A good reason to give up the sailboat for a trawler? - Page 2

Marin · 12-27-2007, 01:24 PM

I had not seen this thread until a link was recently posted to it in another thread. I apologize if you were all hoping it was dead.

Regarding the photo that kicked it off, I'd have to give the folks credit for going home under power after their dismasting as opposed to on the end of a rope. I've crewed in some races back in the early 80s where boats were dismasted by sudden gusts and there's not a whole lot you can do except motor on home. It's a mess on deck and cutting sails and cables and sawing stuff apart is best left until the boat is tied up unless it's an open-ocean accident that has to be dealt with on the spot.

I've met a lot of trawler owners who used to sail. The reason given for the switch is often the fact that a sailboat got to be too much physical work. In some cases, someone's mobility wasn't what it used to be and getting around on a sailboat deck was getting too difficult. Some said they'd met their quota of hours in open or semi-open cockpits in the rain and wind during the winter and decided to make the switch to power rather than give up off-season boating.

My sailing experience is limited to a few seasons of racing in the early 80s and a bit of inter-island cruising in Hawaii in the '70s. But I've known a fair number of sailboaters and I've noticed that to most of them the voyage is the thing, not the getting there. This is something I can strongly relate to. As with my floatplane flying and even driving trips, I am always a little bummed out when we get where we're going in the boat. To me, and to a fair degree my wife, the enjoyment is in the going. The destination is just an excuse to take the boat out. And by destination I mean a town, a harbor, a marina, etc. We consider a remote bay that we might anchor in to still be a part of the "getting there."

Going slow, observing what's going on around them, watching the seabirds, watching the light changing on the water and islands are reasons I have heard from sailboaters who chose a trawler when switching to power. A slow powerboat most replicates what they enjoyed about going out in their sailboats.

I took this photo while we were following Carey's lobsterboat north through the islands back in late August.* The fog was burning off and the water was calm.* To me, this is what it's all about.

-- Edited by Marin at 15:43, 2007-12-27

ancora · 12-28-2007, 08:56 AM

Never sailed so am somewhat ignorant of the process, but I am amazed at the number of sailboats, not dismasted, I see under tow. I had a slip next to a sailboater who always brought it into the slip under sail. He said it was no big deal. So why all the towing?

Marin · 12-28-2007, 01:14 PM

Having been around sailboats a fair amount I would hazard a guess that a good chunk of the reason has to do with the types of engines they use. They don't have to be very large, and since in theory the engine is just along for the ride 90 percent of the time, the objective is more about size and weight than about power or reliability. So I think a lot of sailboats have "not great" engines to start with. The diesels that are the core of the marinzed engine are most likely low-power, lightweight car engines or two or three-cylinder industrial engines, etc.

What happens in reality, particularly up here, is that during the summer and fall there is not that much wind, or wind consistent enough to move a sailboat along at a decent clip for a decent amount of time. Add in the the 20 kabillion islands which make the winds even more squirrelly and inconsistent, and most sailboats you see between here and SE Alaska are proceeding under power. So you have a boat with a "not great" engine depending on this engine 90 percent of the time.

But even if the engine is a very reliable unit like a Perkins or Volvo or Yanmar, in a sailboat it's still intended for minimal use--- in and out of the harbor basically--- so little thought is given to making it accessible. Space is at a premium in a sailboat hull to begin with, so the engines tend to be boxed in by storage compartments, water and waste tanks, even berths in some designs. Which means getting at it to change the oil, change the raw water impeller, etc., can be a real pain in the butt. And since most of them end up being mounted under the cockpit, headroom is pretty much zero. So its physical location discourages anyone from making the effort to get in there and maintain it.

I have noticed that when it comes to maintenance, some/many/most sailboaters have the attitude that we'll use it until it breaks and then we'll fix it. Now add to all of the above the tendency of many sailboaters to ignore their engines because they have no interest in them and you have the recipe for coming home on a rope.

As to your second question, while your slip neighbor may feel that sailing into his slip is no big deal, for most sailboaters it IS a big deal, and may actually be downright impossible no matter how good they are.* Every marina layout is different and winds and currents can come from different directions.* If there is not enough room in the fairway to tack or come about, or if the prevailing wind is not from a direction that will let you luff the sails and slow the boat, then sailing into a slip may not be an option at all.* All the sailboat owners I know would much prefer to be towed in than attempt to sail into a marina.

-- Edited by Marin at 15:25, 2007-12-28

FF · 12-30-2007, 02:39 AM

"They want to have that fridge,"

Most would be better off with ice, or spending the bucks for a dockside Eutetic system , and rebuilding the ice box to last 3 days.

A weekend could be done with ice cream and cold beer! And NO dead batts.

FF

jeriemil · 12-31-2007, 07:08 AM

I have been following this subject for awhile. I think that you are all right to a degree. The most important aspect in buying a boat is to have a clear idea of what kind of sailing you want to do. We were both sailboat people and for all the reasons listed before we chose to buy a trawler. We knew that we couldn't afford great diesel bills nor did we want to support big oil companies. We wanted to enjoy the experience and we were not going to be in a hurry. Not being in a hurry has its advantages but also some problems. We don't want to look for bad weather but going slow doesn't allow you to out run a storm. Also, we know that there are problems on the ICC and we will have to go on the outside in many areas. We wanted to be able to have a boat that could withstand some weather. If we were on the outside, knowing that the boat could handle it, would give us the confidence to keep cool and make the right decisions. What we ended up with was a lot more boat than we thought we needed at first but we feel that it has opened more sailing opportunities for us. Our horizons are now further than we had originally planned and we look at that as an opportunity. Our sister ships are sailing on their own from China- people just like ourselves. A couple of them are in the Philippine Islands, a few in China still. One has already made it to California from China. We are headed down to Mexico and Guatemala next year. So I guess what I am saying is that more and more power boats are becoming world cruisers and I think that the decision developed into the right one for us. There is no one right way to have a dream or in fact the right boat for everyone- just the right boat for the particular dream might make it a reality.

FF · 01-01-2008, 03:16 AM

"So I guess what I am saying is that more and more power boats are becoming world cruisers ."

A great trend , and sure to grow BUT most MUST to do as you do and get a purpose built boat .

Not many of the GRP cookies are built with offshore scantlings , and the few that are well done are really expensive , and rare.

My fear is a wannabee , that does no homework,loads up on electric goodies and sets off "Offshore " in a 30 year old "its a Trawler isnt it?" for the cruise of a lifetime.

It could be quite an experiance!

FF

2bucks · 01-01-2008, 10:14 AM

Those that set off without proper planning and provisions will pay the appropriate price. Generally these are older folks so it won't help the gene pool, but it might serve as a good lesson for others.

I feel no need to "mother" everyone. Let them take their chances and learn their lessons. It seems like people aren't allowed to fail anymore. How many of their friends will take off without proper preparation if the first one has a poor experience?

That's not to say I wouldn't help anyone who was in trouble, needed help planning, etc. I just think people ought to be held accountable for their actions, not allowed to blame someone else because they didn't get to do it, or because it failed.

Ken Buck

FF · 01-02-2008, 02:29 AM

" I just think people ought to be held accountable for their actions, not allowed to blame someone else because they didn't get to do it, or because it failed."

Spoken like a true Libertarian , and I totally agree.

The problem is these folks are not dumb , just uninformed, and hopefully LOOKING for information.

As everyone seems to be in a great hurry , the E world gets searched , and unfortuniatly advertisers pop up more than knowledgable sources.

Ever read Circumnavigator? A Phony "magazine" selling a boating "Lifestyle".

A real eye opener art how desperate this China builder is to shlock product, not realistic information.

FF

marinetrader · 01-03-2008, 03:16 AM

I made a comment about sail boats on another website just the other day and got slammed and called names for preferring a trawler. I tend to agree most "sailors" seem to be hopeless romantics that dream of crossing the oceans, but never leave the docks.

For me anytime on the water is OK, even anchoring in the tidal creeks suits me.

MT

FF · 01-03-2008, 03:31 AM

"Or maybe you could start your own magazine...a consumer's report for the boating world"

No need to , Practical Sailor does lots of "road tests" and the vast majority (but not ALL) are gear that most marine motorists would be making a selection of.

Dave Pascoe has done a fine job of sharing the results of 30 years as a surveyer, and covers all types of boats free on his website..

Boat Diesel does a great job , for $25 a year.

Both PS and Pascoe both charge for their BEST information , so it might be out of reach to ex sailors.

"Slamming production boats that are not built to your offshore standards"

Most production boats are not built to ANY offshore "standards" , which is fine as probably less than 1 in a thousand folks want to Voyage across any ocean.

The 300% usual price difference between lakes or bay boats , or coastal cruisers and true offshore scantlings quickly changes folks DESIREMENTS.

FF

**Baker** · 01-03-2008, 07:09 AM

You keep using the word "scantling" in reference to FRP boats. Not that it's relevant, but that term is usually related to metal boats and the scantlings that are welded together and rolled to form a boat. I guess FRP hulls are made of 1 or 2 scantlings depending on how it was laid up. The term can even be applied to buildings(wood) or wooden boats but still don't believe it to be relative to FRP boats.

FF · 01-03-2008, 08:20 AM

Any vessel's "scantlings" is the entire package of the construction.

With GRP its a measure of how thick (and mostly less flexable ) or robust the construction.

But scantlings would include the robustness of the deck house , thickness of window glass , type and fastnings of any deck penitrations (hatches).

Simply measuring the thickness of the glass in the hull will not usually give a good idea of the vessels intended service , as reinforcement like stringers or bulkheads must be included.

Of course the intentionally lightweight boats will expect a very reduced service life , compared to even an inshore boat.

Lots of keels have fallen off superlightweight race boats , but in racing , that's what improves the breed.

In wood cold molded ply with lightweight stringers will be fast , but 1 1/4- 1 1/2 planking with 4x4 ribs on 12 inch centers would make the better 40-50 ft "world cruiser".

Look at the origonal PASSAGEMAKER , for an idea of wood boat scantlings.

For the Euro folks have ratings that could be examined to get an idea of what it takes to bash out in the blue water.ALL construction materials are covered.

My simple Quick Check is to look at the thickness of glass in the PH,
1/4 inch its a brownwater boat , 3/4 it could be built for the briney blue!

FF

AdamT · 01-03-2008, 01:23 PM

The Europeans have a rating system for offshore boats. AFAIK the "Ocean-A" rating is the one to look for. Saw this in PM's review of the Elling E3 (cool boat, btw). According to PM, it requires the ability to safely operate in Beaufort Force 8 conditions (34-40 knot winds and up to 18 foot cresting seas). No idea how the Euros test that out, though....

**Baker** · 01-03-2008, 07:51 PM

FF, it does not apply. Using your application, the term "scantling" could be applied to anything man made....."...that chair sure has robust scantlings....".....or..."...that handrail was made of hearty scantlings...."...."...check out the scantlings on that file cabinet!!!!..."....."....man, I sure wish my camera had the same scantlings as yours!!!...".

My point being, scantlings as they apply to marine construction usually refer to metal boats.....metal pieces that have been formed, rolled, and welded together to create a hull. No one, except maybe you, will refer to scantlings of FRP boats.....wooden boats it may be more applicable but most people will refer to them by their proper names...like stringers...strakes...ribs...planks...etc.

It has nothing to do with the thickness....it has everything to do with a structural member.

-- Edited by Baker at 21:52, 2008-01-03

Gene · 01-03-2008, 08:35 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scantling

"In shipbuilding, the scantling refers to the collective dimensions of the various parts, particularly the framing and structural supports. The word is most often used in the plural to describe how much structural strength in the form of girders, I-beams, etc. is in a given section."

-- Edited by Gene at 22:40, 2008-01-03

Marin · 01-03-2008, 09:13 PM

The Webster's Unabridged Dictionary defines "scantling" as 1. a small quantity or amount, 2. dimensions of building materials, 3. a small beam or timber, especially one of small cross section, as a 2 x 4, 4. a small upright timber, as in the frame of a structure, 5. small beams or timbers collectively, 6. a rough draft or sketch.

rednev · 01-04-2008, 03:00 AM

the oxford dictionary adds ' set of standard dimensions for parts of structure esp in ship building'
i have heard the term used in the same way as ff uses it by numerous boat builders/users both in australia and the uk

AdamT · 01-04-2008, 07:35 AM

I think of the term as FF uses it as refering to stringers and bulkheads.

**Baker** · 01-04-2008, 08:00 AM

Quote:

rednev wrote:

the oxford dictionary adds ' set of standard dimensions for parts of structure esp in ship building'
i have heard the term used in the same way as ff uses it by numerous boat builders/users both in australia and the uk

For fiberglass boats???

-- Edited by Baker at 10:01, 2008-01-04

FF · 01-05-2008, 02:47 AM

think of the term as FF uses it as refering to stringers and bulkheads.

Scantlings as I use it are the entire package , ALL the boat , hull deck, tank mountings , engine mount glass and door robustness , everything !

AS failure of only one part of the chain , will lead to failure , the lack of excellent construction , materials choice or poor equipment selection could lead to a disaster.

FF