Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-27-2016, 05:06 PM   #21
Moderator Emeritus
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Vessel Name: DOS PECES
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by seasalt007 View Post
This particular surveyor was a highly experienced diesel mechanic before he decided he was getting too old to turn wrenches. He also did a few years as a boat yard manager for a high quality boat yard.

He used a ball of string analogy when we last talked. Once you tear into a project you never know what else you are going to find that must be fixed too. Obtaining a meaningful estimate for corrections is impossible due to the other issues that may be discovered during the correction process.

So...a few hours ago I notified the broker that I was still very much interested in the boat and would close once the seller corrected every recommendation to my satisfaction. I will not buy a boat that I have to start spending on from day one.
Sounds like a reasonable approach, except for the last sentence.

Having the owner fix the survey issues limits your risk, and puts the onus on the owner to deliver to you a boat free of defects.

As far as putting money into a boat you just bought, well.... There are always things you want to spend money on for your boat, but I agree that you should not have to catch up on the previous owners deferred maintenance, unless the price reflects the costs involved in that.

As I indicated before...If you are paying on the high side then it would be expected to have a defect free boat at closing. If you are paying on the low side then the current owner might have agreed to the price based on his not having to do or pay for anything more. Your negotiation with the owner will reveal his thoughts, and also how badly he wants to sell the boat.

Either way, with a 500K boat you're loking at maybe 10% of the value and probably less, so it is not big money in the overall scheme of things. If I were a buyer I would not run from the boat if you cannot negotiate everything you want. If I were a seller I would not let a cash in hand buyer walk away for that amount of money either.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788 Dos Peces
Seward, Alaska - La Paz, Baja California Sur
https://maps.findmespot.com/s/XLJZ#history/assets
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 06:59 PM   #22
Guru
 
seasalt007's Avatar
 
City: Punta Gorda, FL
Vessel Name: Aweigh
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 42
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna View Post
Um, then I don't think you should buy a boat!
Please Donna (& Kevin). I'll take day two to start spending.
seasalt007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 08:56 PM   #23
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,791
Any boat that has not been maintained is a financial disaster waiting to happen, UNLESS you have the time and the skills to do it yourself. Neglecting regular maintenance is the fastest way to kill a boat. This guy lied to you with his "better than new" b.s.

Why are you still looking at it?
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 09:19 PM   #24
Senior Member
 
gsholz's Avatar
 
City: Out and About
Vessel Model: Sold-GB 52 Europa, Queenship 59, Tolly 45
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 484
Long lists of items during survey should not scare you particularly if it is a larger boat. I had a NEW 59' boat from a high quality yard surveyed and got a long list of items that needed addressing.

For me it comes down to ensuring that the hull, decks, engines, generator and electrical systems are sound. Not being able to run the engines at WOT at the appropriate RPM or the generator under load would be show stoppers that the owner needs to address.
gsholz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 09:28 PM   #25
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
City: Sydney
Vessel Name: Sojourn
Vessel Model: Integrity 386
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xsbank View Post
Any boat that has not been maintained is a financial disaster waiting to happen, UNLESS you have the time and the skills to do it yourself. Neglecting regular maintenance is the fastest way to kill a boat. This guy lied to you with his "better than new" b.s.

Why are you still looking at it?
It was on Yachtworld,maybe a broker wrote the advert, if so, go easy on the owner for the silly "puffery" of the broker.
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 09:48 PM   #26
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsholz View Post
Long lists of items during survey should not scare you particularly if it is a larger boat. I had a NEW 59' boat from a high quality yard surveyed and got a long list of items that needed addressing.

For me it comes down to ensuring that the hull, decks, engines, generator and electrical systems are sound. Not being able to run the engines at WOT at the appropriate RPM or the generator under load would be show stoppers that the owner needs to address.
One big difference, yours came with a warranty.

I know some yards have long lists on new boats. We've had ours surveyed at purchase and never encountered that.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 10:27 PM   #27
Guru
 
City: Here
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,940
What is wrong with a diesel running at 195 degrees ? Mine ran at that temp for 20,000hrs.

PS. That's not an unusually long list for a used boat and shorter than some new boats I've surveyed.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 12:21 AM   #28
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,791
Whatever a broker writes will presumably be read by the seller?
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 07:52 AM   #29
Guru
 
Daddyo's Avatar
 
City: Cruising East Coast US
Vessel Name: Grace
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,420
I have many issues with that survey and surveyor. The idea of using engine gauges to determine engine temp is the most glaring red flag. As previously stated if the actual temp was 195 there is nothing wrong with that at all. Why would the generator issue have to be fixed before a 150 mile delivery? Analog gauges are notoriously unreliable and often jump usually only needing remaking all of the connections. Since when did heat shrunk connections become a requirement? If the is true we all have hundreds of hours of work for us on our older boats etc...
__________________
Cruiser
Esse Quam Videri
Daddyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 08:14 AM   #30
Guru
 
City: Northport
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,046
"This particular surveyor was a highly experienced diesel mechanic before he decided he was getting too old to turn wrenches. He also did a few years as a boat yard manager for a high quality boat yard."


IMO - this description does not match the vague list which was produced.
Certainly a highly experienced diesel mechanic would have offered a more concise list of issues and also their potential corrective actions. Perhaps relook at how and who referred your support folks to make absolutely sure they are completely objective for your goals.
smitty477 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 08:25 AM   #31
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48 (sold)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,186
Only two people on this thread have seen the vessel. They both said walk. A few have said 195F is just fine. What is not said - is that a stable temperature or was it climbing. Anyone here have same model JDs? What do they run?

So many questions ---
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 08:31 AM   #32
Guru
 
North Baltic sea's Avatar
 
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 37
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,107
Buyers will be less, than the sellers!!!


I think it the fault of the list was too much. The market has a lot of boats, may take time to find the gem that is loved and it is in good condition and ready to give up for a good price.


If you paid to surveys, so I think it fair to be more of you...


I think the surveys list will tell you that he is not taken care of and this should be reflected in a significant reduction in the price vs the same boat type, age etc, ...
North Baltic sea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 08:45 AM   #33
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post

So many questions ---
That's the gist of where he's left at this point by the survey and just the general situations. Questions to which the answers could be widely variable. If the boat had been sitting as long as it appears without use, it probably shouldn't have even been run without being checked further and some things addressed. At any rate he doesn't know whether the engines are running hot or not, can achieve WOT or not, are in reasonably good shape or not. Same with the generator. He was left with more questions than answers.

Now, has the OP fallen in love with this specific boat and is he determined now to buy it regardless? I don't know. I know we're not talking about a $50k boat, but a $500k boat which I would hold to different standards, although the purchaser of the $500k boat might be better prepared to deal with unexpected costs.

He still needs an engine survey in spite of what he's saying about the greatness of the surveyor. At least he hasn't relayed to us what one would expect from an engine survey.

Also, he mentions surveyor's verbal comment. Is he working off verbal or the written survey?

At this point it's all a big gamble. It's either back up and get some things fixed and a good engine survey after those items required to have one are fixed, pretty much back to square one or it's make an offer based on worse case, buy boat as is, and take it to a good boatyard. If $500k is a fair price in good condition (I don't know if it is or not), then with all the unknowns, if I was going to gamble it would probably be at $400k, but then I'm not a gambler. A true gambler might go $450k. I personally don't like the unknown.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 08:52 AM   #34
Guru
 
cafesport's Avatar
 
City: Miami
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 800
I think I know the boat you are looking at. Might give Snead island boat works a call and get them to give you some quotes. If your surveyor doesn't think she'll make the trip you might want to contact Capt Bill, I'm sure he'd be able to offer considerable input and perhaps even help you move her. For the record I don't know Capt bill other than here on tf , Snead I've used since the 70's. They are expensive and I think they are worth it. Good luck with her.
__________________
Via iOS.
cafesport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 09:38 AM   #35
Guru
 
TDunn's Avatar
 
City: Maine Coast
Vessel Name: Tortuga
Vessel Model: Nunes Brothers Raised Deck Cruiser
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 889
Well much of that list is trivial even the stuff in part 1 with the possible exception of the PSS shaft seal. Installing a new bellows can be costly depending on the available space. Without a comment about why/where the seal was leaking that can't be assessed. If the rudder has a stuffing box all that is needed to stop a leak is to tighten the stuffing box or in the worst case replace the packing. Neither is a big deal. Changing the elements in the racors and draining their bowls is something that you should be able to do under way. It is a totally trivial maintenance item to do at the dock. Of more concern is why there is sediment in the filter bowls, which your surveyor seems not to have mentioned.

As far as the numerous comments about rust/corrosion I would like to have seen pictures to determine if he was talking about some inconsequential surface staining or actual structural corrosion.

As far as the engine and generator operating temps are concerned you would need to know what the normal (i.e., spec.) operating temperatures are. My diesel runs at 193 which is right in the middle of the "normal" operating range according to the manual.

Frankly the vast majority of stuff on that list consists of things that an owner should be able to fix without help.

It sounds as if you actually want a new boat with full warranty. Perhaps that is what you should be looking at.
TDunn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 10:05 AM   #36
Guru
 
danderer's Avatar
 
City: Newark, DE
Vessel Name: Infinity
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 48
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
A $500K vessel should not have a laundry list like you described. Once into this size and price range pristine condition should be expected.
Well, that depends on the specific boat (which the OP has chosen not to share).

I'd expect a $500K Bayliner to be pristine. If I found a Fleming for $500K I'd expect something different. Both might or might not be reasonable deals depending on my needs/wants.

I've always felt the more info one can give when asking a question, the better the quality of the answers.
danderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 10:09 AM   #37
Guru
 
seasalt007's Avatar
 
City: Punta Gorda, FL
Vessel Name: Aweigh
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 42
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 628
The broker just called and the seller is willing to fix the minor issues but not the shaft seal, engine or genset issues.

So, I am rejecting the boat.

Thanks for all the comments. You are a great bunch of guys and a girl...Donna.

Now I am going to continue my search for a boat that has been maintained like I would do it.
seasalt007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 12:01 PM   #38
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,323
Good choice. That'd be my cue to walk too.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 01:32 PM   #39
Guru
 
City: Satsuma FL
Vessel Name: No Mo Trawla
Vessel Model: Hurricane SS188
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,300
Doing a little sleuthing based on "better than new" in Florida, I found the boat on YW. The pics certainly don't look like maintenance has been deferred but then pics are supposed to show the boat in the best way possible. Actually, for a boat that size and brand quality, it looked like a bargain. Did the surveyor give you an indication of what comparable boats sold for? If you used a buyers broker, they might provide it from soldboats.com.

For the most part, I agree with the actions you are taking but think asking for the price reduction is preferable to having the seller fix it, specially, if the seller is an estate, a widow or someone with medical issues.

You reported you had at least one other boat you had surveyed so it must be hitting for $2K or more per shot every time you go through this drill so how many times do you want to do it? Maybe a little more negotiations is called for.

Oh, and this boat is certainly way above my pay grade!
Donsan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 01:56 PM   #40
Moderator Emeritus
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Vessel Name: DOS PECES
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,266
If it were me buying a cruising boat...

I would much rather buy a boat that was activly cruised than one with low hours.

The optimum seller would be folks that had used the heck out of the boat and were either moving up or retiring from boating due to age related issues.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788 Dos Peces
Seward, Alaska - La Paz, Baja California Sur
https://maps.findmespot.com/s/XLJZ#history/assets
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012