Helm Replacement

[MTrader34]

Hi

I am new to the forum and trawler boating so I am hoping for some advice.. I have a 1981 Marine Trader 34 with a Syten hydraulic helm system that is leaking and needs to be replaced. So far I have seen a Seastar inboard steering system that looks like it will do the job. Does anyone out there have experience with helm replacement? Looking for advice on systems and installation - what works? Can you replace it yourself if you are generally handy? Any advice welcome.

 

[catalinajack]

Where is it leaking? Why can't the leak be repaired? Here's my experience with a system leak. We bought our boat in Florida and drove it back home to Maryland. Fluid weeped from the shaft slowly but constantly. As part of upgrading, new seals were installed. Still leaked as before. Based on a suggestion on this site, I installed a sintered bronze pipe plug in the steering case on the upper helm. This allowed the system to breathe with expansion and coontraction of the hydraulic fluid. Without this simple "pressre relief valve" my system would build pressre as the fluid heated up and force fluid past the seals. A 1/8 NPT Parker-made plug on Amazon costs $8.89. If your system is leaking at the shaft seal, you may want to try this first.

Hi

I am new to the forum and trawler boating so I am hoping for some advice.. I have a 1981 Marine Trader 34 with a Syten hydraulic helm system that is leaking and needs to be replaced. So far I have seen a Seastar inboard steering system that looks like it will do the job. Does anyone out there have experience with helm replacement? Looking for advice on systems and installation - what works? Can you replace it yourself if you are generally handy? Any advice welcome.

 

[mvweebles]

Years ago, I installed a hydraulic steering system to replace an ancient cable system. Hynautic helm pumps with remote pressure reservoir. Allowed me to install a hydraulic autopilot. I used Hynautic high pressure plastic hose with special 2-part end fittings that took some manhandling to assemble (in hindsight, a bench vice would have made life easier). At the time, I found almost everything at a West Marine Bargain Store so the gear was heavily discounted - the whole system was under $500 at the time. If I were to redo it today, I'd go with copper and double flare compression fittings instead of the hi-pressure hose as the fittings are pretty expensive and you need a lot of them. By the time I had everything installed including AP pump, fabricating various adaptors to install components, and tearing out old system, I had about 20-25 hours labor into it.

If I were in your shoes, once I realized how expensive replacement would be absent a lucky find at a long ago closed WM Bargain Store, I'd spend more time isolating and repairing the leak. Having a helm rebuilt is in the $350 range.

Sintered bronze full plug to allow system to breathe is an interesting suggestion. I had not heard that before. Thanks. Learn something every day

Good luck

Peter

 

[Codger2]

Sintered bronze full plug to allow system to breathe is an interesting suggestion.

I'm not sure I can buy into this as I was a hydraulics technician in the Navy & we were taught that "air" was the enemy. If the system can breath out doesn't it stand to reason that it can also breath in? I'm willing to be shown, though, as it's an interesting comment.

 

[koliver]

Hi

I am new to the forum and trawler boating so I am hoping for some advice.. I have a 1981 Marine Trader 34 with a Syten hydraulic helm system that is leaking and needs to be replaced. So far I have seen a Seastar inboard steering system that looks like it will do the job. Does anyone out there have experience with helm replacement? Looking for advice on systems and installation - what works? Can you replace it yourself if you are generally handy? Any advice welcome.

Some hears ago, with a Wagner S50 hydraulic steering system on the 37' sailboat I owned at the time, the distribution block at the pump sprang a leak. It was cracked across the aluminum block, between two of the hose connection points. It leaked to the ER floor, slowly, to make a mess, but it still functioned properly. As Wagner was local to me, I took it in for repairs. When they told me it couldn't be repaired but must be replaced, I looked for another solution. I ended up repairing with epoxy, which lasted well. I sold the boat 3 or 4 years later with no problems.
My next boat, the trawler, had the same Wagner S50 system. It failed in the same place, in the same way, so I fixied it in the same way. That fix lasted well, roughly 10 years. When the fixed leak failed again, I replaced the pump with a Raymarine system. The helm pumps are still from the original Wagner and are now 40 yrs old and performing well with no repairs necessary.

 

[catalinajack]

I'm not sure I can buy into this as I was a hydraulics technician in the Navy & we were taught that "air" was the enemy. If the system can breath out doesn't it stand to reason that it can also breath in? I'm willing to be shown, though, as it's an interesting comment.

Codger, I was skeptical for the same reason. I read about this fix on the Trawler Forum about three years ago and decided to give it a try. Why not for less than $10. All I can tell you is that directly after installation, the seals stopped leaking and the hydraulic steering kept working same as before. I did a little more research. Mine is a Capilano. Turns out the upper pump should be vented. It is an un-pressurized system. I think when the user turns the wheel, the pump provides the pressure.

 

[grahamdouglass]

Sintered bronze plug?

I fixed an upper helm seal on my Wagner system a couple of years ago. Does this mean it might be a good idea to use a sinitered bronze plug in my upper helm as a preventitive measure?

 

[catalinajack]

My experience is with a Capilano system so I can only attest to what works on them. Check your Wagner manual or call their tech line if they are still in business. If your seal is holding I would just wait. When I installed the sintered plug, the leak quit so there was no need to replace the seal again. Also, do a search for threads on this subject. You will find several discussions. I am not the only guy who has had success using this vented plug.

I fixed an upper helm seal on my Wagner system a couple of years ago. Does this mean it might be a good idea to use a sinitered bronze plug in my upper helm as a preventitive measure?

 

[C lectric]

Air entry into a motor or engine driven pump is a big deal. Can cause serious pump damage and erratic operation.. the Navy systems may have used something like an accumulator to allow for fluid expansion or contraction from temperature changes. That way the system could be sealed to atmosphere.

This is a far cry from those systems when the system is Capilano or Seastar.
They DO need to be able to breathe. As the fluid cools/heats, even just from from atmospheric temp. changes the fluid will expand / contract. If there is no place for that to occur then the fluid will be forced out past seals that if vented properly will not leak.

Take a look at the topmost helm. There should be a vent which is best done with a sintered bronze fitting as described. Allows air interchange, keeps dirt out.

The Hynautic systems are pressurized so are a bit different, not vented

Try the sintered bronze vent first.

A repair is likely all you need and will be far less than replacement of an entire system.

 

[mvweebles]

There are two different types of Hynautic/SeaStar hydraulic systems. One is a closed system with a separate pressurized reservoir. To fill this type, you open the reservoir and add oil there, then pressurize with a bicycle pump. This system is obviously not vented so should not use the vented bronze plug

The second type is not pressurized, but each helm pump is in an oil bath. There is a fill cap on each helm pump, though only the highest one should be opened. This one may benefit from a vented plug.


Peter

 

[MTrader34]

Thanks for all the interest and ideas. I do know that the Syten system I have is considered obsolete and non-repairable. My other concern is that the previous owners had been nursing it along for quite some time by adding seal sealer to the system. Given the critical nature of being able to effectively steer the boat, I think I will opt to replace it, despite the cost. The original system lasted 39 years, if I get close to that I will be a very happy boater. I have had some great advice and help from the folks at Boatsteer in sourcing a replacement system at a price that seems reasonable. I'm sure I will be back for advice as I work through the install. Stay tuned.

 

[boatpoker]

I fixed an upper helm seal on my Wagner system a couple of years ago. Does this mean it might be a good idea to use a sinitered bronze plug in my upper helm as a preventitive measure?

or drill a 1mm hole in the fill cap of the highest helm pump. Just like it should have been since day one.

 

[C lectric]

YES AND YES. You can use the sintered filter OR drill the hole.
The sintered filter will not allow dust though although in reality that should not be a problem at all.

Actually, mine has the wee hole and the system has worked fine for the last 40+ yrs.
The only leak was about 25 yrs ago when the cylinder rod seals wore out.