Gov shutdown and Documentation

[Steve91T]

Originally Posted by Capitaine R

I did not use a service, I wrongly thought I had plenty of time to get this done. The only paper I have is the CG bill of sale, the old Documentation from the PO, which will expire to soon, and copies of the paper work I sent.

Same here

[Capitaine R]

Originally Posted by Steve91T

I can’t register our new to us boat in our name. The boat is documented. I can’t even delete documentation to be able to register it in SC.

Really kind of crazy.

Steve, do you need the Documentation before you can register in S.C.? I was under the impression that here in Florida we can do and have to do both. Of course you do not receive a Florida title, just a reg sticker. And since our boat is older we get to register her as a Antique. I was trying to put off the Florida registration because she will not be in Florida until June. And if I read the law correctly I will have another 90 days to register her once it is in Florida, at which point I will need to cough up the sales Tax.

[Steve91T]

Originally Posted by Capitaine R

Steve, do you need the Documentation before you can register in S.C.? I was under the impression that here in Florida we can do and have to do both. Of course you do not receive a Florida title, just a reg sticker. And since our boat is older we get to register her as a Antique. I was trying to put off the Florida registration because she will not be in Florida until June. And if I read the law correctly I will have another 90 days to register her once it is in Florida, at which point I will need to cough up the sales Tax.

The problem is the boat is documented with the PO. I can’t change that. I can’t even delete documentation with the coast guard. I called SC and told her the situation. She explained that until I have the letter saying documention has been deleted, I cannot title the boat in my name.

I also had to call USAA and tell them I can’t list them as a lien holder because if this and they totally understand and said to not worry about it. They have a lot of people calling in with this issue.

So I’m going to just bring what paperwork I have and hope that if I’m boarded they understand.

[FlyWright]

Originally Posted by Philkoury

The Coast Guard is indeed a branch of the Military. They have operated under Treasury, Transportation, and now Homeland Security always as a branch of he Military. Just because the funding for the Coast Guard does not come from the Department of Defense does not mean they are not a branch of the Military.

At least they got their funding as needed. Saw this today...

https://www.maritime-executive.com/a...ember-paycheck

Also, ASD recently posted an article about the USCG Documentation renewal being extended to 5 years from today's annual renewal requirement. That should make it all 20% of the work. Wonder if they will allow 5 years for $23?

[JLD]

Originally Posted by FlyWright

At least they got their funding as needed. Saw this today...

https://www.maritime-executive.com/a...ember-paycheck

Also, ASD recently posted an article about the USCG Documentation renewal being extended to 5 years from today's annual renewal requirement. That should make it all 20% of the work. Wonder if they will allow 5 years for $23?

Actually, they didn't really get funding after 12/31. Active duty Coast Guard members will be working without pay, starting today (until the end of the shutdown.) Civilian Coast Guard employees, like my daughter, are furloughed.

I presume that documentation is likely handled by civilian Coast Guard employees and the pile of paperwork will continue to grow until the shutdown is over.

Any Coast Guard members or employees (as well as an other federal government employees) who are members of the Navy Federal Credit Union and get their paychecks directly deposited, are being offered, by NFCU, small loans that have 0% interest, no application fees, and no credit checks.

Jim

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Philkoury

The Coast Guard is indeed a branch of the Military. They have operated under Treasury, Transportation, and now Homeland Security always as a branch of he Military. Just because the funding for the Coast Guard does not come from the Department of Defense does not mean they are not a branch of the Military. How do you explain the issuance of a DD-214 "Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty" to departing members of the Coast Guard? How do you explain their eligibility for GI bill benefits? How do you explain all the Military Medals I earned during my 28.5 years of service in the Coast Guard? A quick internet search might be in order.

I corrected to Department of Defense and for the purpose of the discussion here they are not part of the military from a funding standpoint. They are not currently being paid while all the other military branches are. I'm not casting any light on the service in the CG. They're actually my favorite armed force.

[Boat]

In wartime the USCG was under the DOD, before Homeland Security. I suspect the same is still true. But someone will sue to block it, most likely.

Back when I was licensed, I as told that all it took was an order from a governor or president to make me active military. From some of the mail I get I wonder if I was on a short list for activation at some point.

[mystery]

Originally Posted by Capitaine R

When we purchased the new to us Nordic Tug we promptly faxed off all the paper work needed to document the boat in our name. And of course we have no idea if the USCG actually got the paperwork, and now we have a Gov shutdown. I have also received an Email from the school I attended to acquire my Master Captains license stating that if your license needs to be renewed you should be aware that there is going to be a long wait. But you still need to get it in to their office on time. The school also said you can give the CG a call but they will just tell you nothing is being processed at this time. Luckily I do not need to renew this year. So now we are just hoping to get our new documentation by the time we need to bring the boat down to Florida in May, I know that is 4 1/2 months away but I just can't help thinking something on one of those USCG forms is wrong which will set us back another month or two.

A few thoughts... why do you need the documentation? Are you visiting a foreign port? If you get pulled over, most will accept proof that you submitted and are waiting on the paperwork. If you do need it for some reason, I have gotten it processed in ONE WEEK by submitting a priority request per NVDC's instructions. I don't think it costs me anything extra. Also, if you bring a boat into Florida that you have not used elsewhere for 6+ months, you may owe tax to FL. I would read FL's regs to see if the boat needed to be registered for those 6+ months too because if its not been registered, i.e. in another state, then you may still owe tax. Easy solution some times is just getting a state reg if that makes sense for that state and so long as you don't trigger any extra tax. Finally, regarding your timing, make sure you have an insurance policy that fully insures you down south during hurricane season. You may have a significantly increased deductible. For that reason, I removed my last boat from the South by May.

[mystery]

Originally Posted by Comodave

Did you have a documentation service company handle your purchase? When we bought our current boat the service provided paperwork showing that the purchase had been sent to the documentation center. They said we could show it in case we were boarded.

I don't see any value-add in using a documentation service. Filing CG paperwork is easier than registering a vehicle/trailer at a DMV. Doc services charge hundreds for what you can do yourself for a fraction of the cost. I have had to use services when financing boats though as the lender required it but I picked a service that did it a lot cheaper than who they recommended and since I use the same company now they are good to me. A doc service letter is nothing magical. Keep a print out of your proof of submission to the CG on-board. That will work the same if not better than a random letter from a doc service.

[Capitaine R]

Originally Posted by mystery

A few thoughts... why do you need the documentation? Are you visiting a foreign port? If you get pulled over, most will accept proof that you submitted and are waiting on the paperwork. If you do need it for some reason, I have gotten it processed in ONE WEEK by submitting a priority request per NVDC's instructions. I don't think it costs me anything extra. Also, if you bring a boat into Florida that you have not used elsewhere for 6+ months, you may owe tax to FL. I would read FL's regs to see if the boat needed to be registered for those 6+ months too because if its not been registered, i.e. in another state, then you may still owe tax. Easy solution some times is just getting a state reg if that makes sense for that state and so long as you don't trigger any extra tax. Finally, regarding your timing, make sure you have an insurance policy that fully insures you down south during hurricane season. You may have a significantly increased deductible. For that reason, I removed my last boat from the South by May.

Well like you said "most will accept proof that I submitted and are waiting on the Document", but I will no doubt get the one USCG or local law enforcement officer that won't. That is just my luck . Especially traveling thru 9 states without State registration numbers or stickers on display. And at this point, since I have already sent in my forms and with an on going Gov shut down, I don't know if a priority request will do me much good, but it is worth checking out. I have read the Florida law on paying taxes on a boat purchased in another state and I will definitely have to pay Florida sales tax once the boat is in the state for 90 days. I'm in no way trying to get out of paying the proper taxes. And even with a Documented boat you still have to register the boat in Florida if you plan to stay, and since we live here we plan to stay.

We have secured insurance on the boat thru the same company we have our autos and houses under. I am glad to say the deductible is very reasonable even under a named storm. The deductible is much less than it would cost to move the boat out of harms way since in this part of Florida the Hurricanes, at least in the recent past, have ended up tracking right where you would have thought it would have been safe when you listened to the forecast a few days before.

[mystery]

Originally Posted by Capitaine R

Well like you said "most will accept proof that I submitted and are waiting on the Document", but I will no doubt get the one USCG or local law enforcement officer that won't. That is just my luck . Especially traveling thru 9 states without State registration numbers or stickers on display. And at this point, since I have already sent in my forms and with an on going Gov shut down, I don't know if a priority request will do me much good, but it is worth checking out.

So the boat did not have an old name, hailing port, or any reg stickers on it? If it does, I would leave the existing on until your stuff is in order. If its blank, i would add your name and hailing port as to not attract unneeded attention. LEO will see FL as the hailing port and likely no one will bother you about missing FL stickers on your trip down to FL... I have NEVER heard anyone having issue so long as they could provide proof they submitted the doc.

If you are traveling in winter, spring, I would not worry too much. I saw practically zero LEO out on the water during my 3,000 mile trip from Jan til May. I have purchased many boats before with documentation that took 5-6+ months to get and had no issues. I would not be worrying about it just keep proof of the paperwork that you submitted on-board.

And to reiterate, a doc service/agent does not magically help with a backlogged documentation that has yet to be processed by the CG. In fact my experience is they can mess things up and delay things more. Their letter does nothing magical. In order to get the priority request processed, you will need a reason such as a trip to the Bahamas. If you happen not to take that trip then so be it but you need a legit reason. Again, I don't think you need the documentation processed priority for the purposes that you have stated. One thing that would worry me is being in a state that does collect sales/use tax and having to pay them and FL at the same time. Be sure to read the regs of the state where the boat currently is and see if it might be in your interest to relocate the boat etc.

[Capitaine R]

I found this, which confirms what the Broker told me. I am glad to see it on the states web site



. Are there any sales and use tax exemptions available on sales or purchases of vessels?
Yes. The exemptions available for sales and purchases
of vessels include:
•
Sales of vessels that will be docked in Connecticut
for 60 or fewer days in a calendar year.


•Vessels purchased by nonresidents who maintain
no permanent place of abode in Connecticut and
who will not register them in Connecticut.

Commercial fishing vessels and machinery or
equipment for use on the vessels. See
Informational Publication 2009(14)
,

[mystery]

Originally Posted by Capitaine R

I found this, which confirms what the Broker told me. I am glad to see it on the states web site



. Are there any sales and use tax exemptions available on sales or purchases of vessels?
Yes. The exemptions available for sales and purchases
of vessels include:
•
Sales of vessels that will be docked in Connecticut
for 60 or fewer days in a calendar year.


•Vessels purchased by nonresidents who maintain
no permanent place of abode in Connecticut and
who will not register them in Connecticut.

Commercial fishing vessels and machinery or
equipment for use on the vessels. See
Informational Publication 2009(14)
,

You filed form 139? I believe the vessel needs to be moved out of CT within 60 days though? Unless you can some how claim the winter storage exemption?

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by BruceK

If/when the shutdown ends, do the employees who stayed at work get back pay?
We have a different way of dealing with "Supply"(of money) issues. It worked, spectacularly, the one time I recall it being invoked.

In previous shutdowns, both people who worked or did not work got back pay. I was an "essential" employee. Essential employees who had previously-approved vacation still went on vacation but got their vacation days back.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Capitaine R

Well like you said "most will accept proof that I submitted and are waiting on the Document", but I will no doubt get the one USCG or local law enforcement officer that won't. That is just my luck . Especially traveling thru 9 states without State registration numbers or stickers on display. And at this point, since I have already sent in my forms and with an on going Gov shut down, I don't know if a priority request will do me much good, but it is worth checking out. I have read the Florida law on paying taxes on a boat purchased in another state and I will definitely have to pay Florida sales tax once the boat is in the state for 90 days. I'm in no way trying to get out of paying the proper taxes. And even with a Documented boat you still have to register the boat in Florida if you plan to stay, and since we live here we plan to stay.

.

I don't believe you'll have any issue with the lack of documentation. However, you may have an issue with the lack of registration. In fact, you could have it as soon as the second state you hit. The exemptions granted are often based on being registered elsewhere. When we purchased outside the state of Florida, we went on and registered in Florida even though the boat wouldn't reach Florida for 9 months. The only negative is you have to go on and pay the sales tax too, rather than delay it until you arrive. The positive was that it removed all questions along the way. We were also documented, but the only state we were in that didn't require documented vessels to register was California.

[mystery]

Originally Posted by BandB

I don't believe you'll have any issue with the lack of documentation. However, you may have an issue with the lack of registration. In fact, you could have it as soon as the second state you hit. The exemptions granted are often based on being registered elsewhere. When we purchased outside the state of Florida, we went on and registered in Florida even though the boat wouldn't reach Florida for 9 months. The only negative is you have to go on and pay the sales tax too, rather than delay it until you arrive. The positive was that it removed all questions along the way. We were also documented, but the only state we were in that didn't require documented vessels to register was California.

Yes some states do say their exceptions are based on it already being registered. The question is does documentation suffice. It varies by states. If the boat was previously documented and the documentation did not lapse, it is still documented, even though it is not in your name (yet). A quick and easy solution may be to register in RI.

[JLD]

Originally Posted by markpierce

In previous shutdowns, both people who worked or did not work got back pay. I was an "essential" employee. Essential employees who had previously-approved vacation still went on vacation but got their vacation days back.

There is, however, no guarantee of back pay for furloughed employees. In the past, they have received back pay because Congress had approved it. Technically, during the shutdown all leave was cancelled. From the OPM (Office of Personnel Management) website: "All paid time off during a shutdown furlough period must be canceled because the requirement to furlough supersedes leave and other paid time off rights. The Antideficiency Act (31 U.S.C. 1341 et seq.) does not allow authorization of any expenditure or obligation before an appropriation is made, unless authorized by law. Paid time off creates a debt to the Government that is not authorized by the Act. Therefore, agencies are instructed that during a shutdown furlough, all paid time off must be canceled."

Shutdowns are not the way to run a government. They do a disservice to both the employees affected, as well as the general public. This is my 12th shutdown (and 10th time furloughed) in my 35 years of public service. I love my job and would rather be a work as I believe that my work has value. If I didn't, I would have retired three years ago.

Jim

[BandB]

Originally Posted by mystery

If the boat was previously documented and the documentation did not lapse, it is still documented, even though it is not in your name (yet).

No it is not documented. Not the moment the sale took place. Irrelevant whether the CG is caught up or not. You can't present the previous owners documentation.

[BruceK]

Originally Posted by JLD

Shutdowns are not the way to run a government. They do a disservice to both the employees affected, as well as the general public. This is my 12th shutdown (and 10th time furloughed) in my 35 years of public service. I love my job and would rather be a work as I believe that my work has value. If I didn't, I would have retired three years ago. Jim

Our constitutional monarchy system has a Governor General, generally a figurehead Queens representative. But in 1975 the GG exercised the power to invite the Opposition party to form a Government when the existing Govt. could not get the "Supply" Bill (ie money to operate)through Parliament.
Caused massive ructions,still angrily remembered by many. The ousted Prime Minister, a man of both style and letters, intoned from the steps of Parliament: "Well may God save the Queen, because nothing will save the Governor General".

[mystery]

Originally Posted by BandB

No it is not documented. Not the moment the sale took place. Irrelevant whether the CG is caught up or not. You can't present the previous owners documentation.

It is my understanding that if someone buys a boat that is documented and does not want it documented, they have to cancel and request deletion.

It is also my understanding that if someone buys a documented boat, they have to request the documentation be changed into their name by presenting the USCG notarized bill of sale. They do not request a new documentation, it is an owner name change.

Also thought that is how MARAD waivers and Coastwise endorsements carry through to subsequent owners...

Obviously one should (and probably has to by law) submit a name change but the status of the vessel remains "documented" from before the sale, during the sale, and after the sale, there is no lapse (unless its not renewed, even then I think it has to be officially deleted).

Please correct me if I am wrong.