Help...dead in the water, air in fuel lines!!!
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Cigatoo
Guru
Take a 1/2 hour break and than start over. Go back to where you are certain that you have fuel and work forward bleeding and looking for air at each point.
menzies
Guru
Two years ago during annual maintenance (replacing filters) air got into my starboard engine. I got it to start eventually by using the manual paddle on the block. I know you have tried this, but I remember having to pump for over ten minutes. Do you think you pumped enough?
Comodave
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On my 225s, I don’t crack the injector lines but just bleed the filters and start them at full throttle and they pick up and start running rough then smooth out. But it does take forever to bleed the filters.
Ski in NC
Technical Guru
Crack nuts on all six inj lines. Throttle to full. Roll starter for ten sec, pause for a minute to let it cool and batts to recover. Repeat. When you see fuel spit from loose nuts, snug them back up and try starter as above.
No fuel will go through inj lines unless engine is rotating.
No fuel will go through inj lines unless engine is rotating.
johnma
Guru
I know its a different brand engine, but i was at a Yanmar seminar yesterday and the dealer rep said that if an engine runs dry it can take over 500 manual strokes on the plunger to get all of the lines filled and bled.
John
John
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Steve91T
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Made it home! Thank you guys so much for the amazing quick help.
Docking on one engine with no thrusters was really stressful but to my surprise there were about a half a dozen people waiting for me to help me get into the slip. It couldn’t have gone any better, honestly.
So I’m going to start working on this engine once again. To recap, I was able to finally push fuel from the tank to the manifold, then from there I bled the block mounted fuel filters. And I have cracked open the line that feeds the injection pump at the pump itself and have fuel coming out when priming. So the pump is getting fuel. I removed the furthest injector line at the top of the pump and have cranked and cranked We tried 10 second bursts with a cool down. We tried 1/2 throttle, we tried full throttle, we tried idle. We even tried it with the electric pump on and me pumping the plunger. Not a drop out fuel came out of the injector pump.
The Right engine started with no problem once we found out we have to bleed the fuel filters. I think I need to focus on the shut off solenoid. Is it possible I damaged something in the pump by running it dry?
Again thank you so much. We are leaving early in the morning and I really hope to get this figured out before I have to leave.
Any other advice would be greatly appreciated.
Docking on one engine with no thrusters was really stressful but to my surprise there were about a half a dozen people waiting for me to help me get into the slip. It couldn’t have gone any better, honestly.
So I’m going to start working on this engine once again. To recap, I was able to finally push fuel from the tank to the manifold, then from there I bled the block mounted fuel filters. And I have cracked open the line that feeds the injection pump at the pump itself and have fuel coming out when priming. So the pump is getting fuel. I removed the furthest injector line at the top of the pump and have cranked and cranked We tried 10 second bursts with a cool down. We tried 1/2 throttle, we tried full throttle, we tried idle. We even tried it with the electric pump on and me pumping the plunger. Not a drop out fuel came out of the injector pump.
The Right engine started with no problem once we found out we have to bleed the fuel filters. I think I need to focus on the shut off solenoid. Is it possible I damaged something in the pump by running it dry?
Again thank you so much. We are leaving early in the morning and I really hope to get this figured out before I have to leave.
Any other advice would be greatly appreciated.
Solly
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Are you getting fuel out of the injector pump ?? Crack an injector line (shortest) at the pump and crank. If fuel there crack the line at the injector. Aim is to get fuel to at least 1 injector then another and so on. After a couple it should fire and burp the rest.
Lou_tribal
Guru
Not my intend to make a bad joke, but welcome aboard for your first panic moment !
Now the advice may look stupid or arrogant, but one lesson to learn there is get to know your boat and what to do in this circumstances, well I guess you know know
Don't worry almost of all us I guess had this type of panic moment once or twice
L
Now the advice may look stupid or arrogant, but one lesson to learn there is get to know your boat and what to do in this circumstances, well I guess you know know
Don't worry almost of all us I guess had this type of panic moment once or twice
L
OP
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Steve91T
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She runs!!!!!
I think she was just being a cranky old girl. We said goodbye to our friends and took a nap. Woke up, grabbed a beer and gave her a whirl. It sounded like 1 cylinder was starting to come to life. So I ran down to the engine room, turned on the priming pump and pumped the plunger and kept trying. She got better and better and eventually would run for a few seconds then die, even with lots of throttle. Eventually she held on, protested a little but kept going. After a few minutes she calmed down and now purrs like a kitten.
I truly don’t get it. I don’t understand why it had an air lock or something in the pump and why just waiting a couple of hours cleared it up.
But....I learned a ton. And even though my friends are going to miss the Super Bowl, and I feel bad for that, it happened in a safe, calm, area and we were able to eventually get home.
I definitely leaned a lot. But I still need to figure out what caused this air lock.
I think she was just being a cranky old girl. We said goodbye to our friends and took a nap. Woke up, grabbed a beer and gave her a whirl. It sounded like 1 cylinder was starting to come to life. So I ran down to the engine room, turned on the priming pump and pumped the plunger and kept trying. She got better and better and eventually would run for a few seconds then die, even with lots of throttle. Eventually she held on, protested a little but kept going. After a few minutes she calmed down and now purrs like a kitten.
I truly don’t get it. I don’t understand why it had an air lock or something in the pump and why just waiting a couple of hours cleared it up.
But....I learned a ton. And even though my friends are going to miss the Super Bowl, and I feel bad for that, it happened in a safe, calm, area and we were able to eventually get home.
I definitely leaned a lot. But I still need to figure out what caused this air lock.
Attachments
C lectric
Guru
You might try installing a low pressure pressure guage just after the lift pump.
0-60psi. Too high and it may not show pressure well enough for this application.
Yes a bit of air will get in. Note the pressure attained while running once it settles down.
Do the same on the other engine and compare the pressure.
I strongly suggest calling American diesel and ask them what the minimum lift pump pressure should be.
My thought is that the lift pump may be pumping poorly. THat would affect the ability of the thing to pressurize the filters and the injection pump.
Just my guess.
0-60psi. Too high and it may not show pressure well enough for this application.
Yes a bit of air will get in. Note the pressure attained while running once it settles down.
Do the same on the other engine and compare the pressure.
I strongly suggest calling American diesel and ask them what the minimum lift pump pressure should be.
My thought is that the lift pump may be pumping poorly. THat would affect the ability of the thing to pressurize the filters and the injection pump.
Just my guess.
next time loosen all the injector lines. with only one lose it will take for ever to get the air out of the pump. another thing that can help is to get running out of a 5 gal bucket then reconnect it to the main lines once you have refilled the racor. start it up and run it for about 30 seconds then shut it down and refill the racor. repeat till the racor stops dropping in fuel level.
STB
Guru
Of all the jobs in boats ...including messing with heads and holding tanks ...priming the engines is my least favorite. There is no way around it but patience. And, although I've never run the tanks dry, that case takes way more patience than others, because the whole loop gets filled with air, putting a very large volume of air into the system, which ultimately needs to be pushed all the way out to the return. And, that's a lot of pumps on the lifter pump or a long wait with a primer pump -- and a lot of splatter to soak up along the way.
When one only lets a little air in, for example, when swapping a filter and then filling the new one up as much as possible, or fixing a fitting, the engines can often just push most of it out in a few cranks and get going to clear the rest.
But, when more air gets introduced, such as when swapping injectors, everything downstream from that point can have air in it. Sometimes I've been able to go right to a nearby "relative high point" and bleed it there, e.g. the next injector or highest injector. But, the least frustrating sequence seems to be to work it in order...start getting just ahead of where I introduced the air filled filled with fuel, and then work up from there.
In some cases, such as when I replaced some fuel lines, and let a bunch of air in, I was able to bleed it as the "next" major point, in that case, the primary fuel filter or the pump's bleed screw, without having to bleed all injectors. In other similar cases, I was less patient about bleeding the pump -- and pushed the air down the line to injectors and pump and had to bleed a bunch of different places.
My mechanic had more refined judgement than me. He'd know based upon the repair if he could "short cut" the process give it a few cranks, bleed in just one place local or a bit downstream from the repair, or bleed it systematically, step by step, until getting to the "next point" and maybe the "next next point" and finding free flowing fuel at both.
But, what I basically learned is that it is best to bleed more early on than later on. Turning over the engine moves air downstream. If it moves the last bit of air off to the return line -- great. But, if it moves it from a situation where one bleed point could get rid of it, and now it needs to be bled at multiple places -- not so good.
In the case of running a tank dry, I'd have bled at the input of filter until good (often times this can gravity feed). Then the other side of the filter, then the compressor pump, then the lowest injector, then the next one, and just worked up. That way, I wouldn't be cranking the engines a lot, or get frustrated. At least when I got to the end of the sequence, I'd *know* they'd start.
My engines are perkins. Yours might be Lehmans (while guessing). Each engine has a slightly different bleed sequence. It is in the owner's or workshop manual. If you don't have one for yours, yet, I'd grab one from the Internet. If a fuel gets dirty underway, you'll be in the same position of needing to bleed to to the swap. So, with everything else going on while underway, you want to be able to do it systematically and with confidence, even if it takes longer. I think, at the least.
The upshot is that the more air gets into the system, and the farther along the way that it makes its way into the system, the less likely you are to be able to "push it through" and the more likely it is that you'll save time and frustration and (and possibly making it worse before making it better) by doing it systematically.
As for why a couple of hours can make a difference. It could have been that the next attempt was the lucky one. It could also have been that some of the suction moved the air through. If your batteries got low from trying to start and got charged by the other alternator or genset, that might have remedied a 2ndary problem.
More than likely (in my estimation), the bouncing around underway caused the pockets of air to get shaken loose and move upward, where came together farther along the loop and were more easily expelled when starting. At least that's my guess.
When one only lets a little air in, for example, when swapping a filter and then filling the new one up as much as possible, or fixing a fitting, the engines can often just push most of it out in a few cranks and get going to clear the rest.
But, when more air gets introduced, such as when swapping injectors, everything downstream from that point can have air in it. Sometimes I've been able to go right to a nearby "relative high point" and bleed it there, e.g. the next injector or highest injector. But, the least frustrating sequence seems to be to work it in order...start getting just ahead of where I introduced the air filled filled with fuel, and then work up from there.
In some cases, such as when I replaced some fuel lines, and let a bunch of air in, I was able to bleed it as the "next" major point, in that case, the primary fuel filter or the pump's bleed screw, without having to bleed all injectors. In other similar cases, I was less patient about bleeding the pump -- and pushed the air down the line to injectors and pump and had to bleed a bunch of different places.
My mechanic had more refined judgement than me. He'd know based upon the repair if he could "short cut" the process give it a few cranks, bleed in just one place local or a bit downstream from the repair, or bleed it systematically, step by step, until getting to the "next point" and maybe the "next next point" and finding free flowing fuel at both.
But, what I basically learned is that it is best to bleed more early on than later on. Turning over the engine moves air downstream. If it moves the last bit of air off to the return line -- great. But, if it moves it from a situation where one bleed point could get rid of it, and now it needs to be bled at multiple places -- not so good.
In the case of running a tank dry, I'd have bled at the input of filter until good (often times this can gravity feed). Then the other side of the filter, then the compressor pump, then the lowest injector, then the next one, and just worked up. That way, I wouldn't be cranking the engines a lot, or get frustrated. At least when I got to the end of the sequence, I'd *know* they'd start.
My engines are perkins. Yours might be Lehmans (while guessing). Each engine has a slightly different bleed sequence. It is in the owner's or workshop manual. If you don't have one for yours, yet, I'd grab one from the Internet. If a fuel gets dirty underway, you'll be in the same position of needing to bleed to to the swap. So, with everything else going on while underway, you want to be able to do it systematically and with confidence, even if it takes longer. I think, at the least.
The upshot is that the more air gets into the system, and the farther along the way that it makes its way into the system, the less likely you are to be able to "push it through" and the more likely it is that you'll save time and frustration and (and possibly making it worse before making it better) by doing it systematically.
As for why a couple of hours can make a difference. It could have been that the next attempt was the lucky one. It could also have been that some of the suction moved the air through. If your batteries got low from trying to start and got charged by the other alternator or genset, that might have remedied a 2ndary problem.
More than likely (in my estimation), the bouncing around underway caused the pockets of air to get shaken loose and move upward, where came together farther along the loop and were more easily expelled when starting. At least that's my guess.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. S. Just had a thought... Maybe y'all got some Yankee air into the system. Once them Yankees get into your system, they're dad-gummed hard to git rid of...
Mr. S. Just had a thought... Maybe y'all got some Yankee air into the system. Once them Yankees get into your system, they're dad-gummed hard to git rid of...
Solly
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Bleeding a diesel has to be one of the most finicky jobs on a boat. Get a manual for sure.
Best to just start at the tank, make sure there is fuel at the filter. Then out of the filter, to the lift pump. Out of the lift pump to the filters on the engine. and out to the injection pump. And injection pump to the injectors. Each leg has to be a solid stream of fuel free of air.
My guess would be a bubble in the fuel moved enough to pass the fuel.
Best to just start at the tank, make sure there is fuel at the filter. Then out of the filter, to the lift pump. Out of the lift pump to the filters on the engine. and out to the injection pump. And injection pump to the injectors. Each leg has to be a solid stream of fuel free of air.
My guess would be a bubble in the fuel moved enough to pass the fuel.
BruceK
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As a proud Lehman owner, with all their features good (mostly) and less good, I`ve wondered if there are marine diesels,younger than 40+ years of age, which self bleed?
PS I`ve never had to use it but I saw in the engine bay of my diesel Peugeot 508, a pumping bulb which I imagine comes in handy if you run out of fuel.
PS I`ve never had to use it but I saw in the engine bay of my diesel Peugeot 508, a pumping bulb which I imagine comes in handy if you run out of fuel.
Last edited:
Airstream345
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1. Bleeding takes far longer than imagined.
2. The Super Bowl was a defensive game with little excitement, your friend missed very little.
3. You learned a lot, which will pay you back in the future
4. Nicely handled. You DIY’d a solution. Well played!
2. The Super Bowl was a defensive game with little excitement, your friend missed very little.
3. You learned a lot, which will pay you back in the future
4. Nicely handled. You DIY’d a solution. Well played!
78puget-trawler
Guru
When I got my boat with Lehman, had the boatyard change all filters before leaving for home, 4 hours away. Of course it didn't start right away. Opened the top of the eng mounted secondarys and topped them off after bleeding and took off after a few more tries. Another time I inadvertently pushed the shut down button when trying to start and it stuck closed. Took a while to figure that out, but finally did and boom off it went. The starter and shut down are right next to each other on the panel, nice planning there! I now keep a bottle lid taped over the shutdown button so I have to remove it to use it!
STB
Guru
78puget-trawler,
Reminds me of the time I shut off the fuel before leaving town for a while, which was unusual for me. Came back, opened the seacocks -- and forgot about the fuel valves. The boat ran surprisingly long on the return. Long enough to get out of the slip (Ouch!)
Fortunately, the wind was in my favor that day. I got blown gently to the main dock. I hopped off and walked the boat into the empty corner slip with a couple of ropes, and tried to bleed it and get going before any of the neighbors noticed (It didn't work...face-palm)
Reminds me of the time I shut off the fuel before leaving town for a while, which was unusual for me. Came back, opened the seacocks -- and forgot about the fuel valves. The boat ran surprisingly long on the return. Long enough to get out of the slip (Ouch!)
Fortunately, the wind was in my favor that day. I got blown gently to the main dock. I hopped off and walked the boat into the empty corner slip with a couple of ropes, and tried to bleed it and get going before any of the neighbors noticed (It didn't work...face-palm)
78puget-trawler
Guru
Well at least you remembered to open the water anyway. I wish I could say I have never forgot that... but I cant. Talk about face palm!
STB
Guru
In that boat, my generator had a seacock on the above-the-waterline discharge. I am religious about opening and closing the below-waterline seacocks with each use. But, I never actually closed the above-waterline discharge seacock, but for once a month when I exercised and checked them all. It was there just because the discharge is close to the water line, so I felt better having direct control over it.
I brought the boat in to the yard to have some work done. They performed a "courtesy inspection" of all seacocks. Guess what position they left the discharge in? Guess who didn't notice?
Guess how long it took my raw water pump seals to give out and spray the inside of the boat with salt water?
After starting the generator from the lower helm, I looked outside from the helm door for water (the discharge was right there). I didn't see any, so I shut it right down pronto. Maybe 10 seconds of run time. But, boy, did it make a mess.
Then I had to tell the crew what I'd done to explain our delayed departure for the cleaned up, and that we were going to be on the inverter for that trip. Face-palm.
I brought the boat in to the yard to have some work done. They performed a "courtesy inspection" of all seacocks. Guess what position they left the discharge in? Guess who didn't notice?
Guess how long it took my raw water pump seals to give out and spray the inside of the boat with salt water?
After starting the generator from the lower helm, I looked outside from the helm door for water (the discharge was right there). I didn't see any, so I shut it right down pronto. Maybe 10 seconds of run time. But, boy, did it make a mess.
Then I had to tell the crew what I'd done to explain our delayed departure for the cleaned up, and that we were going to be on the inverter for that trip. Face-palm.
Comodave
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We have a 6BT in our motorhome that will self bleed through a specific procedure. I don’t have it in front of me right now but you have to turn on the key and crank for so many seconds and then leave the ignition on for so many more seconds, repeat several times and the it will start.
FF
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"I was told to use starting fluid and that would be enough to fire motor and draw fuel into pump."
Who ever told you that was in the engine replacing business.
NO NO NO NO,,, NEVER on a warm engine.
Starting fluid is an alternate fuel to ONLY be used to assist a cold engine in very cold weather to fire.
If your engine is warm it is NOT the way to get it running again .
No idea why your engine took so long to prime , but a cure could be adding a day tank , Above the engine for gravity fuel feed.
For most an outboard rubber hand pump in the fuel line works fine.
Who ever told you that was in the engine replacing business.
NO NO NO NO,,, NEVER on a warm engine.
Starting fluid is an alternate fuel to ONLY be used to assist a cold engine in very cold weather to fire.
If your engine is warm it is NOT the way to get it running again .
No idea why your engine took so long to prime , but a cure could be adding a day tank , Above the engine for gravity fuel feed.
For most an outboard rubber hand pump in the fuel line works fine.
Comodave
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Using starting fluid can ruin an engine if not done correctly. I have done it during very cold weather but held my breath the whole time.
