are gfi outlets required on a boat

[rpackard]

I recently had my Willard 40 surveyed. The surveyor indicated that all the 120VAC outlets should be GFI types. Is this now a requirement or a recommendation? GFI’s are to prevent electrocution not fire.

Richard P

 

[koliver]

Whatever the surveyor notes will be required by the insurer.
My last survey saw the new requirement for GFI in the galley. No note for any other GFI. I don't have AC outlets in the heads, or I would expect GFI to be required there too.

 

[Comodave]

Usually the same as in a house, near sinks or water sources. Not all of the outlets though. But if the surveyor says they are needed then your insurance company may say you have to do it. That is an instance where you may want to talk to the surveyor and get him to change the report and send you a new copy. I had a surveyor call out rusting galvanized steel gas tanks in a boat that I was buying. The boat had an aluminum tank. I called the surveyor and we talked about it and he changed the report.

 

[O C Diver]

I don't know the exact requirement, but GFIs have been pretty standard on boats for 20 years or so. Worthy of note: if you're going to do it yourself, only the first outlet in a circuit needs to be GFI all those down stream and wired through it are protected. On my boat, some of the circuits have 6 outlets, but 5 are downstream and protected by 1 GFI.

Ted

 

[ScottC]

I don't have GFI's on any of my individual outlets - not even the one in the head.
BUT all outlets are all connected to a GFI circuit breaker on the electrical panel. Could installing one of these be a possible "short cut" for those now required to install GFI's???

 

[rslifkin]

I don't have GFI's on any of my individual outlets - not even the one in the head.
BUT all outlets are all connected to a GFI circuit breaker on the electrical panel. Could installing one of these be a possible "short cut" for those now required to install GFI's???

Yes, a GFI breaker for the circuit should count. It's only a matter of the outlets being protected, how that's achieved doesn't really matter.

 

[CaptTom]

A tip when buying GFCI outlets: Don't buy the ones with a small pilot light that's always on. I tried one of those but it kept my inverter on all the time, even when nothing was plugged in.

 

[alormaria]

When buying GFI outlets be aware of how much deeper they are than normal outlets. There are more expensive but shallower GFI outlets than can save you a lot of work.
You just have to know to get them.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Worthy of note: if you're going to do it yourself, only the first outlet in a circuit needs to be GFI all those down stream and wired through it are protected. On my boat, some of the circuits have 6 outlets, but 5 are downstream and protected by 1 GFI.

That's what I was hoping when my surveyor (and therefore insurer) said they needed to be GFCI. But it turned out that every receptacle on CHiTON was a "home run" back to the breaker. No possibility of a daisy chain. I don't have that many outlets, so not a big deal, but it was more complicated than I had hoped. I didn't even look for a little GFCI breaker for my vintage panel. Not sure they are available.

 

[SteveK]

I don't know the exact requirement, but GFIs have been pretty standard on boats for 20 years or so. Worthy of note: if you're going to do it yourself, only the first outlet in a circuit needs to be GFI all those down stream and wired through it are protected. On my boat, some of the circuits have 6 outlets, but 5 are downstream and protected by 1 GFI.

Ted

My last surveyor insisted on every plug in the head and galley have a separate GFI. The point that they were daisy chained off the GFI fell on deaf ears. Like Dave I went ahead and put GFI plugs were he wanted them to avoid a hassle with insurance.
BTW, make sure the original first one is rewired to allow power to bypass it to the next plug and so on same for each GFI. That way they only trip in one location.

 

[O C Diver]

My last surveyor insisted on every plug in the head and galley have a separate GFI. The point that they were daisy chained off the GFI fell on deaf ears. Like Dave I went ahead and put GFI plugs were he wanted them to avoid a hassle with insurance.
BTW, make sure the original first one is rewired to allow power to bypass it to the next plug and so on same for each GFI. That way they only trip in one location.

It is this kind of crap that makes me want to neuter some people so that there lack of intelligence or they're being an intentional PIA, can't be past on.

A good surveyor should have one of these tools:

https://www.kleintools.com/catalog/electrical-testers/gfci-outlet-tester

They cost about $12 dollars and test the GFI outlet or an outlet downstream. The surveyor who did my boat tested every outlet and found one bad GFI. I keep one on my boat as they allow you to analyze all functions and wiring of the outlet with one tool.

Ted

 

[psneeld]

I have argued and won on those kind of issues with insurance companies.

I have used references or personal experience to override survey points brought up if they were as baffling as every outlet needing to be GFI.

Won my case on probably a dozen points on my last 2 surveys.

Others can be ignored as the insurance company would have to show where the change would have prevented the claim from being necessary.

Like my last survey saying I should take a "boaters safety course". I taught one for 15 years, plus captains licensing. The surveyor knew it, it was just his standard "survey boilerplate" that everyone gets. Just shows how accurate the whole concept can be.

 

[Iggy]

Regardless of what the his report states. I would want all outlets GFI protected anyways.

But this guy is a "want a be" electrician that does not understand how it works. If the Ins Co. wants it because its in the report, I would talk to them. They might agree thats its OK to daisy chain them.

Long story short. I had a problem with a rental property on a hand rail after an inspection. In talking with with them we agreed to handle it differently. Their not unreasonable at times.

 

[friz]

A tip when buying GFCI outlets: Don't buy the ones with a small pilot light that's always on. I tried one of those but it kept my inverter on all the time, even when nothing was plugged in.

Good to know if correct. I assumed the pilot light would be VAC. Green when outlet is closed and Off when the circuit is open? They are something I rarely look at so maybe I have the color scheme wrong.

 

[SteveK]

In my case DIY and I had the GFI plug it was not worth my time to argue the point. It only opens the door for closer scrutiny IMO on what else my opinion may differ.

 

[SteveK]

A tip when buying GFCI outlets: Don't buy the ones with a small pilot light that's always on. I tried one of those but it kept my inverter on all the time, even when nothing was plugged in.

Please elaborate. My inverter is either always on drawing amps to be on the ready or set to search mode to see if there is something that wants power, at which point it self turns on. There is a search voltage setting so if set to a 60 watt light for instance it will turn on but not for a 40 watt light.
The draw of the LED green light is way less than the 40 watt bulb.

 

[koliver]

It is this kind of crap that makes me want to neuter some people so that there lack of intelligence or they're being an intentional PIA, can't be past on.

A good surveyor should have one of these tools:

https://www.kleintools.com/catalog/electrical-testers/gfci-outlet-tester

They cost about $12 dollars and test the GFI outlet or an outlet downstream. The surveyor who did my boat tested every outlet and found one bad GFI. I keep one on my boat as they allow you to analyze all functions and wiring of the outlet with one tool.

Ted

Every survey I get, there are issues that generate a similar desire for retroactive neutering.
My latest included a statement in the survey that "no mechanical inspection was done in this survey" which, naturally, brought on a request for a "Mechanical Inspection" before the next insurance anniversary. I then queried the insurance broker to see what such an "inspection" would entail, and how I would find such an inspector.
That resulted, after considerable back and forth, in a guy arriving at my boat and doing his "inspection". When I got his report, I didn't recognize my boat in it. Yet I had to write him a cheque.
Luckily, nothing in the report cost me more money.
This year, the insurance co wants another survey. My last was in May, 2018, so I queried them as to the number of years apart they require surveys. "5" was the answer. I then said I would be happy to get one before May 2023, to which the answer was, no, it has to be done before Jan 1, 2023. "that is 5 years"' I lost the ensuing argument, so am now scheduled to see the surveyor at my May 2022, haulout.

 

[CaptTom]

I lost the ensuing argument, so am now scheduled to see the surveyor at my May 2022, haulout.

You may want to ask around, maybe a survey could be done in the water. There is a big difference between a per-purchase survey and an insurance survey. In the former, you're trying to identify every possible issue. In the latter, the insurance company just needs to know that the vessel is worth the amount they're insuring it for, and that it's safe and seaworthy.


Yes, the surveyor will always find something. A report with no findings would look fishy. If your boat is well maintained, the findings will be minor things you hadn't noticed or hadn't thought were important.

 

[ancora]

My 34 year old Taiwan trawler has a GFI in both heads. I had to replace one this month and installed one from Home Depot with a green pilot light. No inverter...no problem.

 

[psneeld]

In my case DIY and I had the GFI plug it was not worth my time to argue the point. It only opens the door for closer scrutiny IMO on what else my opinion may differ.

Yep.... trying to argue opinion is just like here....not worth the time unless the opinion is from a top expert the insurance company will buy into.

Heck one survey a few years back they let me do myself with pictures of certain things. Their checklist had about 5 or 6 items I didn't think were reasonable and they bought off on the explanations with documents references to appropriate organizations.

BUT...arguing standards accepted by organizations with long standing records seem to satisfy the 2 insurance companies I challenged. And doing the rest I the ones that I probably would have done anyway) seem to satisfy them perfectly.

 

[Comodave]

When we bought our Formula last August I asked Boat/US (Geico) where to send a copy of the survey to, they said they didn’t want it as a survey wasn’t needed.

 

[rwidman]

Regardless of what the his report states. I would want all outlets GFI protected anyways.

Same here. GFCI outlets are cheap and in many cases, one can be wired to protect an entire circuit (several outlets).

Install the GFCI devices and sleep well knowing that you have improved the safety of your boat.

 

[ProMaritime]

It is my understanding that in the US there is no official regulation as to anything electrical on a recreational vessel. The AYBC has recommendations only and they provide certifications to electricians who work on boats.

 

[sparky66]

ABYC says GFCI only required in head, galley, machinery space, or on a weather deck. Why would a surveyor say something like that? ABYC does say the entire shore power circuit needs to be protected by an ELCI, which is primarily for machinery protection.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

ABYC says GFCI only required in head, galley, machinery space, or on a weather deck. Why would a surveyor say something like that? ABYC does say the entire shore power circuit needs to be protected by an ELCI, which is primarily for machinery protection.

The dock shore power pedestal is regulated by the National Electrical Code (NEC).

 

[Leo Reise]

Actually, that is one of the stumbling points with surveyors. If a boat was built today, GFIs would be used. A boat built 30, 40, 50 years ago, GFI were nonexistent. Same goes with ELCIs, and other recent suggestion by ABYC.
Everyone knows that disc breaks are better than drum breaks, but no DOT is ordering cars off the road because they have drum breaks.
Surveyors need to insure the items on the vessel work as they were intended and meet the requirements of the day when they were built.
A few years ago, I substantially rewired most of my boats following the ABYC suggestions of the day. Four months later they came out with the ELCI between the shore power connection and the distribution panel. (I did not rewire!)

Saying that, I just replaced a duplex with a GFI. All outlets save one are now GFIs on our boat.

 

[sparky66]

The dock shore power pedestal is regulated by the National Electrical Code (NEC).

Yes, but there is a shore power circuit on the boat, and that is the one ABYC standards apply to, and where they say an ELCI is required.

 

[ronobrien]

Good to know if correct. I assumed the pilot light would be VAC. Green when outlet is closed and Off when the circuit is open? They are something I rarely look at so maybe I have the color scheme wrong.

That depends on the manufacturer. Some are illuminated when working some are illuminated when tripped. When in question it is easier just to trip and reset the receptacle. (Not trying to be a nerd, but technically the "outlet" is the box the wire comes out of, and the "device" is what ever is wired to it. In this case it is a "receptacle")

 

[diver dave]

I buy only the "WR" rated GFCI's. Weather resistant. Even if you don't expect rain inside the boat , they are more corrosion resistant.

 

[BandB]

Reality is that GFCI compliance is going to be necessary to connect to shore power in most updated marinas. You really just need to get a good marine electrician to get you to where you need to be.

As to surveys and arguing, by no means do insurers require you to do everything a surveyor notes. However, when it comes to a safety feature like this they are likely to insist you comply or have a licensed marine electrician make improvements.