Fuel

[rslifkin]

I don't know why anyone would hesitate to fill up asap as the trend is only higher from here. Prices are rising quickly week by week and will likely worsen as the demand increases during the summer.

Agreed, although with how much and how quickly prices have risen right before peak season, I'm curious how many people cancel summer plans, etc. I'm thinking demand may not come up nearly as much as typical.

At this point our plans are pretty much up in the air. We'll see what fuel prices do through the summer and go from there on what's reasonable.

 

[mvweebles]

What happened to all the people burning 2gph @ 8kts, and fuel was their cheapest expense, and SD the same economy as FD?

 

[sunchaser]

In 2021 we covered about 2800 miles between AK, BC and WA. This year, if desired, we can easily decrease travel in AK and WA by considerable mileage and fuel up in the cheaper locations. Thus 2022 fuel bill will be similar to 2021. For us, moorage costs far exceed fuel as does maintenance.

 

[Roughnit]

What happened to all the people burning 2gph @ 8kts, and fuel was their cheapest expense, and SD the same economy as FD?

We’ll we are in the the 2gph at 8kts SD camp and at $6.00 per gallon I’d just be paying my boat and boat house insurance if we cruise more than 1000 miles this summer (which we probably will). Therefore fuel may not be my cheapest expense this year.

 

[SteveK]

What happened to all the people burning 2gph @ 8kts, and fuel was their cheapest expense, and SD the same economy as FD?

Not sure what you are asking. Fuel is still the cheapest expense. Have you seen the price of beef?

 

[CharlieO.]

What happened to all the people burning 2gph @ 8kts, and fuel was their cheapest expense, and SD the same economy as FD?

We will eat less quality I guess and not visit the restaurants on our travels.

 

[O C Diver]

What happened to all the people burning 2gph @ 8kts, and fuel was their cheapest expense, and SD the same economy as FD?

I'm a member of the 4 MPG club (at 6.5 knots) with a SD hull. Should pass the 2K mile mark for this year on Friday with another 4K to 5K to go before December. While fuel is not my cheapest expense, I doubt it will surpass 25% of my annual boating budget.

Ted

 

[rslifkin]

In our case, fuel isn't the biggest expense (I don't think we've ever spent more than the summer dockage bill on fuel, let alone the rest of the expenses). But it's still a significant chunk of the pie. And more importantly, it's one of the most variable costs and also one of the only ones that we can significantly control based on usage.


Unfortunately we only get about 1.3 nmpg at 6.5 kts. But the fault lies squarely on the engines, not the hull. The same hull with diesels would be good for 3 nmpg at the same speed.

 

[mvweebles]

The big "ouch" is the expense comes in one big chunk when you take-om 400 gallons. You really have to take the long view of the expense.

I'm in Ensenada right now and at some point I'll put on about 400 gallons via barrels from a Pemex station and pay around $4.35/gal depending on exchange rate. Around $1750 USD which will definitely cause a heart palpitation. Our cruise plans are still in flux, but if we do the Baja Ha Ha in October, our next fuel will be La Paz almost 1000 nms south where we'll put on around 200 gallons and change oils.

Peter

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Not sure what you are asking. Fuel is still the cheapest expense.

Not for me. I don't stay that much in marinas. We prefer to anchor. Fuel is my most expensive item.

 

[Hippocampus]

Last fill was a fuel truck.we and one other boat emptied it. Under $4. This time in Deltaville Boatyard. They have Valtec which I like. Already fairly high volume fuel dock which I like. So given there’s no way to get a fuel truck near enough to the boat will fill with the yard at whatever cost. Need 300-400g have about 275g on board. Have been able to confirm if either markings on sight gauges nor mechanical gauges are truly accurate with this new to me boat. Want 600g as leaving Va to RI on Saturday.
Concern is second fill. This year was hoping to be in near constant motion. Figuring 2400g before Dec 31. Very much want to avoid another New England winter. Last was the first one for a decade. Would like it to be the last one ever. Think there will be more pressure for dry storage in warm places for hurricane season storage and fewer people snowbirding due to fuel costs.

 

[jbinbi]

I am wondering if anyone has the figures on how much oil was used say in 2019 prior to the pandemic when the economy was going great guns vs. now.

My gut tells me we are not using as much, yet crude is up significantly. Or even if it is the same. Russia is only 10%. I know the pump price is related to how much is refined, gas,nat gas, diesel, etc., but all still start w the price of crude.

I would be shocked if the oil companies don’t post great numbers for q2. OPEC as well. We need to be more energy independent. That in my mind is a combination of different sources. Also agree w mining for both rare and regular elements in our country or friendly neighbor countries, but going OT w that.

 

[SteveK]

Not for me. I don't stay that much in marinas. We prefer to anchor. Fuel is my most expensive item.

Tom, you are the poster boy for a lead foot boater followed by a 5 foot stern wave. Ease up a bit. Burn less.
Mind you, you moor at your own dock so you save moorage, anchor out, save moorage, smoke cubans, drink scotch catch your own feed.

I guess fuel is the most expense for one item.

 

[dannc]

...
My gut tells me we are not using as much, yet crude is up significantly. Or even if it is the same. Russia is only 10%. I know the pump price is related to how much is refined, gas,nat gas, diesel, etc., but all still start w the price of crude.

I would be shocked if the oil companies don’t post great numbers for q2. OPEC as well. We need to be more energy independent. That in my mind is a combination of different sources. Also agree w mining for both rare and regular elements in our country or friendly neighbor countries, but going OT w that.

It does not take much of a shortage of a required commodity to drive up prices. Russia supplies around 14% of the worlds oil, so sorta taking that off the market hurts. Russia also supplies 10% of the of Europe's diesel. Course, the European's are still buying Russian energy because they have made themselves dependent on Putin's energy.

Energy prices were going up in Europe in the last quarter or two in 2021. This was because wind and solar was not producing the needed energy and EU countries had to burn natural gas to provide power. The spike in the cost of natural gas has cost major issues in the EU and Putin's War has just made it worse. It is not going to get better either as the EU weans itself off of Putin's energy since there simply is no quick fix to their energy dependency.

The price of natural gas affects the price of fertilizer which in turn hits food prices. I just read that fertilizer prices were up 140-150% in either Ireland or the UK. Not sure if that was just this year or last 12-18 months.

The surprise to me regarding natural gas prices and food supply was that in the UK, CO2 is used to process live stock. No CO2 and no meat. In the UK, there are only two plants that produce fertilizer. These same two plants also produce CO2. Last year, or maybe early this year, the plants shutdown because of the high price of natural gas. The government had to step in to subsidize their operations because the food supply was about to shutdown due to lack of CO2 and fertilizer.

Oil producing companies are going to make a lot of money since the price of energy has gone up so much. Companies like Exxon will likely make more profit but their margin may not go up that much. I looked them up years ago, and at the time, Exxon was earning something like 5%. They had huge revenue, so a little bit of profit times a huge revenue is lots of money. It will Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and even Russia that will make huge sums.

Later,
Dan

 

[Hippocampus]

Congruent to,my thinking. It’s a full decade or more between any intervention and impact. Be it having trucks and cars age out to make the fleet running as e vehicles or having enough wind/solar to charge them or having the grid to carry the juice. On the other side at least a decade to develop more crude sources or have refining capacity. Same for NG. So getting excited about what our or other governments are doing or not doing today is unlikely to have any significant near term impact. Yes Europe is funding the Ukrainian war. Yes depending upon a totalitarian state for a key resource be it Russia or the Saudis or anyone is foolish geopolitically. Yes renewal ables are the way out. But I’m planning on $8 diesel in the near future and it maybe persistent but at elevated prices for some time to come.
People forget Ukraine is Europe’s Midwest.their source for wheat, soy, feed and veggies. Largest source for sunflower oil as well. The farms are gone. No fuel to operate farm equipment even if the risk of bombardment while in your tractor didn’t exist. No way to get farm product to international markets. That’s why the Ukrainian southern coast is so important. Stuff will rot in the fields.
We’re in for a snotty voyage. Markets are tanking. Inflation is just a downstream effect of disturbances in world markets (oil, food, natural gas etc.). It was said when the US sneezes the rest of the world catches colds. We are major wheat, corn and animal feed exporters. Between being dependent upon factory farming which is oil and petrochemical dependent and transportation issues Putin has really shown the downside of globalism. Even as exporters I expect hunger in America to increase. I think it doesn’t matter which party is in power at the moment. The forces of this dynamic are international and no one government acting alone is going to change that sorry state of affairs. Issue is how to minimize this risk in the future.

 

[FWT]

"It’s a full decade or more between any intervention and impact. Be it having trucks and cars age out to make the fleet running as e vehicles or having enough wind/solar to charge them or having the grid to carry the juice."

And then you have conversion problems. I have read that among the many problems CA has made for itself in the supply chain logjam is a mandate to electric trucks some 5 or 10 years out. Of course none exist today. And no one wants to buy a new truck whose normal life extends past the electric mandate date. So old trucks not being replaced. Hey I read it on the internet so it must be true.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Tom, you are the poster boy for a lead foot boater followed by a 5 foot stern wave. Ease up a bit. Burn less.

Mind you, you moor at your own dock so you save moorage, anchor out, save moorage, smoke cubans, drink scotch catch your own feed.



I guess fuel is the most expense for one item.

LOL Now that is funny. Some of it true. ASD has one hell of a wake.

 

[High Wire]

My last trawler fillup was in the beginning of April at $4.29. Checking out a fuel dock in Wildwood, NJ last week it was $6.75. It's more but not going to change our cruising habits.

 

[Hippocampus]

$6.11 for valtec diesel at Deltaville boatyard today. Took 376 g. Wanted to be totally filled. Will use it all getting to NEB in RI. Fill refill asap there as think it’s only going to be more expensive. Instead of our prior plans to regionally cruise (Maine, Canada, Hudson Chesapeake) think we’ll cruise locally until time to end south to the Bahamas.can’t complain as others are,struggling to pay for necessities.

 

[rslifkin]

At this point, I think we'll be cutting our travel plans back a bit for the summer (in terms of distance, not necessarily time). We'll also may end up adjusting where we go based on fuel cost in various areas.



Fortunately, there are still plenty of places fairly close that we haven't been yet, so no huge loss. Just another year of taking the list of possible trips, dumping it in a jar and shaking up the order.

 

[slowgoesit]

$6.11 for valtec diesel at Deltaville boatyard today. Took 376 g. Wanted to be totally filled. Will use it all getting to NEB in RI. Fill refill asap there as think it’s only going to be more expensive. Instead of our prior plans to regionally cruise (Maine, Canada, Hudson Chesapeake) think we’ll cruise locally until time to end south to the Bahamas.can’t complain as others are,struggling to pay for necessities.

I envy you for being able to completely fill up with only 376 gallons! We currently have 525 gallons on board. To fill up completely would take another 1575 gallons. We're going to put in about 1000 gallons later this week so we can go to Alaska and back without worrying about refueling. Ouch . . . .
Yes it's expensive, but we aren't going to NOT cruise just because of the cost of diesel.

 

[rslifkin]

I envy you for being able to completely fill up with only 376 gallons! We currently have 525 gallons on board. To fill up completely would take another 1575 gallons. We're going to put in about 1000 gallons later this week so we can go to Alaska and back without worrying about refueling. Ouch . . . .
Yes it's expensive, but we aren't going to NOT cruise just because of the cost of diesel.

Sometimes I wish I could carry that much... Would be nice to just load up when we see an area when cheap fuel. Not as much of an option with only 420 gallons of capacity though.

 

[SteveK]

I envy you for being able to completely fill up with only 376 gallons! We currently have 525 gallons on board. To fill up completely would take another 1575 gallons. We're going to put in about 1000 gallons later this week so we can go to Alaska and back without worrying about refueling. Ouch . . . .
Yes it's expensive, but we aren't going to NOT cruise just because of the cost of diesel.

Fill up where? others have suggested the US$ goes further in Canada, and what about fuel in AK, I thought that was lower than WA.

 

[mvweebles]

Sometimes I wish I could carry that much... Would be nice to just load up when we see an area when cheap fuel. Not as much of an option with only 420 gallons of capacity though.

When I replaced my tanks, I really wanted to ensure I maintained at least 1500nm range. Yes, I hope to use that range, but also it provides flexibility and freedom about refueling.

BTW - pretty sure I have +2000nm range. I really don't know what my tankage is yet. Will know in a couple months when I fill-up. Suspect it's in the 425-450 gallon range, but not sure.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Our tanks take 600g. We came here at 10.2 kts and burned a bit over 1 1/2 fill ups. Want to go back on one fill up which should be doable at 7kts. and allow a reserve. Will refill immediately thinking prices are only to go up further as New England is a seasonal area for boating.
Concern is I think people are going to anticipate the possibility of shortages and lack of availability. Which will cause them to top off whenever they can. That will increase the probability of shortages and decreased availability.

 

[rslifkin]

When I replaced my tanks, I really wanted to ensure I maintained at least 1500nm range. Yes, I hope to use that range, but also it provides flexibility and freedom about refueling.

BTW - pretty sure I have +2000nm range. I really don't know what my tankage is yet. Will know in a couple months when I fill-up. Suspect it's in the 425-450 gallon range, but not sure.

Peter

400+ gallons goes a lot further in a boat that burns as little fuel as yours! I think each of my engines probably burns as much at idle as your boat does at 6.5 kts... If a nice pair of diesels fell from the sky, my 420 gallons would seem a whole lot bigger I think. And if fuel prices keep climbing, a repower might almost start to look cost effective.

 

[OldDan1943]

On my AT34, Cummins 380, I carry 400 gal diesel. On the sea trials 'empty boat', according to the factory results, 1000 rpm=6knts, burn rate 1 gph
1200 rpm = 7knts, 1.4gph
Now if you want, please feel free to do the math. I just know, it is a long distance.
In theory, I should have enough fuel to travel at least 14+ days between refueling. At the moment I have neither enough food nor toilet paper (for 2 people) onboard to travel that many days.
Of course if going north and I jump into the Gulf Stream, my distance will increase significantly.
The factory does not make any allowances for a full fuel tank or a full water tank. I have never heard of anyone traveling any distance on the 'empty boat.'
Of course, no allowances were made for weather, tide, current, waves etc.
This last yard visit I asked them to weigh the boat, as loaded. Just my luck, that part of the lift was broken.

 

[AlanT]

I generally cruise at around 10kts, burning 20 gallons an hour with twin DD 8V92s. Last week on an hour's run with no hurry to be anywhere I decided to see how slow I would have to go to halve my fuel burn (thinking that the price has roughly doubled). I was astonished to find that 10 GPH correlated to 8kts. I am quite happy at 8kts most of the time, so that is my planned adjustment for general tootling around. Our big annual run is about 200 NM each way and for that I will suck it up (literally!) at a higher speed/fuel burn.

 

[slowgoesit]

Fill up where? others have suggested the US$ goes further in Canada, and what about fuel in AK, I thought that was lower than WA.

Port Orchard, WA Marina was $5.46 usd yesterday. Brownsville, $5.49. Anacortes, $5.47, but you had to buy >750 gallons. Not sure about Seattle area. Sitka, AK was the cheapest I saw in Alaska from a brief search. I think around $5.32.

We'll probably tank here in Port Orchard. Might be cheaper when we get to AK. Might not, but we'd also like to get a feel for the boat with close to full tanks, as we've not had more than 800 gallons on board since we purchased.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

It is reported Friday Hbr WA raised their diesel to $6.78 yesterday.