Generator Lead Time

[Fletcher500]

After I posted a few days ago, the $90 Onan part from Cummins arrived, so I have 2 and am back in business. Overall, I have been very happy with Cummins. No complaints.

 

[Hippocampus]

Would note given globalism and extensive international travel persists Covid is far from over. As expected as people burn out and let down their guard so numbers are increasing again. The virus continues to mutate. Long Covid is now occurs one in four of the >65 but more importantly one in five of the <65 (folks likely to still be working). They will either leave the work force for a period of time or if continue to work may be less productive. Unemployment numbers are deceptive not including those who have left the work force, are underemployed or employed but less productive. Several of my friends own small businesses. Finding good employees remains difficult and for some output of themselves or employees has been effected by long Covid. Also it will be interesting to see how monkeypox evolves. We’ve had several long down turns due to pan/epidemics in the past even before significant international travel from cholera, typhus, yellow fever, smallpox and P.pestis. Don’t think,we’re entering another dark ages but do think we’re far from out of woods on this pandemic. If 20% of the work force is impaired to some degree that will effect supply chain issues.

 

[bgillroy]

I'd skip Onan go with either NL or Pulsar. Top picks for good tech reasons. Buy gensets at boat shows .

 

[bgillroy]

Correction Phasor.

 

[kthoennes]

Reading Latts and Atts today I noticed today that 215 boats were registered for the Newport to Bermuda Race June 17. That was at the time they went to press with the issue that just hit my mailbox. That's the second largest participation since the 100th anniversary race in 2006. I just checked the N/B website but didn't take the time to do the latest count. With all these parts and equipment delays lately it must be really challenging to keep the boats race-ready, but there are sure lots of them heading out.

 

[Hippocampus]

Newport Bermuda has pros and amateurs. Marion amateurs. Would think the big buck pro boats will throw money at it and find a way. Might be more problematic for the amateur boats. Lots of pent up desire to resume ocean racing. Might even be a “bucket race(s)” down in the Caribbean. Glad to hear that many folks are involved. Loved the Bermuda races and enjoyed those I did. Always found ocean races more interesting than buoy or the America’s cup. Friend is entering as a amateur on a B40. He’s totally psyched after a few years now of no real racing except phrf club races.

 

[Captain DJ]

Because of delays and extreme costs of new generators I am going to try something new, something I have not heard or read about others doing (aside from sailboats).

My old 7.5kW Onan still runs, but it is rough and looks horrible. I spent many days last year just getting it to run. It shakes and rattles, has been neglected for some time, and is located under the port side bench seat in the aft cockpit. Since there is already routing/plumbing for fuel, and water for exhaust there. I think I will replace that big 3 cylinder model with a 1 cylinder new Kubota diesel engine configured to run one or two 12 volt alternators.

My thinking is this:

I have a decent Interstate 6V bank qty 6 in the midship area (20-22 feet run of cable)
I have two 8D start batteries
Both are set up on selector switch with inverter/charger
One alternator on Port FL 120 charges House Bank
One alternator on Starboard engine charges starting bank
There is one Group 31 on the upper boat deck for hoist and it has a solar panel and is isolated from the rest, as a backup, just in case.

I want to remove the Onan and have it rebuild/cleaned/painted (for sale or future use)
I want this smaller 1 cylinder (currently with one alternator) to have two, one set up for the 2-8D flooded batteries, another setup for the 6 golfcart batteries, as they have different charging profiles. I hope this will allow us to use the quieter, more economical 1 cylinder to charge 12v directly and possibly just use when new solar panels cannot quite keep up with power needs.

My thoughts are that 10-15% is lost in efficiency to generate 120v and then charge via inverter/charger the 12v and 6v batteries. Then there is a loss again converting that stored power to 120v. We do not have air conditioners, (not really needed in PNW) but will definitely need them if we ever take the boat back to the Sea of Cortez where we live...Then we MAY need to reinstall the Onan 7.5kW.

But while in PNW, I think this quiter, smaller approach to just keeping batteries happy when on the hook or cruising short days for up to a week away from shore power ought to work on an electricity thrifty vessel. I think with adding two or four solar panels we will be good to go and if we are lucky, we can only run that 12v generator for a couple hours a day when it is cloudy.

Thoughts?

Suggestions?

Ridicule?

Thanks in advance. This was about generators and availability of parts, and thinking of solutions to these "Supply Chain" issues we live with in the Post Covid world.

 

[OldDan1943]

DJ have you considered rebuild what you have?

 

[twistedtree]

Is the single cylinder engine/alternator a commercial product offering? In particular, how is it cooled with sea water and how does the wet exhaust work? Those would be my first areas of concern.

Also, a single cylinder diesel will vibrate much more than a Kubota 3 cyl which I assume is what’s in your Onan. I would expect your new setup to be louder, not quieter than the Onan.

My inclination would be to do a rehab on the Onan.

 

[Captain DJ]

Is the single cylinder engine/alternator a commercial product offering? (Not 100% sure)
In particular, how is it cooled with seawater, and how does the wet exhaust work? (It appears to have wet exhaust for sure, I think it has a closed cooling system that is in turn cooled by seawater.)
Those would be my first areas of concern.
(Thanks for sharing your input)

Also, a single-cylinder diesel will vibrate much more than a Kubota 3 cyl
(Really, I had no idea. I thought smaller, new, and with new mounts to absorb motion would be better in all regards. Will it use more diesel too?)
which I assume is what’s in your Onan (Yes, it is a nearly 40-year-old Kubota 3 cylinder engine).
I would expect your new setup to be louder, not quieter than the Onan.
(Why is it expected to be louder and vibrate more than a bigger, far older unit that is three times the size? Thanks for your input. Do you have experience with these 1-cylinder Kubota diesel used in sailboats to run 12v alternators?)

My inclination would be to do a rehab on the Onan.

(Planning on doing that, this practically new and complete unit only cost me $300 so I thought it would be worth a season's trial while I am letting a professional rebuild/recondition the older unit) My guess is that the older unit is quite salvageable and will hopefully be worth more than the cost of reconditioning. I am hopeful.

 

[Hippocampus]

None of the high rev units can be lived with if you actually use your genset. We spec’d a lombardini and was neve satisfied with it. Although it worked fine removed it and replaced it with a NL which was a joy. Simple to work on, reliable, easily accessible parts. Friends with Fisher Panda had similar complaints. Those with Phasor had less but still said if they were to do it again would go with NL. Don’t know anything about larger units but for the demands of a 40-60’ boat think NL has much to offer. As you said prices fluctuate. Like your plan to “make do “ for ~1y as you shop and decide. Would also try to get firm estimates for a rebuild and compare to a new NLs cost. Currently we have a Onan. Given they’re so common in RVs parts and service isn’t an issue and it’s a simple engine. Still I don’t like several aspects of marinization and electrical side so prefer the NL. But that’s my uneducated opinion.

 

[rslifkin]

Northern Lights is pretty much the gold standard at this point. I've heard lots of good about Phasor, and they use the same basic Kubota engines as NL and some others. From what I know, the Phasor control setup, etc. is all pretty simple, so they should also be an easy enough unit to keep working (much like my 1980s Onan). For Onan, the old units are simple, easy to work on and very durable, but some of the parts are getting hard to find and some of those units are a bit on the primitive and agricultural side of things (in terms of noise, smoke, etc.). Their newer units have relatively complicated electronic controls, so they're not quite as simple to deal with as an NL or some of the others.



When I've heard whining online about a generator manufacturer, Fisher Panda and Kohler seem to come up. I've heard some complaints about getting parts for Westerbeke, but the generators themselves seem to be pretty good.

 

[sunchaser]

RSL
For many, the gold standard for a common genset likely excludes brand but includes:
- 1800 RPM with acceptable safety shutdowns and established diesel and generator
- Every fluid trip immediately dealt with
- Proper electrical and mechanical installation
- Easily accessible for routine inspections and servicing
- Exhaust system designed to preclude back flooding
- Replacing belt, impeller, on engine fuel filter and exhaust elbow done on a timely basis
- Avoid continuous low load situations, which for many involves two gensets of say one at 5 kW and the other 12-20 kW.
- An attentive owner as compared to the charter business (where all bets are off)

Oh, screen dock talk

 

[rslifkin]

RSL
For many, the gold standard for a common genset likely excludes brand but includes:
- 1800 RPM with acceptable safety shutdowns and established diesel and generator
- Every fluid trip immediately dealt with
- Proper electrical and mechanical installation
- Easily accessible for routine inspections and servicing
- Exhaust system designed to preclude back flooding
- Replacing belt, impeller, on engine fuel filter and exhaust elbow done on a timely basis
- Avoid continuous low load situations, which for many involves two gensets of say one at 5 kW and the other 12-20 kW.
- An attentive owner as compared to the charter business (where all bets are off)

Oh, screen dock talk

Absolutely agreed. I'd also add good parts availability and availability of wiring diagrams, service information, etc. to the list. That way you can get the thing working again after an issue and keep it working well without relying on factory techs being available (even more important on generators with more complex controls).

The exhaust system is a big one, as so many are done poorly. I was very happy the day I discovered that mine will actually push water out of the muffler while cranking and therefore has no concern for flooding if you crank it too long.

 

[T210DRVR]

B&B:

Short term disruption is one thing. Protracted is another.

Do you have any sense of when this mess eases up?

We do import distribution through the Port of Los Angeles. Shanghai has been virtually shut down for the past six weeks due to Covid. The vessels that have the raw materials that the Chinese need to produce goods have largely been sitting at anchor. The short answer is that the Chinese aren’t sure how long it will take to unwind this mess.

If consumer demand drops things could get better in four or five months. My bet is that this torments us through the balance of 2022.

Jim

 

[Fletcher500]

RSL
For many, the gold standard for a common genset likely excludes brand but includes:
- 1800 RPM with acceptable safety shutdowns and established diesel and generator
- Every fluid trip immediately dealt with
- Proper electrical and mechanical installation
- Easily accessible for routine inspections and servicing
- Exhaust system designed to preclude back flooding
- Replacing belt, impeller, on engine fuel filter and exhaust elbow done on a timely basis
- Avoid continuous low load situations, which for many involves two gensets of say one at 5 kW and the other 12-20 kW.
- An attentive owner as compared to the charter business (where all bets are off)

Oh, screen dock talk

Exactly.

 

[koliver]

Because of delays and extreme costs of new generators I am going to try something new, something I have not heard or read about others doing (aside from sailboats).

But while in PNW, I think this quiet, smaller approach to just keeping batteries happy when on the hook or cruising short days for up to a week away from shore power ought to work on an electricity thrifty vessel. I think with adding two or four solar panels we will be good to go and if we are lucky, we can only run that 12v generator for a couple hours a day when it is cloudy.

Thoughts?

Suggestions?

Ridicule?

Thanks in advance. This was about generators and availability of parts, and thinking of solutions to these "Supply Chain" issues we live with in the Post Covid world.

My experience, now after 36 months, is that 320 Watts of solar is more than enough to avoid ever needing to plug in. My boat stays in a shelter over the winter, so no Solar there, but once liberated (for 6 months) I plug in when planning on staying at the dock and needing hot water. Otherwise, I don't plug in.

My 12v fridge and freezer are the big power consumers, but the freezer is unused (so no draw) in the shoulder seasons, and in summer, there is an excess of sunshine to my needs.

My cruising is usually between the Gulf islands and Desolation Sound. In the Broughtons or further up the Central Coast, rain would cut that availability of sun, but would also reduce the demand for wattage for those two consumers.

In your shoes, I might try the Solar solution first, especially if you have available space to go bigger.

 

[Snapdragon III]

Because of delays and extreme costs of new generators I am going to try something new, something I have not heard or read about others doing (aside from sailboats).

My old 7.5kW Onan still runs, but it is rough and looks horrible. I spent many days last year just getting it to run. It shakes and rattles, has been neglected for some time, and is located under the port side bench seat in the aft cockpit. Since there is already routing/plumbing for fuel, and water for exhaust there. I think I will replace that big 3 cylinder model with a 1 cylinder new Kubota diesel engine configured to run one or two 12 volt alternators.

My thinking is this:

I have a decent Interstate 6V bank qty 6 in the midship area (20-22 feet run of cable)
I have two 8D start batteries
Both are set up on selector switch with inverter/charger
One alternator on Port FL 120 charges House Bank
One alternator on Starboard engine charges starting bank
There is one Group 31 on the upper boat deck for hoist and it has a solar panel and is isolated from the rest, as a backup, just in case.

I want to remove the Onan and have it rebuild/cleaned/painted (for sale or future use)
I want this smaller 1 cylinder (currently with one alternator) to have two, one set up for the 2-8D flooded batteries, another setup for the 6 golfcart batteries, as they have different charging profiles. I hope this will allow us to use the quieter, more economical 1 cylinder to charge 12v directly and possibly just use when new solar panels cannot quite keep up with power needs.

My thoughts are that 10-15% is lost in efficiency to generate 120v and then charge via inverter/charger the 12v and 6v batteries. Then there is a loss again converting that stored power to 120v. We do not have air conditioners, (not really needed in PNW) but will definitely need them if we ever take the boat back to the Sea of Cortez where we live...Then we MAY need to reinstall the Onan 7.5kW.

But while in PNW, I think this quiter, smaller approach to just keeping batteries happy when on the hook or cruising short days for up to a week away from shore power ought to work on an electricity thrifty vessel. I think with adding two or four solar panels we will be good to go and if we are lucky, we can only run that 12v generator for a couple hours a day when it is cloudy.

Thoughts?

Suggestions?

Ridicule?

Thanks in advance. This was about generators and availability of parts, and thinking of solutions to these "Supply Chain" issues we live with in the Post Covid world.

My boat has almost exactly the system you are thinking about. I think it uses a 6, or 7 hp Kabota engine. It runs a 150amp alternator, that I had to tune down to about 105 amps for things to work right, and also runs an engine driven water maker. Only one or the other can run at once. The system was built by a company that I think was a one man operation out of a garage situation. I talked to the owner and he is in his 80's and still has some parts inventory he will send out to people, but is not selling new systems. The system didn't really work safely when I got it due to a few installation mistakes, the alternator regulator being set up wrong, and the wet exhaust being rusted in half, etc. I think I finally have all the problems with it worked out, and it seems to be running smoothly now. If you build your own system make sure you have an audible exhaust gas over temperature alarm. Mine didn't originally, and tried to burn my boat down due to an electric raw water feed pump that stopped working after several hours due to poorly designed wiring.

 

[jbinbi]

From what I read yesterday, LA port congestion is down about thirty percent, so there is some easing. Also read where lumber prices are close to pre pandemic. Finally, some retailers are saying they are now getting over inventoried. Part of this is that they ordered more based on what they thought would be continued high demand that is slowing down.

Once everyone has a new, or maybe new to them, car, boat, rv, refrigerator, tv, laptop, peleton, etc, demand will drop.

Add in that the fed purposely pumped in lots of dollars to keep the economy from cratering, and this is wearing off, and you get hopefully start getting back to normal.

As an engineer, I look at this as an underdamped system. The input was a sharp blow, impulse in engineering, and the output will ‘ring’, that is oscillate between overshooting and undershooting the desired response. A decaying sine wave.

If the do it right, we get a soft landing. Do it wrong, we get a hard recession.

One big issue with the JIT manufacturing is that if you need 100 parts, and you are missing you, you can’t sell 99% . You sell 0%.

 

[Benthic2]

... This will not change until business and industry profits suffer enough such that they find it more profitable to change their processes.

I was thinking it was the incessant drive for profits that created this situation. Because investors demand increases every quarter everything is focused on short term gains. "If we keep our warehouse at 50% our financials look better"....what if we keep it at 25% ???

Investors are demanding every possible penny they can, and thanks to the internet, consumers are demanding the lowest possible price.....The merchant is caught in the middle and has no wiggle room for anything.

I think consumers used to be more loyal to merchants than they are today. They look at products and try them on in a brick and mortar, and then go order it online because they can get it for a buck cheaper......and even if you patronized "store A" for 15 years, if "Store B" is a fraction cheaper people go there now.

I feel really bad for a small business that needs to sell 3 or 4 outboards per week to cover his fixed costs. Even if he's done everything right by giving good service, building a great reputation, sponsored the local Little League team.....if he can't sell those outboards he is going to lose his business and his ability to support his family.

 

[BandB]

One big issue with the JIT manufacturing is that if you need 100 parts, and you are missing you, you can’t sell 99% . You sell 0%.

100% on target and until businesses figured out that the loss of business was more damaging than being over inventoried, there was no hope.

 

[BandB]

I was thinking it was the incessant drive for profits that created this situation. Because investors demand increases every quarter everything is focused on short term gains. "If we keep our warehouse at 50% our financials look better"....what if we keep it at 25% ???

Looking good, especially new CEO's trying to look good, drives a lot. Easy to explain that we cut back overhead by $10 million, or reduced inventory by $30 million. A lot more difficult to explain we increased inventory and staffing to grow the business over the long term.

I think consumers used to be more loyal to merchants than they are today. They look at products and try them on in a brick and mortar, and then go order it online because they can get it for a buck cheaper......and even if you patronized "store A" for 15 years, if "Store B" is a fraction cheaper people go there now.

Not really a change in my lifetime. It was Kmart and Sears, then Walmart, then Amazon. Big box stores started before Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, Target or Best Buy. They just replaced the first generation and did it better. At one time the consumer didn't have many choices, but from the first day they did, they showed price was key and they loved mega stores. Loyalty was fleeting and only kept customers when it was based on great service. Unfortunately, trying to compete on price, an impossibility for most, the first thing stores did was reduce service. If West Marine offered great service, they'd still be successful. They don't, so easy to go elsewhere.

 

[jbinbi]

100% on target and until businesses figured out that the loss of business was more damaging than being over inventoried, there was no hope.

I have manufactured many electronic products over my career. Almost all follow the 80/20 rule when it comes to their COGS. Usually there is a high priced component; a sensor, CPU, Gate array, etc, with a bunch of what we called 'jelly beans', parts that cost very little.

I have seen products held up from being completed for lack of resistor/capacitors. These items are fractions of a cent.

I can understand any company, large or small, not wanting to stock too many extra high priced components, but to not ship product because of pennies?! It is like the company that is worried about people stealing pens. If you are worried about pens affecting your bottom line, you have much bigger problems than the loss of pens!

To get back on topic, I don't know specifically about this generator, but I do know that many products are delayed right now not because of shipping but rather that China locked down and many parts from their have been slowed. If the shipping has been eased as I read, I think if China comes out of lockdown, hopefully by the fall inventories have improved a bit. Unfortunately, not in time for the boating season in the Northern US/Canada, but still, a good sign. I was looking for RE for the past 18 months and have about 20 zillow emails a day. Last year had half as much, but more importantly, this year I am getting ones that are having the price reduced. Sales are slowing, prices might have peaked. What the Fed is doing is working. At least I think it is. Just my 2c.

 

[OldDan1943]

You cant sell what you do not have.