Science, Culinary Arts, Welding Technology and Building Construction. We're open to anything for which there are potential jobs available. The school is in an area of extreme poverty with over 95% of the students coming from families living below the poverty line.

There is no technical or community college in the county, the nearest 40 miles away. They have some very good programs and missing some I wish they did have.

This is our first year involved and still learning our way with an amazing director and a lot of help from local employers, of which we are one. It's a challenge but one emphasis our director there has made for high school students is to really discuss and assist them in planning their future, whatever that might be. We walked into a lot of "I don't know, I have no plans, no idea, nothing." Last year, less than 35% of graduates continued with any form of education. We don't care what it is, but our goal is 100% doing something. Our goal is to educate so none of them have to settle for minimum wage.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2020, 02:47 PM   #16
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,376
Greetings,


__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2020, 03:22 PM   #17
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 17,953
Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Greetings,

Wifey B: I think any implication that what you show in the photo is the norm is very misleading. We know, on average, those with advanced degrees earn more than college graduates, college graduates earn more than those with technical college or training and those with technical training earn more than those with just high school diplomas, who then earn more than those without high school diplomas. That doesn't mean advanced education is the only way but don't dismiss the value of continued education either.

Hubby and I are an example that goes against the advanced education as I have a masters and doctorate and he just has a college degree but he earned many times what I did because I chose education as my profession. In fact, if you want to look at a group for whom college graduation doesn't pay much, teachers would be that group. However, if you want to teach you can't do so without a degree. I was in a field where the advanced degree always earns you more, whether merited or not. My average salary was $8000 more than had I not had the advanced degrees.

We need to provide education for all students that matches their aptitudes and interests. That includes four year colleges, two year technical programs, and solid high school preparation.

In your photo, a 4 year apprenticeship is mentioned. Those are competitive and are typically going now to the person who went to a technical college after high school. Employers want the initial training done and a good basis established.

While I do not believe everyone needs or wants a four year college program, I do believe everyone needs some education after high school to prepare for a good job. I think in many cases that's technical school. The opportunity of apprenticeships with nothing but high school is limited.

We can't provide a solid high school education and prepare one for a technical job in the four years. We can provide basics in technical fields and prepare one for more advanced technical training or internships or other programs. The employers we work with want the students to get more training and are willing to hire them part time while they go to a technical school.

One place all schools, including colleges, including technical schools, need to do a better job is working with employers to find out what they really want and need. Some times they are very much out of touch. That's true across all professions and in all forms of education. Educators are preparing students for professions they, themselves, aren't really prepared for. They're just trained to teach it. Some have connected but others have isolated themselves in academia.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2020, 03:57 PM   #18
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,376
Why Have American Education Standards Collapsed? - Top Performers - Education Week


http://thecollegeconservative.com/20...ing-standards/


I could go on...
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2020, 04:06 PM   #19
Guru
 
rgano's Avatar
 
City: Southport, Florida
Country: USA
Vessel Name: FROLIC
Vessel Model: Mainship 30 Pilot II since 2015. GB-42 1986-2015. Former Unlimited Tonnage Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,197
Send a message via Skype™ to rgano
Sometime between 2008-2012 while I was on the bridge of a destroyer directing its acoustic trials off Andros Island in the Tongue of the Ocean, an ensign came up to me and said I had the coolest job on earth, and a lieutenant about to leave the Navy asked me how he could get such a job. These encounters got me to thinking about what was required for this my last job which came after four years at the Naval Academy, a masters degree in oceanography, attendance at the US Naval War College (which teaches far, far more disparate topics than "war") and all the experiences of a 24 year naval career followed by some merchant marine time including "hunting for Red October" and a stint in the oil patch off Cameron, LA.

Did I need all that experience and education to be able to interface with the destroyer's captain and officer-of-the deck to direct the course and speed and engineering lineup of the ship while directing my below decks crew of three techs and interpreting the comms from the acoustic engineers on the nearby sound boat on two radios? Maybe, maybe not.

In the civilian maritime world I had encountered some very clever people who lacked any post high school academic work who I thought could have done my job of directing acoustic trials. All we would have had to do to get the right, sharp merchant mariner up to speed would have been to give them a survey course on underwater sound in combination with about a year or so on the job working up from the tech-in-the bilge (I had to do thais part too) to the bridge in a makee learn position shadowing me or my boss, two of only four people in the world experienced and qualified for the job. The only problem was the government contract we were under required a minimum four-year engineering degrees for all of us on the team.

In the end, when I left after sixteen years, we ended up training our super sharp Penn State acoustic engineer to tackle the trial director's job on the bridge. We had spent years wondering where we would find a replacement, and he was working with us all that time in another capacity.

It is too bad the US Government didn't get it that a college degree wasn't required for the job. It certainly did not hurt, but we had no choice.

Here in Panama City we have a fine technical institute which trains locals for jobs in the local shipyard, aviation, and shore-based industries. My neighbor, an ex-USCG enlisted man with no college taught the boat building course there.
__________________
Rich Gano
FROLIC (2005 MainShip 30 Pilot II)
Panama City area
rgano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2020, 06:12 PM   #20
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 17,953
Wifey B: As a reading specialist I agree with some of that. If we don't teach the basics, then we'll struggle to teach anything. If I have an 8th grade student reading at a 4th grade level, then until I've helped them raise their reading level, everything else is secondary. Then the real solution is never letting them advance a level without reading competence. I can point out schools including the ones we took over that fewer than 25% of the second graders were ready to move into third grade. That is intolerable. The leads to a lifetime of being under-educated, even illiterate. It can be corrected but we've not shown as a society we're willing to spend what it requires, especially in all the areas where we have economic segregation of our education.

Coming back to the high school marine program, the number one complaint I hear from technical and career centers is the inability of their students to read and write at an acceptable level.

I cry when I see a teenager who believes she is stupid because she can't learn as her classmates when she's actually very smart, but was never taught to read so reads four years behind where she should. I rejoice after helping her and watching her take tests and do well when she declares triumphantly, "I'm not stupid."
__________________

BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×