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Old 11-27-2022, 08:17 AM   #21
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L you have a huge advantage most of us don’t have. That is a large boat. For most of us spac is a major concern.
I’ve had both air and hydronic radiators. For boats <60’ think radiators make better sense. Have found you need to be especially careful nothing crushes or tears the tubing and it does take up considerable otherwise useful storage space as does the blowers. Agree it heats faster but usually we put it on and leave it on so an extra 15-30m doesn’t impact much. Once the boat is warm just leave it on at a low level. Science shows having you cool a small bit is helpful in inducing sleep so may turn it down further. But usually leave it low day and night. Have no issue wearing a fleece or vest during the day and stripping to sleep. Use less diesel and electricity. Much prefer the heat. Comes out at sole level and compared to reverse or air is <1/4 the noise. For the systems we’ve had the furnace comes on only if the coolant mix temperature falls. In a tight boat our experience suggests that means less diesel and electricity use than the cycling of air.
Moist heated air is more comfortable than dry for most people. Easier on the sinuses. Is perceived as warmer. I think also less temperature gradient between air at the overhead and sole. Cold air has less capacity to hold water which is why winter air is so dry. For most people best comfort is around 50%+/-10%. Hydronic radiator heat neither adds nor subtract s moisture. Most boats have hoods over the cooker and extraction fans in the heads so cooking and showers add little. Unless you never get out of the pilot house or boat the amount respiration adds is not usually uncomfortable and just airing the boat out on rare occasion suffices. Avoiding getting the boat too dry prevents wood from shrinking and caulking from cracking. Other than storage we don’t dry the boat out during winter. Do it then to prevent mold. Of course during summer want the boats air dry as can be .
Winter boating is much harder than summer. Having some humidity in the air is more comfortable. Allows less cycling. Hydronic radiators allow the least noise except for radiant stove heat or drip heaters. Many of those have a pipe to supply external air for combustion to avoid losing heated air and as an attempt to keep moisture in the air. Many of those add on a hydronic coil in an attempt to supply more even heat throughout the boat. But end of day for most of us a burner outside the living space running hydronic radiators is the most comfortable heat.
We made a different decision for our house. But a house isn’t a boat. For the house we use geothermal heating air. The air is highly filtered and there’s a huge amount of registers hidden here and there. All pumps are remote so there’s no noise in the living spaces. Given the amount of registers air flow is near constant at a very low flow so imperceptible and without draftiness nor major fluctuations in temperature. The house is insulated at a level that far exceeds the boat so per cubic foot heat and cold transfer is minimal. Houses are different than boats. In my mind a metal boat with ocean rated double pane glass is easier to heat and cool than grp. Wood is also a better thermal barrier. Coring is of some help but has its own set of problems. So for the average 40-60’ grp boat think best set up is hydronic radiators with reverse AC as a backup.
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Old 11-27-2022, 08:34 AM   #22
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I suggest you consider May 1 at the earliest. It snows from October into May. April 1 is still full-blown winter in the northern Great Lakes region. The ski hills are still open, and snow is on the ground. The North Channel is still frozen, you have a lot of ice flows in Lake Michigan and Huron and nothing is open. No dock facilities or fuel.
May 1 you may still find some ice. Expect a lot of rain and fog and sketters for the month of May. Even into June, expect to need heat in the Northeastern Lakes region. North Channel is the first to freeze and the last to thaw. Personally, I would start the trip on June 1 if I had radar.
You can go earlier by skipping the North Channel and Trent Severn and go with the current and wind thru Lake Erie to Buffalo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:I...Lake_Huron.jpg
Hi Pierre - your comments are so helpful to us! Thank you!
We are not new to boating and have lived on and cruised the Maine coast for most of my life. Also, I spent several years in the North Atlantic with the Coast Guard and have seen lots of ice and big seas........however, I've never spent any time on the Great Lakes! In fact, at 69, the first time I ever stood on the shores of a Great Lake was this past fall when we flew out to Sturgeon Bay to look at this boat!! Standing on the beach at the east end of the SB canal was truly an eye opener for me.......fresh water, and you can't see across it!! Very strange sight for me!!

Anyway, we knew we had the winter to garner more knowledge of that area and so have joined the AGLCA (America's Great Loop Cruisers Association). This would hook us up with people far more knowledgeable (like yourself) and that, will be great! Even having the experience (long ago) of huge ocean waves, cold weather and ice, and having friends that actually worked the case of the Edmund Fitzgerald, I stood on the beach in Sturgeon Bay with some trepidation!! I have a huge respect for the power of weather and water and at my age don't want to subject my wife or myself to dangerous times on any body of water - salt or fresh!! Again, Pierre, thanks for your insight!

Joining this Forum has been great for us and again, I thank you all for the kind suggestions and help!

Happy Holidays to you all!

John
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Old 11-27-2022, 10:12 AM   #23
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Slainte 1, if you have never spent time in the Great Lakes and are retired, I would strongly consider spending most of the summer in the Northern Lakes on your way back. I would also consider leaving around June 20th.
Head straight across Lake Michigan and begin your tour at Frankfort Michigan and go north from there. Heading across you won't see land for several hours.
The reason I say June 20th is that Lake Michigan experiences what is called turn-over. Remember, you are in fresh water. Fresh water is at its highest density at 39.4 deg F and does not change due to salinity. At the end of winter, most of the deep lake is at 39.4 deg but the surface is colder and therefore lighter density. With the warming sun the surface starts to approach 39.4 but the water just under it is still colder. What happens is suddenly the dense water sinks in a domino effect and is replaced by the colder water just below it. The result is instant fog and often local bad weather. You go from sweaters to winter coats in five minutes. Once the entire lake reaches 39.4 degrees (Early June in Northern Lake Michigan) the surface water rapidly warms, and summer is upon you. 95% of my 25,000+ miles of cruising are in the Great lakes
I was living on Lake Superior when the Edmund Fitzgerald went down. We were evacuated and had no cottage to go back to. Freezing spray had destroyed everything for 100 yards inland. That white hurricane was a real eye opener and molded my choice of boats from then on. The lakes more than once have reduced me to mere existence in my boat and that was in the summer.
Every month you might need heat.
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Old 11-27-2022, 10:48 AM   #24
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Pierre - Fore warned is fore armed!! Experience is certainly the best teacher!! All this is very interesting to me. Our goal was to be able to get the boat back into Maine waters before mid-July and of course NOT knowing some of this information made the thought of getting back an easy one..........We knew we had to start someplace in the spirit of "information gathering" this winter; your post qualifies as great information, which of course adds to our knowledge base and thus will effect our decisions going forward.

You mentioned spending summer on the "way back". It was not our thought to go back north this year. The boat will be moored most of the time in Wiscasset Harbor Maine, BUT, I certainly want to spend time in the North Channel at some point! The problem is where to store the boat - if back in Sturgeon Bay, it mean another late start to the boating season.......hmmmmm, lots to think about!

One thought was to get the boat back to the east coast around July - head up to Maine for the rest of the summer, then head south to Charleston where we have family - then in the early spring head north again. If we decided to get back up to the North Channel at that point, we'd have to probably keep the boat back in Sturgeon Bay.......again, that means a late start for boating........

LOL - I think we live in the wrong place!! We've certainly got to do MUCH more thinking about the itinerary!!

Thanks again - talk soon!
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Old 11-27-2022, 10:56 AM   #25
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I heated my boat in Seward Alaska all winter long for several years as a stayaboard.

On this boat I chose forced air Wallas furnaces and was very happy with that choice.

Why???

A forced air furnace can be configured to bring in some outside air creating a fresh air exchange. This reduces humidity inside and makes for a nice fresh smelling boat. That is just not possible with a hydronic unit, regardless of their popularity. This is a personal choice thing, I understand. There are good arguments for and against both hydronic and forced air technology.

I chose Wallas units because of their system of operation, which makes them extremely quiet, reliable, and offers a steady heat output.

I also chose them because they are designed to run on #2 diesel, something REALLY important for long term reliability.

Here is how it all works....

A furnace operates using generally two principals. One is a nozzle blowing a mist of diesel into a high speed stream of combustion air. This is how most heaters work. This creates a loud noise not unlike a jet engine. This is normal for these type of units.

The Wallace uses basically a pan that diesel is dripped into, and that diesel supplied combustion air. This makes for a much quieter operation.

Most diesel furnaces turn on and off to regulate the heat output. This creates a varying room temperature centered around the thermostat set point. The challenge on a boat is they are not sealed as well as a house and the cooling off part of the normal operation creates a slight negative pressure and pulls in cold air creating more of a drafty feeling.

The wallace modulates the heat output and in reality never turns off in normal operation. This creates a steady temperature in the boat similar to that of a fireplace or wood stove in a house.

Most furnaces are in reality engineered and manufactured for the trucking industry. Their claim for fame is that they reduce inefficient engine idiling time in large trucks. They are designed to run on winter grade diesel and have a tendency to carbon up on a diet of #2 diesel which is what we run our boats on.

The wallace is designed for marine usee
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Old 11-27-2022, 11:09 AM   #26
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Slainte 1, September is still a great month in the Great Lakes. The opposite effect happens in the fall and delays winter. It is not a long-drawn-out trip from Georgian Bay back to the NY area. You need not go back to Sturgeon Bay for haul out. You can easily get back to Maine for some cruising by leaving the Northern Lakes in mid-August.
Once you cruise the Northern Great Lakes you will be damaged goods because you will want to come back every summer. it's an expensive trip to come back. I would suggest that you not waste the opportunity that this trip presents. You could leave as early as May 1st but if you leave May 1st, you will never want to return. If you leave June 20th, you will never want to leave.
If you were not set on getting back to Maine this summer but chose Charleston, then you could leave in mid-September and enjoy an unbelievable color season heading south.
I am bringing my boat back from New Orleans this spring to Cleveland Ohio, I may not make it back this summer. I might spend the summer in the Northern lakes and head back south through Lake Michigan to the Gulf coast again for winter.
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Old 11-27-2022, 11:34 AM   #27
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I am following this thread with great interest as I will be spending summers in the Northern Lakes region.
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Old 11-27-2022, 01:39 PM   #28
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Pierre you are a wealth of knowledge!!
My wife just said - looks like we have to change our plans!! LOL. I knew this would be the winter of education for the both of us!

I am brand new to this Forum so don't know if I can/should be private messaging.

All the information about the heating system has been a great help, but I'm thinking I should stop the Thread as I have plenty to think about ?? Just don't even know how to stop this one and open up a new one about the North Channel and all that goes with cruising up there........

I"ll figure it out at some point!

Thanks again and talk soon!

John
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Old 11-27-2022, 01:44 PM   #29
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Pierre you are a wealth of knowledge!!
My wife just said - looks like we have to change our plans!! LOL. I knew this would be the winter of education for the both of us!

I am brand new to this Forum so don't know if I can/should be private messaging.

All the information about the heating system has been a great help, but I'm thinking I should stop the Thread as I have plenty to think about ?? Just don't even know how to stop this one and open up a new one about the North Channel and all that goes with cruising up there........

I"ll figure it out at some point!

Thanks again and talk soon!

John
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Old 11-27-2022, 03:22 PM   #30
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Interesting information on the wallas. Sounds like an excellent unit. Having lived for several decades with various different brands of hydronic/radiato units I’ve not noticed any fluctuations in temperature at all. The furnace responses to the temperature of the circulating fluid not to the ambient temperature of the ambient air that the zone thermostats are responding to to my understanding. Yes it takes awhile for that fluid to heat and then the valves open and the fluid starts to circulate. Even when it’s not circulating the fluid in the radiators is damn hot as I found out unfortunately. It’s hot enough often it’s circulating and heating the boat with the furnace off. The small fans behind the radiators can be placed down by the sole. Compared to the forced air units I’ve had (two different espar) the heat is much less drafty and fluctuates in temperature much less. I was quite surprised you think the opposite. Maybe the Wallace is different.
Do agree hydronic units can carbon up. Have found it’s more likely when run only rarely or with a old nozzle. Think if you have a good fine spray it happens less. Also think it happens more at start up. I replace my nozzles once a year regardless of what they look like and clean the unit then as well. Maybe it’s less as maybe it burns off when they’re run for a long time. Don’t know. Do carry an extra. For the wesbasto the special tool you can get helps.
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Old 11-30-2022, 01:54 PM   #31
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Interesting link from noonsite
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Old 11-30-2022, 08:50 PM   #32
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Slainte 1, I think we were both at Hodgdon yachts this summer. We're in Deltaville Va. now waiting for the completion of the Hurricane heater replacement in our Hatteras 42 LRC (Yes PierreR an LRC). Our boat, an LRC is not well insulated or air tight, ( as evidenced by cool drafts as a strong coldfront passes tonight) originally had a Hurricane heater that the previous owner removed, Zimmerman marine is the east coast distributor for ITR Hurricane heaters so we were hoping for plug and play with the older controls but technology marches on and we're requiring some upgrades in controls and electrical distribution to bring it up to standards and convenience. Supply chain issues have kept us here almost a month, and the weather last week with a week of January temperatures here running 2-3 electric heaters ( 25-30 amps on coldest nights ) have proven we'll need it on the loop. We're hopeful we approaching the finish line.
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Old 12-02-2022, 04:52 PM   #33
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HelloWe have a Krogen Express 2019 we keep in Florida, as well a 42 steel trawler we keep in Cheboygan MI. New Krogen Express are sold out to 2024, and the distributer has no used vessels in inventory as of this date.


I have never needed much heat in my Krogen so I can’t tell how much you will need.


I have sailed the Great Lakes for 45 years and have some experience there about in all of them. Circumnavigated Superior three times. Won a Rolex at the Royal Canadian Yacht Club in Toronto.


May 1st may be early for a departure from Superior WI as your choice is to go out in the main Lake Michigan or go up Green Bay until passing “Port Du Mort” and out in the main lake. Personally I would do that, and hug the north shore of Michigan until Beaver Island or the Straits of Mackinac. As noted earlier, water cold, and may not have much open in the way of marinas and emergency services that early. We once went from St Joseph MI to Port Clinton Ohio that early but had to call ahead to make sure a marina was open so we could get fuel. Not a good time to play anchor out either, but the marinas where we could get fuel let us stay over at the fuel dock free of charge. The Trent Severn is really slow, as well picking through Georgian Bay to avoid shallow water and hard rocks. Very scenic, but the last third of the Trent is basically a ditch through farmland. Quicker to go down Lake Huron, the rivers and across Erie. Make up a fender board for the Welland.


Not knowing the conditions in Maine if you have to add heat to an older boat I would do one of the Chinese knock off of Webasto or Espar. I used hundreds of Espar units in another life but the Chinese were not available and I understand their units are much cheaper. There is not that much room in my Krogen to run any additional heat piping, mine is a three unit system and there is little room to run air over the pilot house to the forward cabin. I think that may make two units necessary at minimum for the salon and the master cabin.


I don’t know but I think the boating season in main is much like the norther Great Lakes, and when we needed heat the gen set could run a while. Carry a good wool blanket like the north woods pioneers, hehehe.


Best of luck
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Old 12-02-2022, 07:21 PM   #34
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I’m looking at this for me, has an option for water coils, would be very easy to rig up a manual hydronic system with nothing but a pump and an expansion tank if you wanted something a little more manual with nothing to really break. Also you would have a nice winter fireplace in your salon as well if you want the showpiece and enjoy a fire.

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Old 12-02-2022, 11:22 PM   #35
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Another two thumbs up for Wallas. When we replaced our 40Dt with the new Spartan, the guys at ScanMarine said Kevin Sanders was the only boater that had more hours on their unit. And ours had 25,200 hours in 5 years!

We made a video of the new Spartan installation:

https://youtu.be/qGZRqj028AA

That was 2 years ago, and we're still really happy. Anecdotally, it seems more efficient burning fuel (we have filled the heater tank less often than in the past) and it is WAY quieter than the 40Dt was - and it was pretty quiet in the first place.

As far as the Wallas being "big" enough for a 49' Krogen Express (BTU output-wise), I'm not sure. It would be worth a call to ScanMarine in Seattle to have a discussion with them. If they think it wouldn't suffice, they'll let you know.
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Old 12-03-2022, 01:40 AM   #36
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I’m sure many people have great experiences with Wallas. My two Wallas heaters were nothing but trouble and I won’t ever have another one.
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Old 12-03-2022, 07:33 AM   #37
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Many fishing boats in AK have diesel galley stoves that are always left on low when not cooking. These keep the boat warm and dry. Easy install except you need an external vent stack. Might work well with a fan forced air flow supplement to the cabin.
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Old 12-06-2022, 04:18 PM   #38
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Your Trip Out East

Hi John,

Congratulations on your new boat! This is not quite on-topic but should be of use.

I have made the trip from the west coast of Michigan to Maine as part of the Downeast Circle but never got beyond Maine where we are looking forward to our sixth season Downeast. We began our trip in mid May for several reasons. Warmer weather was one but the primary reason was the Trent Severn Waterway does not typically open until around May 20 and for the first month has limited lock hours (usually 10-3:30 on Monday through Thursday, and 9-6:30 Friday through Sunday).

Depending on your objective for the trip, get home quickly or smell the roses, should dictate your route. If the former, then Lake Huron, Lake Erie, Welland Canal, Lake Ontario, St. Lawrence and then down to Maine. Note that the Welland requires a crew of three on board. Do not underestimate the Lakes. We have seen worse weather there than in Maine. The routes are not that much different in length but you can make better time on the Lakes. I think we covered close to 2800 miles that summer.

If you choose the smell the roses approach, you could spend the whole season coming home and have an unforgettable trip. An early May departure would work well and give you the opportunity to spend some time in the North Channel and Georgian Bay before arriving at the Waterway. Take the Inside Passage down Georgian Bay for great scenery or just make a 90 mile run straight down to the waterway. Plan on spending around 10 – 14 days for the Trent with the limited lock hours. There are several towns along the way that are worth stopping at … Orillia, Peterborough, Bobcaygeon, and Trenton to name a few.

Kingston is worth a stay for a day or so before heading for the 1000 Islands and the St. Lawrence. An alternative if you choose and are not “locked out” would be to head north on the Rideaux Canal, Ottawa city, and then Montreal which is worth spending time before heading for Quebec and enjoying the historic City (the Yacht Club is a very welcoming place) or the Old Port is great and protected from the Bay of Fundy type tides.

Take a side trip up the Saguanay River to experience the only fjiord in NA and maybe see some whales. The south side of the St. Lawrence is a pleasant coastline with numerous French villages and very hospitable marinas. Gaspe, at the mouth of the St. Lawrence, is worth a couple of days exploration. Then it’s a matter of working south along the coast of New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, a possible side trip to Cape Breton, Nova Scotia and home to Maine.

I hope you can take the time to make this long trip a once in a lifetime adventure.

PM me and we could arrange to talk more if you are interested.
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