Here come the hybrids

[Edelweiss]

Maybe some genius will come up with a concept to turn the sea itself into a battery. Sounds far fetched, but what we really need for a battery are two diverse metals in a common electrolyte.

To the contrary. . . It was invented years ago!!!

 

[Andy G]

I think some of you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.The boat has a perfectly good Volvo diesel as well as a hybrid drive system.

I have seen the Greenlines at the last couple of boat shows in Sydney, to me they are very impressive, especially the 40' model.

Whilst the hybrid populsion may have limited application(for me anyway) the boat as a package stacks up very well against other boats on the market that are available for the same price, and that's the nub of it.

The design of the boat is excellent, they are better looking than the website photo's indicate, there is a resemblance to Halvorsen's classical design, again especially the 40',

The interior layout breaks away from the traditional trawler boat style, the positioning of the galley opening up onto the aft entertaining area is excellent, maybe not so good for liveaboards, or those from the Pacific Northwest, but for anyone boating in warm climes on a weekend basis this boat deserves a look.

I have no idea what they retail for in the US, but here the asking price on a new 40' is about $530K(boats are more expensive in Oz) The real question is if you had that type of money to spend on a new boat, would it be on your shortlist?

 

[FlyWright]

 

[twistedtree]

I don't see hybrid tech on boats passing the cost/benefit test. On cars, regenerative braking and keeping the engine in a good spot on the bsfc map makes it viable. Nothing similar on a boat. There is a large amount of power needed to move a boat at anything beyond walking speed, and nothing electric can match the energy density in a big tank of diesel. Solar collectors still have very low output per sqft so can provide just a tiny fraction of energy required to move a boat. Or requires an absurd amount of surface area (see above photo). If the goal is to minimize diesel consumption to extremely low levels, that is what sailboats do very well. In fact, if diesel gets to say $10/gal, that's probably the way I'll go. Managing house electrical, refrigeration and hvac does have room for some creative engineering, but existing systems that most of us use are pretty efficient already. Fun tech to play with, but I don't see its viability.

You took the words right out of my mouth. The key is that the things that yield an efficiency gain in a hybrid auto ( regenerative braking and running the engine in a more efficient power band) don't exist in a boat application. Throw in the power conversion losses, and it makes no engineering sense at all.

But hybrids is good so a hybrid boat must be good and green. And after all, it's called GreenLune. So I'll run out and buy one.

 

[Edelweiss]

Boy!! Not a very appealing bow. . . . reminds me of something from our Art Deco period.

Anybody have any idea what the batteries are and cost of replacement?

 

[Art]

What type HAZMAT occurs from the batt bank if/when boat sinks? Properly gated and reverse-flo valved fuel tanks loose little to no fuel into water.

 

[Nick14]

In the last two issues Passagemaker magazine has had a couple of interesting articles on marine 'hybrids'. What I took away from the articles was, under specific and narrow conditions, and at very slow speeds (under 5 kts), under certain conditions a diesel-electric serial hybrid system might be somewhat more fuel efficient than a conventional diesel engine, because of the ability to run a smaller diesel engine at its most efficient speed (though they made a lot of assumptions in the articles, including 90% conversion efficiency). Otherwise, most of the scenarios they modeled seemed to show a conventional diesel engine being more efficient. There were also some comments in the articles about the complexity and associated reliability issues with a hybrid system (and removal of a system in a boat).

twistedtree and Ski, I think you hit the very heart of the issue - a car can benefit from the energy recapture of regenerative braking, a boat cannot. With the inherent losses of converting from one form of energy to another, I find it hard to imagine how a hybrid system could be more efficient under most conditions in a boat.

To me, the photovoltaic solar cell array is an interesting idea. Of course, being able to power around for 'free' is very appealing. But, while the theory is attractive, the practice is a little different. With the low efficiency of solar cells, the relatively limited space available for the array, and the need for strong sunshine, I think Greenline claims that in strong sun the array could move the boat at 4 kts. Not bad, and OK for puttering around a harbor, but not enough to deal with any kind of current. If it would be possible to get solar only propulsion up to 7-8 kts, then I think it could be a much more attractive and viable proposition (in Florida at least, not in the cloudy PNW), but that would probably take a major advance in solar cell conversion efficiency (and battery capacity to have more useful range).

I looked at the Greenline 33 and 40. Every boat is inherently a compromise and can't appeal to everyone in every way. For my own personal tastes, there were things I liked very much about the designs, and other things not so much. I personally like the 'super displacement' hull design, being able to cruise fuel efficiently (under diesel power) in the low to mid teens is right where I want to be. I also liked the general layout of the boats, with the walk-around side decks and retro profile.

I didn't like what I thought was poor engine room access in the 33 (you have to lift some of the salon furniture and move other floor and other panels, and then have to be a bit of a contortionist, or at least more limber and thinner than I am). I also personally am not a fan of the glass rear bulkhead. I appreciate that it makes for a great dockside party platform, opening up the salon and lowering the transom and all that. I personally prefer a solid bulkhead with a more weather and sea-proof door. Some of the hardware on the boat (cleats, etc.) also seemed a little skimpy, but small stuff like that can be easily upgraded.

For me, it's an interesting concept, and one to watch. Like any first-generation technology (early cars, the first PC's, etc.) it's far from perfect and I won't be one of the early adopters, but hopefully future generations will continue to evolve and improve.

 

[sunchaser]

Greenlines emotional popularity in high tax regions such as Australia and Europe is obvious with diesel fuel at more than 50% higher than what we see in NA. There is no shortage of diesel, only a shortage of low diesel tax countries.

With logic such as Ski and Twisted enunciate, and with many of us in lower sunlight latitudes, efficient hull design and the hand on the throttle seem lasting fuel saving endeavors.

But give it to Greenline, they have created a marketing niche which is what this yachting business is all about. Look no further than Nordhavn, Nordic Tug, Bayliner or Selene to see marketing 101 successfully at work in trawlers we tend to covet.

 

[Richard W]

To me, the photovoltaic solar cell array is an interesting idea. Of course, being able to power around for 'free' is very appealing. But, while the theory is attractive, the practice is a little different. With the low efficiency of solar cells, the relatively limited space available for the array, and the need for strong sunshine, I think Greenline claims that in strong sun the array could move the boat at 4 kts. Not bad, and OK for puttering around a harbor, but not enough to deal with any kind of current. If it would be possible to get solar only propulsion up to 7-8 kts, then I think it could be a much more attractive and viable proposition (in Florida at least, not in the cloudy PNW), but that would probably take a major advance in solar cell conversion efficiency (and battery capacity to have more useful range).

On that point, the solar/regenerative/one-way-or-another electricity is interesting idea that can supplement/offset some carbon based fuels and reduce emissions. Me thinks, there is a different, much bigger shift in thinking represented in Greenline pleasure boats than renewable energy.

Look at the big and powerful diesel locomotives, well … they are really electricity driven beasts. They were invented over 100 years ago. A similar approach migrated to personal cars only in the last 7-10 years. The same is beginning to happen with boats now … the electric propulsion system concepts already used in big and powerful ships like Wärtsilä Electric Propulsion are migrating to pleasure boats.

I find the Greenline's electric/diesel powertrain to be more important innovation in this type of boat, primary and perhaps the disruptive change, than how the electricity is generated or provided which is a secondary issue.

I like the idea that the propulsion can be generated directly by electric motor or directly by diesel engine.

I like the idea that you do not have to install and run two separate diesel engines to have propulsion and generate electricity … one would need a second diesel engine for redundancy only, not for the functionality.

I like the idea that the powertrain can be driven by renewable sources of electric energy, whatever they might be now or in future, but do not depend on them exclusively.

I like the options that this approach provides … well, until the fuel cell is perfected and feasible …

 

[Art]

Nice electric boat video's: Videos | ReGen Hybrid Electric Marine Power

www.regennautic.com

Way I see it:

Currently limited available duration of electric batt power, as well as the required full recharge time span and the recharge-equipment costs makes these boats seem suspect regarding what I believe would be the overall initial and ongoing cost of the system, as compared to its "real" efficiency. In other words, besides being fairly "green" during use, but not "green" at all during most techniques of batt recharge, what cost factor would prompt expensive boats such as this to become a mainstay toward sales in the Pleasure Boat Industry?

However, once system is installed then I imagine better batteries could be installed when/if batt tech reaches new levels of quick recharge and power to weight ratios. Each item throughout using fossil fuel powered engines to charge batteries to turn electric engines to rotate props have automatically inherent efficiency loss ratios at every step of the game.

Now, if there were some way to get solar energy, wind energy, and wave motion to amply recharge the batts... then I believe these electric power systems could become real winners!

I do not mean to be a naysayer - Just a realist to current facts of physics regarding available selections of equipment at hand.

I always wish the electric boat industry worlds of success... but... currently I see some really, really big hurdles to somehow overcome.

 

[THD]

I spent almost 2 years working a hybrid design, approx. 56'. I spent a lot of time with Bill Crealock on design and engineering, a lot of time with his design engineer and about two weeks in Atlanta at Siemens specing (?) out systems. Siemens has worked on electric boats since about 1890, they still haven't found a reason to build one. At the end of the day, we could find no practical benefit to a hybrid system. It still takes the same HP (or Kw), to move a given mass through the water, no matter the source of the energy consumed. Unlike Greenline, we were looking at a system where the diesel was used only to drive a generator. Propulsion was always electric, i.e. the diesel produced electricity to drive the shafts. There was no "switching" between the two. There were no significant fuel savings, even the Siemens engineers admitted that 3-5% fuel savings would be the best obtainable. Running on batteries was just a ridiculous concept as shown by the Greenline, 10 miles at 6-5 knots? We calculated about the same and that was with a massive, and I mean massive, battery bank. There was some ability to lessen the complexity. A 56' trawer will twins will also usually have two generators as well, ay a 20kw and an 8 kw. We came up with a system that only had two diesels, one "propulsion" generator driving two electric motored and one generator driving everything else electric, but not directly. The generator only charged batteries and the entire house system was run off the batteries through inverters.

Oddly enough, the biggest benefit we found was that a hybrid system, at least on a 56", could take up about 70-75% of the space of a traditional direct drive, thus making a lot of midships, full beam space available for living area. The engines can be placed anywhere in the ER, both enclosed in full sound shields. The electric engines on each shaft were only abour 26" x 18"x12". So the area normally taken up by the diesel in front of the shaft was no longer ER.

In our design, the additional cost, over a traditional system, was between $150K and 200K. That cost just could not be justified.

 

[Art]

I spent almost 2 years working a hybrid design, approx. 56'. I spent a lot of time with Bill Crealock on design and engineering, a lot of time with his design engineer and about two weeks in Atlanta at Siemens specing (?) out systems. Siemens has worked on electric boats since about 1890, they still haven't found a reason to build one. At the end of the day, we could find no practical benefit to a hybrid system. It still takes the same HP (or Kw), to move a given mass through the water, no matter the source of the energy consumed. Unlike Greenline, we were looking at a system where the diesel was used only to drive a generator. Propulsion was always electric, i.e. the diesel produced electricity to drive the shafts. There was no "switching" between the two. There were no significant fuel savings, even the Siemens engineers admitted that 3-5% fuel savings would be the best obtainable. Running on batteries was just a ridiculous concept as shown by the Greenline, 10 miles at 6-5 knots? We calculated about the same and that was with a massive, and I mean massive, battery bank. There was some ability to lessen the complexity. A 56' trawer will twins will also usually have two generators as well, ay a 20kw and an 8 kw. We came up with a system that only had two diesels, one "propulsion" generator driving two electric motored and one generator driving everything else electric, but not directly. The generator only charged batteries and the entire house system was run off the batteries through inverters.

Oddly enough, the biggest benefit we found was that a hybrid system, at least on a 56", could take up about 70-75% of the space of a traditional direct drive, thus making a lot of midships, full beam space available for living area. The engines can be placed anywhere in the ER, both enclosed in full sound shields. The electric engines on each shaft were only abour 26" x 18"x12". So the area normally taken up by the diesel in front of the shaft was no longer ER.

In our design, the additional cost, over a traditional system, was between $150K and 200K. That cost just could not be justified.

Thank You THD, Thank You! For posting this well developed and accurate accounting regarding electric powered pleasure craft.

From your tests and now in understandable format you prove what I've been saying due to my associate's and my deeply active research in trying our absolute best to find economic and efficiency reasons for electrical powered pleasure cruiser boats (see copy in my posts #26 and #40). I ask you for permission to quote your post in its entirety. Please advise.

Again, THANKS! - Art

 

[THD]

Art-FWIW, feel free. There are more than a few others who have reached the same conclusion.

One additional note, when the subject of hybrids comes up, someone always mentions diesel locomotives and big ships using a diesel-electric system (and they have for many years). There is a single reason a diesel-electric system is efficient in those applications-Torque. It takes massive amounts of torque to get a train or a ship moving. The torque curve on an electric motor is absolutely flat-it puts out the same torque at 2 RPM as at 2,000 RPM. That is what is needed to get such a huge mass moving.

 

[ranger58sb]

Oddly enough, the biggest benefit we found was that a hybrid system, at least on a 56", could take up about 70-75% of the space of a traditional direct drive, thus making a lot of midships, full beam space available for living area. The engines can be placed anywhere in the ER, both enclosed in full sound shields. The electric engines on each shaft were only abour 26" x 18"x12". So the area normally taken up by the diesel in front of the shaft was no longer ER.

In our design, the additional cost, over a traditional system, was between $150K and 200K. That cost just could not be justified.

I think I could be all over that kind of outcome: more living space and still potentially better/easier access to systems for routine maintenance and service? Two real staterooms in a 42' boat, instead of the "1-½" we have now? And one of those becoming full beam? Yee haw!

And probably being able to use the "genset" diesel to power the boat as a get-home?

What's not to like?

In a semi-production line of boats with hulls already designed for pods, and using electric pods... I wonder if costs could come down to be no more than traditional designs, or even a bit less, given the (probably?) smaller "drive" diesel?

-Chris

 

[Jobe]

Well, it looks like the US Navy has taken a different approach. They are now able to convert seawater to fuel! (yippee). Apparently the system pulls hydrogen and carbon from the seawater and viola. Still 10 or 12 years out before the system can make enough fuel for a ship to stay out without ever needing a port or tanker for refueling. Game changer for logistics and the fuel will run existing power plants (except for the nuke fleet of course).

 

[FF]

They are now able to convert seawater to fuel! (yippee).

Sounds like Popular Science and the flying cars of 1955.

Or the Browns Gas hoax that never seems to die.

 

[AusCan]

Hydrogen production from water has been possible for several decades; although it is currently much more cost efficient to produce it from hydrocarbons.

There are several different ways to produce it from water.

Simply heat water to 2500 degrees C (4532 F) and it spontaneously dissociates, separating hydrogen from oxygen. Building the pipework and control systems to handle the high temperature is the costly part.

The US military has also been making hydrogen for balloons since WW1 using ferrosilicon, hydrogen peroxide and water.

Like everything else, while we have cheap fossil fuels, other technology cannot compete.

 

[Jobe]

Well, what the Naval Research Lab announced was the conversion of seawater to hydrogen/co2 (I think) and then running the gas thru a cat converter of some kind to bring it to liquid fuel. Estimate 3-6 dollars a gallon for conversion at this time. Now to make the process more efficient to produce 'industrial' amounts. Very interesting.

 

[Ski in NC]

I think they were looking to make liquid fuel for aircraft and for carrier support ships- all liquid fuel gas turbines. The energy source would be the carrier nuclear reactors, which can make gobs of electricity. Not exactly free electricity, considering they are using expensive high enrichment fuel.

But it helps in logistics, as arranging fuel for that flotilla is a big PITA. For all except the carrier.

Not sure what exact reactions they use, but I bet a big part is electrolysis, which is not particularly efficient in the thermodynamic sense.

 

[Tad Roberts]

Some discussion of the Greenline here....

Greeline Hydrid

 

[FF]

>Like everything else, while we have cheap fossil fuels, other technology cannot compete.<

That will give the no efficient Green stuff about 5 centuries to catch upon price.

 

[Art]

>Like everything else, while we have cheap fossil fuels, other technology cannot compete.<

That will give the no efficient Green stuff about 5 centuries to catch upon price.

IMHO

Harnessing the power of "Fusion" is the best chance civilization has to economically electrically power the entire world. Many pitfalls exist as international scientists work toward cleanly and safely enabling Fusion-Heat to generate electric power.

It appears that until that time of history we are globally saddled with several sorts of dirty burning fossil fuels and dangerous nuclear energy as the most economical, readily available, and highly productive power sources. Of course clean(er) power sources such as ethanol, solar, geothermal, wind, waterfalls, dams, wave/tidal/current actions and the like are on the periphery; but not at all in ample availability or efficiency to power the entire world.

If Fusion Power can be developed into a safe, clean means to generate electricity then the stance of available electric power for humans on this planet will undergo a metamorphous of improvement and accessibility second to none.

That still leaves us with the problem of developing (inventing/creating) electric power units for boats that have acceptable weight ratios, duration of energy charge, ample travel distance, and quickness of recharge (while away from dock cruising or at stand still). Unless and until there suddenly becomes miraculous battery tech improvements alongside miraculous “green” recharging improvements... I see fossil fuel burning motors continuing to rule the pleasure boat industry for a long, long time.

Fusion power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Nomad Willy]

This kind of product is bought because it's vogue not more economical. I had a friend in AK that had a Prius and when I suggested it may not be cost effective he said something that equated to "someone's got to lead the way until they do become cost effective". Making a statement. Walt here on TF had one but he didn't keep it very long. Most of the people that have newish PU trucks or SUVs need then not at all but don't want to be seen with "my father's Oldsmobile".

That said we thought we didn't need radial tires but now can you imagine the mess the freeways would be if millions of cars were going down the freeways at 80mph on Bias ply tires? Fuel Injection? Too complicated, complex and expensive.

The people that actually HAVE things like hybrid boats are leading the way and suffering the limitations of the products but my friend in AK is probably right in that if somebody dosn't start the ball rolling man my not get ahead. The electric car at this time in history burns no gasoline but few mention how much coal it burns or what that costs to the electric car owner or the environment. Ethanol isn't cost effective either to the extent that it's stupid but somewhere somebody is saying "it's action in the right direction" and "no pain no gain". However at some point in time powerboats will almost certainly be electric. But for me now a FD boat w diesel power is the answer.

 

[hollywood8118]

Boy!! Not a very appealing bow. . . . reminds me of something from our Art Deco period.

that's funny...

it reminds me of the boats I used to build as a kid from the 1/2 gallon cardboard milk boxes!

HOLLYWOOD

 

[FlyWright]

Making a statement. Walt here on TF had one but he didn't keep it very long.

Partly true. Walt had an attack of "Patriotism" in Jan 2013 and bought a Ford Focus for running around town. The electronics (Microsoft) were such a disaster that he traded it in after 6 months and went back to leasing his 3rd Prius.

Last time I saw him, he drove me around San Diego in his new Prius, looking the part the Southern Californian liberal clogging up the fast lane at speeds just below the speed limit.

 

[Nomad Willy]

HA HA HA FlyWright,
He told us in a post some time ago he drove his old Prius 80MPH. And I see many of them going 75 (at least) on the freeway here in WA. If they were out for economy the'd be driving 55 RIGHT?

Unlike Walt I don't have attacks of patriotism .. at least in my shopping. Bought a new Jetta built in Mexico but I'll not be trading it in soon. It's turbo-gas and isn't far behind the VW diesels for fuel millage. It's powered by a new engine w/o a steel or iron exhaust manifold. The exhaust man is incorporated inside the aluminum cyl head. Has lots of power and averages over 30mpg. Some turbo-lag though. Wife's 2000 Golf gas turbo needs premium fuel but has far less turbo lag. I love my Jetta.

 

[CaptTom]

...Prius...clogging up the fast lane at speeds just below the speed limit.

OMG they do that here in the Northeast, too!

It's getting so I can recognize a Prius at about a quarter-mile out and change lanes before I get caught among all the cars swerving and braking to avoid it.

I must say, lately I've seen one or two of them going at or above the speed limit, so there's hope.

 

[Moonstruck]

Partly trhue. Walt had an attack of "Patriotism" in Jan 2013 and bought a Ford Focus for running around town. The electronics (Microsoft) were such a disaster that he traded it in after 6 months and went back to leasing his 3rd Prius.

Last time I saw him, he drove me around San Diego in his new Prius, looking the part the Southern Californian liberal clogging up the fast lane at speeds just below the speed limit.

We haven't heard much from Walt lately here on TF. The last I heard he was on hiatus working for Greenpeace ramming Japanese whaling ships with his IG. He had better watch that. They may not let him have another Pius. . . oops that's Prius.

 

[Moonstruck]

When you ask a Prius driver how fast he drives, he will say, "43 miles per gallon". I don't think they have speed-o-meters.

 

[FlyWright]

We haven't heard much from Walt lately here on TF. The last I heard he was on hiatus working for Greenpeace ramming Japanese whaling ships with his IG. He had better watch that. They may not let him have another Pius. . . oops that's Prius.

Yup! You should see him now in his full beard and Birkenstocks! Probably spending too much time at the oxygen and hookah bars to be able to post here.