Good bye for awhile

[Alaskaflyer]

The Nordy 40 (lol) Kemo Sabe just popped up in my feed as for sale in Baltimore.

First Gen hull #19.

 

[Hippocampus]

Thanks Alaskafllyer. Wife has convinced me our blue water days are over. She wants coastal. Surprisingly there’s huge coastal areas we’ve never seen and it’s an activity that in large measure I’ve not explored. We have an accepted offer in on a Bristol condition Nordic 42 with a Seakeeper and all the comforts of home. Surveys on the 16th. 180degrees from our initial thinking and past experiences. Kemo Sabe may be an excellent vessel. She has fish but not fins. Her owner seems to be a great guy and very knowledgeable. Understand he’s been quite active on the owner’s group and Dreamers. But happy wife = happy life. Wish to publically thank Peter as well. An incredible resource here on this site.

 

[rslifkin]

Thanks Alaskafllyer. Wife has convinced me our blue water days are over. She wants coastal. Surprisingly there’s huge coastal areas we’ve never seen and it’s an activity that in large measure I’ve not explored. We have an accepted offer in on a Bristol condition Nordic 42 with a Seakeeper and all the comforts of home. Surveys on the 16th. 180degrees from our initial thinking and past experiences. Kemo Sabe may be an excellent vessel. She has fish but not fins. Her owner seems to be a great guy and very knowledgeable. Understand he’s been quite active on the owner’s group and Dreamers. But happy wife = happy life. Wish to publically thank Peter as well. An incredible resource here on this site.

There are definitely plenty of coastal places worth exploring that get missed when traveling in a passagemaker or sailboat as air or water draft ends up limiting travel areas or level of exploration.

Plus, there's enough demand for coastal boats that if you ever decide to go back to bluewater you'll have no problem selling and finding something different.

 

[Frosty]

Surprisingly there’s huge coastal areas we’ve never seen and it’s an activity that in large measure I’ve not explored. We have an accepted offer in on a Bristol condition Nordic 42 with a Seakeeper and all the comforts of home.

Well that sounds fun! Instead of recreating your previous travels but with a powerboat, you'll be doing something completely different (by which I mean of course you are still boating, but you'll be looking at how and where you boat differently)

Either way could (have) been fun, but this sounds nifty, and it sounds like you found a great boat almost instantly when you changed gears. Here's to a good survey!

 

[Fletcher500]

Hippo, glad you found a nice boat. I know it was a long search for you. But, I have to ask: you had previously posted on here that Gyros were “dangerous”, and later on that they “could not be used in larger seas”. Now that you are under contract for a boat with a Gyro, have you changed your mind?

 

[OldDan1943]

Hippo, sounds like you found your perfect boat. Enjoy, enjoy.

 

[Hippocampus]

Fletcher-There’s a difference between how a coastal boat is used and an ocean boat. With a coastal boat it’s very unlikely you will exceed the limits of its functional spectrum. Although, unlike with sail, power manufacturers are pretty opaque on stability. Best I can gather the Nordic line probably has a AVS on the order of 40-45 degrees as it will downflood through the engine vents at that point. It’s a B not a A boat. The boat with accepted offer has dinghy weight low but a full flybridge. Even the Nordhavn 41 can’t be A if they stuck a flybridge on it. This boat will do coastal hops but mostly under 250nm. Although expensive the opportunity to go 20nm/h means shorter weather windows. Limitation is the absence of continuous rating so realistically, both due to engine selection and expense, 10nm/h is usable VMG. Even so transiting the coast of NJ or the jump to the Bahamas can easily be done within a day.
Wife is sick of lee clothes and bungle boards. Sick of trying to cook in a seaway. She tired of me taking days to recover physically from passage. After our years in the Caribbean she says the only islands we missed were Saba and Barbados. She’s been there done that. We’ve never explored the Chesapeake, gone up the Hudson or fished the southern sounds. Our experience of the Bahamas is Georgetown, Man of War Cay or other stops as bailouts when the south part of the North Atlantic is very unfavorable so we need to wait things out. Then there’s family. Our prior routine has been two winter visits home. She (and I) want to be one reliable flight or a one way rental car from home. Expect Covid to persist. Still a large segment of unreasonable people who won’t vaccinate. With the increased infectivity of Delta need ~90% vaccination rates and politicians accepting the advice of public health experts. That being the case even with no further mutations at least periodic travel restrictions will persist for the foreseeable future.

 

[backinblue]

Agree Hippo and don't understand the reluctance to get vaxed. I know an older woman who was vaxed and recently got Delta. Doctor said she would have died if she wasn't vaxed. My state is one of the leaders in vax rate but I still don't understand why it isn't higher and many states still are not even at 50%. Covid aside, you didn't answer the questions about the Seakeeper.

 

[Hippocampus]

Should mention what changed my mind. Within 24 h got calls from 3 different couples. Boats in Grenada, Martinique and St.Lucia. Common theme was they were wondering if they would ever be able to return to their boats. In one case they hadn’t seen their boat for 2 years. I’d been reading about Mu and Lambda mutations that day. I strongly expect there’s more “fun” with Covid for years to come. At this point primarily due to political stratification and basic economics of vaccination of breeding populations mutations will persist. So international boating will be problematic. Don’t see the reason for an international boat if you can’t use it’s capabilities. At least with a SD hull worst comes to worst you can stay in your home waters and have big fun.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. F. The first thing I thought of when you mentioned Mr. H's dislike of Seakeeper was that every boat is a compromise. I didn't want stabilizers on our 46' Cheoy Lee but we liked the boat and bought it anyway.

 

[Hippocampus]

BinB gyros are totally safe and markly improve your quality of life as long as your not asking them to do things beyond their capabilities. There’s a limit to how much precession they can do. They don’t help with sustained heel. They don’t help with pitch or heave. They do help with roll within fixed limits. They have no impact on stability. In a coastal setting and a modicum of commonsense you will never see those limits.
Would go with fins or even fish on a ocean boat but gyros are just fine for a coastal boat and will work without additional risk in skinny water.

 

[backinblue]

Greetings,
Mr. F. The first thing I thought of when you mentioned Mr. H's dislike of Seakeeper was that every boat is a compromise. I didn't want stabilizers on our 46' Cheoy Lee but we liked the boat and bought it anyway.

True enough, but since Hippo highlighted the fact that it has a Seakeeper seems to imply he sees that as a plus.

I expect we will deal with Covid and all its variants for many years just like we deal with a variant of influenza that requires a new shot every year. Get your COVID shot, and get a booster if required, or a new COVID shot at some point. What's the big deal? Wife and I got shots as soon as we could and live our lives like pre-COVID days. I know others my age that are not vaxed and choose to live in hibernbation mode. They still boat alone, but don't socialize. Life is too short for me.

 

[mvweebles]

Hippo: you will have a blast with that boat. As we've discussed on this forum, I'm a huge fan of coastal passagemaking. NT42 is a good choice for as far as you want to venture.

Best success. And thanks so much for being so open with your travails along the way. Has been wonderful to read and participate. I look forward to the next chapters.

Kind regards

Peter

 

[Codger2]

Think you decide first how you are going to use a boat. Just like do I need a pickup or a car/a 4x4 or a roadster. Deciding the program of usage is the hardest part. Once you have that pegged picking suitable brands/models/designs becomes easy.

BOY, ain't that the truth! It only took me 8 boats and 15 years before I learned that lesson.
Hippo is absolutely right on with his comments. Peg the actual usage (not the "dream" usage) first!

 

[Fletcher500]

Hippo, as I previously noted, glad you found the right boat for you. Back to Gyros, you previously made statements about them were not correct, based on dock talk, with no solid evidence. When I was doing my due diligence 5 years ago as to whether they were a good application for us, I communicated directly with a guy who ran a fleet of several 40 to 50 ft lobster boats that were run in heavy seas. He has used them for years, and was in the process of ordering another boat with one. There are thousands of boats out there being run in heavy conditions, not just coastal tea cruises. I only say this to set the record straight as someone who used one four 4 seasons as it relates to others who may read this and have an interest them.

 

[backinblue]

Question about the gyros on larger boats. I know they have huge power requirements. What is the normal way to power them when underway? An inverter with the engine charging the battery bank? Generator? I assume at anchor, the generator is the only option. As far as I know, they all require AC except for the smallest units that run on DC but still eat a lot of current.

 

[rslifkin]

Question about the gyros on larger boats. I know they have huge power requirements. What is the normal way to power them when underway? An inverter with the engine charging the battery bank? Generator? I assume at anchor, the generator is the only option. As far as I know, they all require AC except for the smallest units that run on DC but still eat a lot of current.

Up to a point I'd plan for big alternator(s) and a big inverter. But at the larger end of the spectrum the answer will probably be "start the generator before departure".

 

[KnotYet]

Up to a point I'd plan for big alternator(s) and a big inverter. But at the larger end of the spectrum the answer will probably be "start the generator before departure".

Or remember to spin it up using dock power!

 

[bowball]

BOY, ain't that the truth! It only took me 8 boats and 15 years before I learned that lesson.
Hippo is absolutely right on with his comments. Peg the actual usage (not the "dream" usage) first!

I was lucky as I had spent many years cruising on other friends boats, so knew exactly where I wanted to cruise and the exact type / brand of boat I wanted. Theirs were larger versions but same layout. I am lucky since I have no second thoughts.

 

[Hippocampus]

Simple physics. Gyro is a spinning weight with inertia to disturbance correlated to weight of spinning object and speed of revolution. If external disturbing force exceeds inertial force vessel will be perturbed. Gyro commutes its inertial force via gimbals hydraulically controlled in most instances. Degree of motion is limited. If perturbation exceeds capability of gyro to move due to external structures (gimbals and hydraulic arms) gyro has met its limits .
So there are fixed limits to what a gyro can do. Without a doubt given evolution of this technology speed of revolutions has increased, cooling systems are more effective, vacuum decreases power requirements. I’m not running a ship nor military vessel where between deep pockets and ability to install gyros of such power their limits won’t be seen. just small recreational craft. In this class of vessels for passage making still hold fins make more sense. Fins will continue to provide a righting force as long as the vessels is moving forward (zero fins aside). Force increases with speed of forward motion and area of the fin. Force will continue even if the vessel is at a fixed sustained degree of heel. Force will continue regardless of angle of heel.
Obviously if I have an accepted offer on a boat with a gyro I’m a believer. But I agree with the decision making process eloquently stated in the thread about Hammerhead.
Personally think about it the same way I think about fish. If one becomes airborne in a seaway or one side breaks things will get interesting. Is that likely to happen. No if properly spec’d and maintained. Put a big enough gyro and spin it fast enough for the conditions it will ever see good to go.
Fins, fish and Magnus are ultimately similar with gyros using a different physics. Perhaps I’m wrong . If so please tell me how one circumvents these issues. Scaling up to meet the requirements in storm force or greater conditions for small recreational craft doesn’t seem practical to me when a effective technology not requiring the difficulties and expense exists.

 

[Hippocampus]

From Imtra
Gyros have no appendage, they are relatively small and compact, and they are well-engineered to minimize the intense heat generated on the bearings by the spinning mass. Gyros come in an attractive package and work well in many circumstances.

Disadvantages of the gyro systems are that they are less effective underway, are heavy, and in some cases servicing requires removing the unit from the boat. For a 30-knot boat, a gyro has to be much bigger–perhaps bigger than space allows–to equal Vector Fins’ performance, so sometimes two or three gyros will be installed. The systems can take up to an hour to “spin up” before they provide full stabilization, also generate noise, may require structural reinforcement, and with few
exceptions are wholly dependent on AC power off a generator. In certain sea conditions, their effectiveness is also limited by stroke or precession distance, and when it’s time to replace the main bearings, most gyros must be removed from the boat and returned to the factory for service.

Key statement is “their effectiveness is limited by stroke or precession distance”.

 

[backinblue]

Or remember to spin it up using dock power!

Spin up take a significant amount of time and power if I remember. I remember when I heard the numbers it was surprising.

 

[backinblue]

From Imtra
Gyros have no appendage, they are relatively small and compact, and they are well-engineered to minimize the intense heat generated on the bearings by the spinning mass. Gyros come in an attractive package and work well in many circumstances.

Disadvantages of the gyro systems are that they are less effective underway, are heavy, and in some cases servicing requires removing the unit from the boat. For a 30-knot boat, a gyro has to be much bigger–perhaps bigger than space allows–to equal Vector Fins’ performance, so sometimes two or three gyros will be installed. The systems can take up to an hour to “spin up” before they provide full stabilization, also generate noise, may require structural reinforcement, and with few
exceptions are wholly dependent on AC power off a generator. In certain sea conditions, their effectiveness is also limited by stroke or precession distance, and when it’s time to replace the main bearings, most gyros must be removed from the boat and returned to the factory for service.

Key statement is “their effectiveness is limited by stroke or precession distance”.

However, they do have the advantage of working while the boat is not moving. I'm not a fisherman, but I would imagine it would make fishimng much more comfortable as well as when anchored in a rolly harbor.

 

[Porgy]

I thought I read a spin up time of about 45 minutes? If so, how many are fighting big beam seas within 45 minutes of leaving a dock? And I’d bet the overwhelming majority of NTs since 1980 don’t have stabilizers. Speed up, take a different heading to deal with seas. You can still do that while waiting for the gyro to become operational. I don’t see that as much of an issue.

 

[Hippocampus]

Porgy you’re right and as it spins up some progressive increasing benefit is seen to my understanding. Will see and learn as our experience increases. For now expect to look at the forecast and decide if it’s a Seakeeper day. Would think in canals, small rivers, and protected bays on a mild day there’s no need. However in settings with a steep, short period chop like Buzzards Bay, LISound or the large southern sounds on occasion it will come into play and when transiting NJ will spin it up. In the Caribbean occasionally you get the “north swell”. It makes anchorages most unpleasant. Suspect there’s a similar phenomenon in places along the US east coast. That’s another setting where the Seakeeper will be used.
The other learning curve is whether it’s worth spinning it up if you’re in a slip. Would think draw is highest during spin up. Shore power seems preferable to boat power for that phase. Have the spin up occur during breakfast while on shore power.

 

[backinblue]

Porgy you’re right and as it spins up some progressive increasing benefit is seen to my understanding. Will see and learn as our experience increases. For now expect to look at the forecast and decide if it’s a Seakeeper day. Would think in canals, small rivers, and protected bays on a mild day there’s no need. However in settings with a steep, short period chop like Buzzards Bay, LISound or the large southern sounds on occasion it will come into play and when transiting NJ will spin it up. In the Caribbean occasionally you get the “north swell”. It makes anchorages most unpleasant. Suspect there’s a similar phenomenon in places along the US east coast. That’s another setting where the Seakeeper will be used.
The other learning curve is whether it’s worth spinning it up if you’re in a slip. Would think draw is highest during spin up. Shore power seems preferable to boat power for that phase. Have the spin up occur during breakfast while on shore power.

Correct, the greatest current draw is during spin up, hence the suggestion to spin up at the dock if it's convenient to do so.

 

[Art]

Worth a read: https://www.imtra.com/learning-center/articleid/48/fins-vs-gyros-boat-stabilizers

To see what I worked on [built and sea tested during mid to late 1960's] with Dad [Dad patented in early 70's]... regarding "free water flow" auto vector accommodation stabilizer fins for boats. PM me your email and I'll attach a copy of the patent. The design is revolutionary. Dad was an RPI educated engineer. He was at forefront of design for 1969 LEM landing gear design at Grumman. Additionally, for RCAF he flew Spitfire photo reconveyance planes during WWII. The auto vector boat stabilizer he designed is truly unique in its ability to change shapes as required with no accessory power source; i.e. utilizing water flow as its single vector/shape coordinator to have boat hull remain perpendicular to axis.

United States Patent 3,753,415; August 21, 1973: HYDROFOIL-SHAPED STABILIZING OR ATTITUDE-AFFECTING MEANS FOR BOATS

 

[bowball]

I had less of an issue defining my mission: British Columbia protected cruising, with occasional trips up to Alaska and down perhaps to the Sea of Cortez. That made it really easy unlike the more varied conditions available on the east coast.
I really liked the looks of trawlers and wanted to cruise at 10kts or so. I wanted protected outdoor space and I liked separate pilot houses.
So my search was relatively easy.

 

[OldDan1943]

Worth a read: https://www.imtra.com/learning-center/articleid/48/fins-vs-gyros-boat-stabilizers

United States Patent 3,753,415; August 21, 1973: HYDROFOIL-SHAPED STABILIZING OR ATTITUDE-AFFECTING MEANS FOR BOATS

Interesting article. Are they in use today?