Good news for trawler sales?

[ColonyCove]

In September, unit sales of trawlers were up 14 percent compared to September 2009, the same percentage they've been up year-to-date, during which time 858 trawlers have changed hands, up more than 100 boats from 749 in the first nine months of 2009. That 14 percent is slightly better than the overall increase year-to-date in powerboat sales of just under 12 percent. source: Soundings Trade Only

 

[RT Firefly]

Hiya,
** Mr. CC.* Welcome.* Could the increase in vessels changing hands be as a result of owners becoming really desperate to sell thus drasticaly lowering their asking prices or accepting much lower offers?

 

[ColonyCove]

Thanks for the welcome.

With regards to desperate owners dumping boats thereby artificially inflating unit sales- I don't believe this is what is primarily driving the upturn.* Boats always change hands in good markets and bad.* A bad market shows up as weakness in new boat sales and decreased used boat sales until owners get over the reality shock of their vessels new worth.* Then*sales level out and start back up as the recent three year trend*indicates.* One can try to time the boat sales market like the stock market, but the results will probably be just as dismal.* For those looking for another boat; it is a wash anyway.* In a bad market you sell low but get a good low price on your new dreamboat.* In a good market you sell high, but pay an arm and a leg for the new one.* The only folks who really end up under water (pun intended) are those getting out of their boats with no plans to buy another.* In a bad market they may be forced to sell low a boat they had purchased high.* That's sad, but even in a good market there are always sacrifice sales by persons with health, divorce, or bankruptcy issues.

 

[RickB]

What are the numbers for new trawlers? That is the figure that matters. Poor people trade jacknives when they can't afford to buy a new one.

 

[Carey]

RT Firefly wrote:

Hiya,
Mr. CC.* Welcome.* Could the increase in vessels changing hands be as a result of owners becoming really desperate to sell thus drasticaly lowering their asking prices or accepting much lower offers?

RTSeems very likely to me. Given the time of year, and the state of our recovery, the smart buyer would have been lurking in the wings waiting for prices to bottom out.

*

 

[Phil Fill]

15 years ago there were very few boat that want to be called and/or associated with trawler. Trawler where not in fashion, vogue, in demand.** Over the years trawler have become more in demand as people are looking for fuel efficient boats instead of go fast fuel hogs.* For years we felt like the ugly ducking, and that is why I still call it the UGLY BOAT.* As it turns out it is now*sort of a*swan, not a pretty sawn but a swan. Being trawlers where not in demand we got a really good deal on the Eagle as no body including me want to buy it. My wife did so that ended that!*


*
Over the last 15 year our trawler has increased in value and/or at least will be easier to sell. **I was so excited to find Passagemaker because at they spoke big ugly, full displacement trawler. I almost peed my pants.* (-;


*

 

[Marin]

RT Firefly wrote:

Could the increase in vessels changing hands be as a result of owners becoming really desperate to sell thus drasticaly lowering their asking prices or accepting much lower offers?

According to a friend of ours who is the lead broker at the large GB dealership in Bellingham, two things have happened to help sales activity start booming.*

First, the wealthy people--- who have been wealthy all along--- became very conservative in their spending when the economic sh*t hit the fan a couple of years ago.* So large purchases they may have been contemplating were put on hold.* Now that the situation is getting better, or has at least stabilized, these people have put the large purchases back on the front burner.* His particular dealership has had a significant rise in the sale of GBs this last year, either people buying GBs*for the first time or people moving up in size.

Second is what you described.* Boat prices are, to a large degree, depressed, so people who can afford to buy are getting better deals.

Probably the most radical example I've heard of this occurred earlier this year or late last year.* In the early 2000s, the northwest*GB distributorship was taken away from the Bellingham-based company that had it and was given to a Seattle-based company called (IIRC) Passagemaker Yachts.* When the economy took a nosedive, Passagemaker declared bankruptcy and went out of business, leaving the bank holding the assets, among which were two brand new GBs, a GB41 (the pod-drive model) and a GB47 (the prop-tunnelled "planing" model).* Each of these boats retails for well over $1 million.

The bank finally got tired of having these things and decided to simply get rid of them.* So the put both boats--- both brand new, never been used---- up for sale for exactly half price.* The GB47 was instantly snapped up by a wealthy couple from England who had recently bought a late model GB46.* They told me the deal was simply too good to pass up.* They apparently plan to keep the GB46 in charter in Bellingham*and ship the GB47 home to England.

So for someone who has a ton of money to spend on a boat right now, it's like being a kid in a candy store, particularly at*the high end of the market where the price reductions are measured in hundreds of thousands of dollars, not*thousands of dollars.*

 

[Daddyo]

Here's some of my broker "insider" info:

U.S. brokerage sales in November gained substantially in total valuation
compared to November 09. Reports by YachtWorld.com member brokerages
to the proprietary database, SoldBoats.com, indicate that valuations
climbed to $388 million, a 76-percent increase over the previous
November. Total valuation for the U.S. market through 11 months of the
year increased to $2.97 billion, a rise of $500 million from 2009.


The market increase was most pronounced for those
boats over 55 feet. Unit sales increased to 77 boats, from 48 in
November 09 (up 60 percent), and total valuation of sales increased to
$231 million, up nearly 300 percent.
November unit sales were 2 percent higher, with 1938 boats changing
hands. That figure exceeded the five-year average for November by 60
boatsthe first time in 2010 that a months sales had beaten the
average. Year-to-date unit sales have increased 9 percent over the first
11 months of 2009, with 27,900 boats sold.


Powerboat sales, which drive roughly 80 percent of
the brokerage market, were up 3 percent with 1504 boats sold, while
sales of sailboats dropped 3 percent, to 434 boats. The difference in
total valuation of sales was more dramatic, with powerboat valuation up
105 percent and sailboat valuation down 31 percent. Year to date, the
two market sectors are more closely aligned, with power up 10 percent in
units compared to sail, which is up 7 percent. Most of the gain in
valuation, however, has been in powerboat sales, which are up 22 percent
for the year while sailboat sales are up only 7 percent.

 

[magicbus]

Carey wrote:

... Given the time of year, and the state of our recovery, the smart buyer would have been lurking in the wings waiting for prices to bottom out.

*

This is pretty much what we did. *We bought because we feel the bottom is near but mostly because we came across the perfect boat for us. *I think the fact the boat is in the northeast and the sellers were looking at both storage and market price risks made them negotiable.

Dave


-- Edited by magicbus on Thursday 9th of December 2010 03:14:46 PM

 

[Carey]

magicbus wrote:

*
Carey wrote:

... Given the time of year, and the state of our recovery, the smart buyer would have been lurking in the wings waiting for prices to bottom out.

*

This is pretty much what we did. *We bought because we feel the bottom is near but mostly because we came across the perfect boat for us. *I think the fact the boat is in the northeast and the sellers were looking at both storage and market price risks made them negotiable.

Dave

-- Edited by magicbus on Thursday 9th of December 2010 03:14:46 PM
*

Dave

That's a beautiful boat. Good choice.

 

[Woodsong]

Daddyo,
I saw the same report from YW. My question is what is the correct interpretation of "valuations increasing 105%." That makes no sense to me. Pricing clearly remains DOWN and will pretty much forever remain down and it certainly is not up 105%! I see no "rebound" on pricing, do you? I wish YW, when they sent out these reports to brokers, gave a more meaningful and detailed analysis of what their take on the numbers really is.

Regardless, there are boats on the market that have been for sale literally since before I bought my previous boat back in 2007! They were overpriced then, and they are over priced now. Boats that are priced right are selling. People are buying boats. 95% of boats are highly overpriced, usually b/c the seller is terribly upside down and can't write the check to get out of the loan. The market has picked up since the November elections. I've closed 3 boats in the last 3 weeks and one closing tomorrow. 2 of those boats were on the market for protracted amount of time and sellers would not price it where I was recommending. Once the sellers got serious and priced their boat where it should be, we had them under contract within the month. Buyers are fickle and too educated these days to buy an overpriced boat. But overall, statistically..November 2010 saw 744 boats sold on yachtworld on the 34-40' range, compared to 647 units sold November 2009. Month of November 2008 only had 480 units sold!

January to November 2006 saw 9,206 units sold.
January to November 2007 saw 9,562 units sold.
January to November 2008 saw 7,998 units sold.
January to November 2009 saw 7,727 units sold.
January to November 2010 saw 8,077 units sold.

All the above numbers are for 34 to 40' boats, power and sail, model years 1965 to 2008 for each year. Not a significant statistical analysis but the raw numbers indicate, and my personal business concurs with it, that 2009 was the slowest year and that 2010 is decidedly better than 2009.


All the above was just for general boats 34-40.


Since we're all trawler folks though do we really care about those numbers??? Not so much. What we want to know about is JUST TRAWLERS since this is, afterall, the Trawler Forum.

Searching the YW sold data for model year boats 1965 to 2008 (so as to remain mostly in the fiberglass boat category, +/-) in the 34-40' size class boats designated as Trawlers (a somewhat nebulous and arbitrary designation that is determined by the listing broker so keep that in mind) we see the following data:

510 Units sold in January 2010 through November 2010.
485 Units sold in January 2009 through November 2009.
496 Units sold in January 2008 through November 2008.
646 Units sold in January 2007 through November 2007.
585 Units sold in January 2006 through November 2006.
607 Units sold in January 2005 through November 2005.

Statistically, there was a 25% drop in sales when comparing 07 to 09 which were the highest and lowest years for trawler sales. 2010 has been a decidedly better year for trawler sales and I am seeing that across the board. I definitely think a holistic approach on the numbers is important....a snap shot of just one month (i.e. the original post in this thread) does not give enough data to extrapolate market trends, in my opinion. Statistically, though, for trawler sales, comparing Jan through Nov 2009 to same time frame of 2010, we are only experiencing, overall, a marginal 5% increase in sales volume. Note these numbers are only raw number of sold units and does not dive into the realm of pricing drops, etc.


Sorry for the long post- just thought everyone here at TF would be interested to see some additional data.

 

[magicbus]

Carey wrote: Dave
That's a beautiful boat. Good choice.

Thanks Carey.* As did probably most everyone here, we looked long and hard and this one came up at the right price at (almost) the right time.

Dave

 

[Woodsong]

Mike,
Glad it helped!

Dave,
LOVE your Selene 48- beautiful boat!!!

 

[ColonyCove]

Looking at Woodsong's statistics:*
485 Units sold in January 2009 through November 2009.

One of these is the boat I bought at what was a difficult time to sell.* I had been watching several boats on Yachtworld and went for it after a couple of price reductions.* The other side of the coin was that they would not take my old boat in trade and it took me over two years to unload, a year before and a year after buying my trawler.* I did listen to my broker's advice and continually pared the asking price, but this has been truly a bad market to sell a boat new or used.* All said, I still came out ahead compared to the asking price of 2010 models.* The depreciation is horrendous on boats, and it is no wonder that smart money has been holding off buying unless you're in that category where a 55+ footer is just another trinket.* Among the papers I found on the boat was the original invoice which revealed depreciation of a shade over 42%*on a*five year old boat.*

 

[Larry M]

Nice post Woodsong.**

We had an*insurance survey in August.* It was interesting when the surveyor came back with the valuation.** The valuation was down ~15% from 3 years ago and that included some major upgrades (different from* maintenance/replacement *improvements).* Knowing that if we were to sell Hobo, the selling price would even be lower than that.* Have other people seen their value of their boats decrease via their surveys?

-- Edited by Larry M on Friday 10th of December 2010 11:05:09 AM

 

[Baker]

A good survey will reflect true market value. So no surprise there.

 

[Doc]

Although I would like to sell my boat and get a smaller one I'll probably not be able to do that because of the current market. Sure I could sell it if I really wanted to but by the time I figure in sales tax on the next boat plus any brokerage commission on either boat it doesn't make sense. If I were ready to get out of boating I'd probably take my licks and move on.

In the mean time I'll keep enjoying it all the while listening to it complain about not being on a long cruise.

 

[healhustler]

Doc: * *I've heard a lot of wishful thinking about people wanting to move up to Tugs, and who knows,...maybe someone has what you want out there. *Brokers and dealers are out there working to make deals in ways they never have. *Of course, it has to be win-win, but you've got nothing to loose by having a few people out there bring you some offers. *BTW, what would catch your fancy in downsizing? (I'm not a broker or a dealer, just an interested guy.)

 

[Doc]

Good question healhustler.

Since I am more of a weekend cruiser now I would like the ability to go faster.

A mid 30's size Downeaster or the same size convertible would be nice.

The tug is a great boat but it needs to be doing the loop or cruising the Bahamas by folks that want to have long range and don't care when they get there.

I am sure that something could be worked out "win-win" on any possible commission but the fact remains that the State of Florida is going to get 6% of the sale on the next boat. What about a trade, you might ask because of the tax on the difference issue? Well, in Florida for one to pay tax on the difference the deal must go through a Florida broker. An individual to individual trade will not save on tax. That is the law

 

[Baker]

Good Luck Doc. If I remember correctly, you had your boat priced VERY attractively!!!

 

[Arctic Traveller]

Baker wrote:

A good survey will reflect true market value. So no surprise there.

I often wonder about that.* How many times have you seen a boat for sale, and the listing said something like* "Surveyed at $$$" but the asking price is far less.* It would be interesting to know how many folks have sold boats for near the survey value.* My guess is that most do not.........Arctic Traveller

*

 

[Budds Outlet]

My surveyor knew what I was paying and surveyed it for 40% more.

 

[ColonyCove]

Yes, my boat is a Mainship 400.* Her name is Juniata (pronounced June-eee-ahh-tah)* It's the name of a little river in central Pennsylvania that flows into the Susquehanna and, eventually, Chesapeake Bay.
Just finished doing my own winterizing, except for the shrink wrap.* She's sleeping in the water this year, a first for me.* So far so good, but last weeks windstorms destroyed two nearly new Taylor 10x30 fenders.

It was 21 degrees in the NYC area this morning.* Little to do except think of boat shows and better boating days to come.

Love City Island, great boating location.*

*

 

[bobofthenorth]

Budds Outlet wrote:

My surveyor knew what I was paying and surveyed it for 40% more.

*The notion that this is a "good" thing seems to be rampant in this industry and it really bugs me.* In real estate I have always ignored the sales droids, paid for a real appraisal and handled the transactions myself unless I was forced to deal with a sales droid by the vendor.* In the boating world it appears to me that genuine appraisals simply don't exist.* It appears there are some surveyors who will provide some level of insight into the mechanical and marine condition of a vessel although the level of insight seems to be widely variable.* As far as value is concerned though it's strictly caveat emptor.* We just purchased a boat and the survey came in at exactly what we paid for the vessel.* There's a surprise - right down to the decimal we paid the exact correct amount.* <sarcasm mode ON> I guess we did good.

 

[skipperdude]

Budds Outlet wrote:

My surveyor knew what I was paying and surveyed it for 40% more.

Makes it easier to get the bank to finance it.
*

 

[Woodsong]

skipperdude wrote:

*
Budds Outlet wrote:

My surveyor knew what I was paying and surveyed it for 40% more.

Makes it easier to get the bank to finance it.
*

*



And that right there is what it is all about. *However, a good surveyor will NOT ask you what you are paying for the boat so that they can try and be as objective as possible. *Depending on what side of the fence you are sitting on though, you may or may not want them to be entirely "objective."

 

[ColonyCove]

Old Stone:
I used to be in Liberty Harbor, which was nicely protected, but now I'm further north and very exposed to river wakes.* Thanks for the tip on the fenders, but these were not destroyed by Taylor's manufacturing defect.* They were ripped apart by a combination of rotted wood on the finger piers which no longer supports the horizontal rubber molding and 17 tons of boat being repeatedly shoved into the pier.* I have five lines out, and even ripped a cleat from the not-too-sound wood.* I've put out my spare fenders and will follow your good advice on checking as often as I can.

 

[ColonyCove]

Considering that the surveyor is an "employee" of the buyer, I would expect him/her to give me the verbal news good or bad, and then produce their report to*protect my interest in the transaction.


Woodsong wrote:




skipperdude wrote:
Makes it easier to get the bank to finance it.

And that right there is what it is all about. *However, a good surveyor will NOT ask you what you are paying for the boat so that they can try and be as objective as possible. *Depending on what side of the fence you are sitting on though, you may or may not want them to be entirely "objective."



*