having trouble with back and fill

[Hawgwash]

Would like to get comments on the spring line operation below.

Image 2 with the spring on the port cleat.
Constant power to keep line taut and away from the underwater winch.

 

[Wxx3]

Thx again for all the good ideas.

Would like to get comments on the spring line operation below. I know I can get it out easy to about the 90 degree point (position 3), but with wind, what action would you take to work the bow into the wind?

Also, I'm a bit worried about the boat getting pushed back to the dock, so I'd have to pad things well. I do have fender strips on the dock, but might want more. And, there's another boat in the slip on a lift between the docks that I don't want to hit, but can position it so its stern doesn't stick out past the dock.

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This looks scary to me. I would never do this like that.
Because by attaching the stern to the dock, the wind could grab the boat and push it into the dock you are trying to get away from, but you can't because you are tied.

Instead, I put a spring line from bow stbd cleat to the dock near your stern.
Therefore boat can't go forward.
and you can hold it in place with a little left rudder and forward (which holds the stern against the dock)
Now when you are ready to depart.

If the wind is strong, straighten rudder, and the wind will push the stern out. In a weaker wind, you can give it a little right rudder (turning wheel to starboard) and a shot of forward. Bow can't go forward, so stern will come out.
Once boat is about 45 degrees to dock, I release the spring line and give it a strong reverse throttle.

This gets me far enough from the dock to do a full turn to port, since Dauntless can pivot CCW.

Now Dauntless prop walk is to stbd, so in a strong wind, I would get far enough from dock and then, hard left rudder and come around 225 degrees.

 

[MVNoPlans]

I agree with Ted, upon return when "warmed up" as captain, I would back her in despite the challenges. Not to be a wise guy, but have you sought to change slips? After I repowered my boat, she prop walked in the opposite direction she formerly had, and rather than fight, I switched slips. If you loose thrusters in a stiff wind while docking, you will just do your level best to simply get to the dock, and sometimes that means aiming right at it.

 

[Xsbank]

There is nothing undignified about leaving your dock backwards, until you are in open water; use the rudder hard over and a little forward thrust to keep it moving straight backwards. Much lower stress. I leave backwards if the wind is blowing in to the dock like your diagram shows. In my marina where you show marsh I have a rock wall.

Just back straight down the fairway.

 

[Seevee]

This looks scary to me. I would never do this like that.
Because by attaching the stern to the dock, the wind could grab the boat and push it into the dock you are trying to get away from, but you can't because you are tied.

Instead, I put a spring line from bow stbd cleat to the dock near your stern.
Therefore boat can't go forward.
and you can hold it in place with a little left rudder and forward (which holds the stern against the dock)
Now when you are ready to depart.

If the wind is strong, straighten rudder, and the wind will push the stern out. In a weaker wind, you can give it a little right rudder (turning wheel to starboard) and a shot of forward. Bow can't go forward, so stern will come out.
Once boat is about 45 degrees to dock, I release the spring line and give it a strong reverse throttle.

This gets me far enough from the dock to do a full turn to port, since Dauntless can pivot CCW.

Now Dauntless prop walk is to stbd, so in a strong wind, I would get far enough from dock and then, hard left rudder and come around 225 degrees.

Richard,

Always great hearing from the expert! The stern line in the pix would be attached with a quick release knot for a get away... just has to be a long line.

I can't get the boat out to the left side of the dock... there's barely enough water there to come straight in. I need to be backed out about three houses to give me the flexibility of a 180 turn, allowing room to be pushed back into the dock. With light winds or very high tide it works ok. Right now, I'm not sure using a spring would work well, other that getting a few degrees out from the dock to keep the fenders from hitting.

 

[Seevee]

I agree with Ted, upon return when "warmed up" as captain, I would back her in despite the challenges. Not to be a wise guy, but have you sought to change slips? After I repowered my boat, she prop walked in the opposite direction she formerly had, and rather than fight, I switched slips. If you loose thrusters in a stiff wind while docking, you will just do your level best to simply get to the dock, and sometimes that means aiming right at it.

Wish I could change slips. There is no option, I've only got two and the next choice would be a marina. Having the boat behind the house is priceless for doing little things and just looking at her. We'll often hop on and go no where and enjoy a sunset from the aft fly bridge. Unfortuantely the price I'm paying is accessibility to getting out.

However, I'm coming up with some good ideas.

 

[Seevee]

There is nothing undignified about leaving your dock backwards, until you are in open water; use the rudder hard over and a little forward thrust to keep it moving straight backwards. Much lower stress. I leave backwards if the wind is blowing in to the dock like your diagram shows. In my marina where you show marsh I have a rock wall.

Just back straight down the fairway.

Xsbank,

I'm going to try that, just to see how it goes. If you can do it, anyone can.... .... well maybe, except me, but will work on it. Thx!

 

[Seevee]

Replies have been great, thanks to a great group. Now I've got to get the boat out of the mud at the tide is coming up..... ugh.

 

[dhays]

SeeVee, that is a tough docking situation. Great ideas so far and I certinaly understand the problem of being blown down on the dock or into the shallows during the turn.

One thing you might try as others have mentioned is docking stern first. Your boat will turn great to starboard. If you turn in place (back and fill) as your bow passes B. You will then back to port next to your dock. If you can have a spring on the dock or one that can be dropped over a piling or cleat, then it should help suck you into the dock and hold you there as you get off and tied up.

Just a thought....

 

[Ski in NC]

Seevee has thrusters. This whole discussion is IF thrusters fail. With one or two thrusters you can back up as straight as you want til you get to a good turning area.

 

[dhays]

Seevee has thrusters. This whole discussion is IF thrusters fail. With one or two thrusters you can back up as straight as you want til you get to a good turning area.

Good point Ski, but I do understand his desire to be independent of them in his home slip. I have them as well and use them a LOT coming in and out of my home slip depending on the wind and current conditions.

 

[psneeld]

In reality, unless both thrusters fail within minutes of each other, Ski is right in the sense that this docking situation may require at least one working to make this slip with wind.

I am pretty handy with boats, but I know my limitations cold, and usually grasp a situation that while doable, is fraught with doubts of successful completion.

This is one docking situstion that without a thruster, I may avoid till the wind dies or I have a thruster.

A classic example of how a great skipper knows when he shouldn't rely on great skills for a great maneuver.

 

[dhays]

A classic example of how a great skipper knows when he shouldn't rely on great skills for a great maneuver.

That is such a good point! I always need to remind myself to avoid situations that will "work out just fine" only if a whole string of events go perfectly.

 

[psneeld]

Funny, when you get to a point in any career, yours too....

When instructing, your hair stands up long before the student even grasps the current situation.

So sometimes, even as I posted before, "from my chair"..... I get the feeling tbat is a trap of a docking situation for a single without thrusters. With...different story.

So with some practice on the boat, I might be of help.

Spring lines are a possibility.

Doing things differently are a possibility.

But when broadside and unmanueverable to a foul wind...my hairs stand up pretty quickly.

 

[jleonard]

Since this is a discussion of how to leave the dock IF the thrusters fail.....
Test the trusters while still tied up, if the thrusters are not working, stay home and fix them.

 

[dhays]

Since this is a discussion of how to leave the dock IF the thrusters fail.....
Test the trusters while still tied up, if the thrusters are not working, stay home and fix them.

That is way to obvious Jay.

Yes, I always test my thrusters upon leaving the dock or as I am approaching a dock. I have had them fail before and it is so much better to know ahead of time.

 

[Seevee]

Thanks you experts.... about the thrusters, good points.

I departed the other day, checked them (and the throttle) before untying, and everything worked ok, but the thrusters seemed a bit weak. Left anyway.

There was a 6 to 8 knot wind on shore and tide was high... thought no problem. But it didn't work that way. After I got out the thrusters petered out so they were ineffective and I couldn't turn the boat with the back and fill technique.... just couldn't get the bow around into the wind without taking up a lot more water area, which put me into shallow water where I promptly got stuck.

Rather that fight it (as the tide was falling), I just anchored it off and decided to rescue it the next day at high tide, which worked pretty well. However, I spend about 3 hours using a pressure washer to clear any muck around the prop and rudder just to be sure..... and it floated off just fine. That's when I decided to post and get more expertise advise from you folks with a lot more experience, which has been enlightening.

I am pissed at myself for not being a better captain. I now realize what I thought..... the engine does not charge the house batteries and they power the thrusters, so if I uses the thrusters the batteries get depleted to around 10.5 volts, I'm up the creek without a paddle. And they don't get recharged until I run the genny or have shore power. Live and learn. I don't like to run the genny a lot because the shallow area I dock in has a lot of muck. I like to start up and get out of there. I should run the genny once underway, and get my planned shore power installed ASAP.

But, the thought of being able to operate without thrusters is something I want to practice and learn how far I can go. Still learning.

So, out to try some new techniques I've learned here.... and practice them. Thx for all the great responses.

 

[Great Laker]

You mentioned not wanting to back into your slip fully because it is too shallow near the stern. I don't know what the bottom is like or how far the water extends, but if it is sand or soft mud your boat can operate as a dredge.

Back in, and tie securely to the dock. Then put the engine in forward gear and add a little throttle. It is surprising how fast the prop wash can dig a long and wide channel behind the boat. Swing the stern out to widen it. When deep enough, back up some and repeat till you are fully on the dock. Doing this at low tide would help make it deeper as well.

Worth a try?

 

[BruceK]

Insequent is dealing with the same problem charging thruster batts. The idea they and their batts don`t get alternator charge with engine(s) running seems nonsensical to this non thruster owner.
I support getting a docking expert onboard. You have lots of skills, good advice, and good understanding, but an onboard expert may help you bring it all together quickly and make your home dock much more usable.

 

[Seevee]

You mentioned not wanting to back into your slip fully because it is too shallow near the stern. I don't know what the bottom is like or how far the water extends, but if it is sand or soft mud your boat can operate as a dredge.

Back in, and tie securely to the dock. Then put the engine in forward gear and add a little throttle. It is surprising how fast the prop wash can dig a long and wide channel behind the boat. Swing the stern out to widen it. When deep enough, back up some and repeat till you are fully on the dock. Doing this at low tide would help make it deeper as well.

Worth a try?

Great Laker,

Good point but have to be careful about permits, etc. One can dredge here but need to go thru the hoops which are brutal.

But with stern in, I still have to turn it around. And backing in is more difficult. Plus, we enjoy the boat right at the dock watching sunsets or having lunch overlooking the water on the flybridge, which wouldn't work if stern in.

 

[Ski in NC]

If the batts that power the thrusters do not charge with engine alternator, you need to do a little snooping around your DC system. However it is arranged, those batts should charge with shore, genny or main engine alternator.

 

[Seevee]

If the batts that power the thrusters do not charge with engine alternator, you need to do a little snooping around your DC system. However it is arranged, those batts should charge with shore, genny or main engine alternator.

Ski,

Absolutely. A trawler friend of mine suggested a unit that will charge them off the engine alternator without affecting the start battery (which it charges) which would be great.

There's a few electrical things I want to improve on.

 

[eyschulman]

All this sounds like a great argument for twins. The engine room is tighter and it costs more to buy and install and maintain but the boat in experienced hands will deal with the adverse conditions like business as usual. Some people who seek twins do know what and why they are doing so.

 

[dhays]

SeeVee, this could quickly go off on a tangent about battery systems. Look for that thread that BruceK mentioned by Insequent.

FWIW, I really like having all charging systems go to the house and then charging the engine start battery from the house bank. A Blue Seas ACR, a Balmar Duo Charge (since you don't have an electronic engine) or a Xantrex Echo Charger can all work.

Since your thrusters are getting powered from the house bank that would really help when running the thrusters.

 

[ranger58sb]

Good point but have to be careful about permits, etc. One can dredge here but need to go thru the hoops which are brutal.

But with stern in, I still have to turn it around. And backing in is more difficult. Plus, we enjoy the boat right at the dock watching sunsets or having lunch overlooking the water on the flybridge, which wouldn't work if stern in.

I'd bet if you're simply operating your boat in the slip, you're not "dredging."



Backing in may seem more difficult at first, but it looks to me (from this distance) like your prop walk would work better -- work for you, rather than against you -- if you go all the way into the fairway, turn to starboard, and back to port into your slip.

Can't speak to the view, though. Our bridge works for that in either direction...

-Chris

 

[Seevee]

I'd bet if you're simply operating your boat in the slip, you're not "dredging."



Backing in may seem more difficult at first, but it looks to me (from this distance) like your prop walk would work better -- work for you, rather than against you -- if you go all the way into the fairway, turn to starboard, and back to port into your slip.

Can't speak to the view, though. Our bridge works for that in either direction...

-Chris

I'm not going to back in for the reasons posted, also, it would be a two man operation with any wind as the helm door would be on the opposite side of the dock. Plus it's just harder to even see the dock from the helm with backing.

I'm determined to master the turn around going out.

 

[cappy208]

One comment:

When in extremis as you will be (short room, max expectation of maneuverability) you need EVERY bit of performance you can wring out of the old girl.

The third post mentioned to NOT turn the helm when backing and filling. This is definitely hindering the propwalk advantage. Not knowing your rudder size, it likely is fairly large for a single screw, trawler application. They DO effect stern direction when not shifted in cases like yours. A wheel suicide knob is helpful unless you have a hydraulic joystick helm.

In my experience people who don't shift the rudder lose out (sometimes infinitesimally, other times hugely) on performance. The problem, when in extremis, a newbie can (and often does) get confused and gives a shot of throttle when the rudder is the wrong way (or not hard over) which totally loses whatever gain had been made thus far in maneuver. Also, use HARD OVER when giving a shot ahead. There is no sense in making headway when you want a hard turn to work in your advantage.

Okay, 2:
Practice out in the open, with a couple milk jugs weighted down with sand, tied to empty ones. Make an obstacle course. Try using the same measurements as you have in close.. Maneuver between them to practice. Do try as some have suggested C.W versus C..C.W.. It is amazing how much different a single screw boat will turn one way versus the other.


Okay, 3:
As a completely out of the box solution, (since the photobucket pic is unviewable to me), what is directly astern of you when in the slip and how far away is the other side? bulkhead, Bank, trees? use of a 'leaving line' could accomplish what you are trying to do. use of a line from opposite bank, as a line to spring off of, then toss it back ashore to use next time. It would be a two person operation to reel the slack in as you back up, but would be invaluable to hold the boat up as you spin to keep you off the dock.

 

[ranger58sb]

I'm not going to back in for the reasons posted, also, it would be a two man operation with any wind as the helm door would be on the opposite side of the dock. Plus it's just harder to even see the dock from the helm with backing.

I'm determined to master the turn around going out.

Fair enough. I'd forgotten your upper helm is way far forward, and your lower helm maybe only allows visibility on one side...

OTOH, I'd bet there are many destination slips where you can't get off the boat easily if you don't back in -- sort finger piers and so forth -- so it'll keep raising it's ugly head.

But, that said, then...

One of the watermen here in our marina is almost all the way in our ~300' fairway. Single screw, no thruster I think.

He just backs all the way in. If wind is crossing, he just favors the windward side. He has controls in his wide-open cockpit, though, so no visibility issues...

I could back our older Mainship with decent steerage, once I got up enough way for the rudder to have some effect. Seldom used capability that around the dock, but a couple times it came in handy enough. Our upper helm was further back on the bridge though, so visibility was good...

-Chris

 

[TimButterfield]

In case anyone wants some practice on a simulator :
The Boat Docker – A Power Boat Docking Simulator

 

[High Wire]

1400 feet! Forget backing straight out!!!