Fresh Water Boat Premium?

[boatpoker]

I respect your opinion, and of course I am not a professional surveyor.

My thoughts are that if a boat is designed for ocean use it is reasonable that using it in the ocean would not cause significant corrosion damage.

My boat for example is 15 years old and has been in salt water it’s entire life. Looking at the engine room the seacocks do not look new, but they do not look corroded either. Looking at the rest of the metalwork on the boat I do not see damage from corrosion. If I saw corrosion related damage that would be a problem, as to me a boat designed for ocean use will not be damaged by merely being in salt water, the place it was designed to be.

Virtually every man made thing on the planet corrodes. It's a matter of degree.

 

[psneeld]

I would also say that Northern versus Southern plays a part.

Heck even in NJ, many boats only get used a little for about 3 months, sit a little then get hauled, washed and waxed, PMed, winterized and shrink-wrapped for 7 months.

It's Southern twin sits in warm salt water and much harsher sun for 12 months and gets used way more.

Even that comparison is obvious a lot of the time, but isn't a hard and fast rule.

Liveaboard versus non-luveaboard can vary widely or flip-flop too.

 

[boatpoker]

corrosion

Yes, many manufacturers offer freshwater & saltwater models. Yes, you're not going to find a "freshwater" trawler or large cruiser, but in smaller boats, plenty of boats sold for freshwater use. Many sub-30ft models are sold in freshwater base trim with saltwater option available at premium. The saltwater trim usually includes some optional extras along with closed loop cooling. Also, there are some aluminum boats built which aren't meant for saltwater as a result of construction technique and grade of alloy used.

I had assumed we were talking about the type of boats common to this forum, not 18' Bayliner runabouts on inland lakes.

When it comes to older used boats, many freshwater boats just don't have the same level of systems installation or materials used are inferior because someone cut corners on a repair or upgrade based on the use-case. Additionally, freshwater boats, by the numbers, are more likely to suffer from rot issues.

Are you suggesting their are systems built for fresh and salt water on the market .... stainless steel, electrical conductors, radars, autopilots, starter motors, alternators ? Please specify. Rot ? I can only assume you are talking about core materials and mean wood decay. By my numbers, core decay is just as prevalent in fresh or salt water as indicated on the many threads on that issue in this forum.

I don't know what region you are from, or what type of boats you are surveying, but what you are saying is directly at odds with what I have observed.

My observations are based on almost 5,000 surveys, hundreds of corrosion analysis' (certified Marine Corrosion Analyst) and hundreds of vessel deliveries between Duluth Minnesota and Antigua.Most of my surveys have been performed in the Great Lakes but hundreds in southern salt water too. There are thousands of ex-salt water boats in the GL that people bought cheap down south.

Saltltwater vs freshwater just isn't a very relevant indicator.

Salt water corrosion is a simple fact of science and evidenced by the photos in the link in my earlier post and the many threads on this forum regarding steel fuel tank replacements, a thing that is unheard of in fresh water


for me, stabilizers is a must. This is way more relevant thing to look for in the listing.

"For you" is the operative phrase. I'm not sure your preferred equipment list is relevant to the topic. The vast majority of the vessels on this forum are not equipped with stabilizers although I admit they are wonderful

.

Neither of our opinions really matter, the market matters and has spoken. soldboats.com clearly shows significantly higher prices for fresh water boats.

I find that when people become defensive about a particular issue, a thread can become unpleasant so I will not be responding again.

 

[JLD]

Take a look at my Salt Water Corrosion photo album. You won't see anything like this on a fresh water boat ... Your call.

Respectfully, while I understand the chemistry with salt added to the water, are these rust issues mostly caused by water intrusion or is it specifically salt water intrusion?

As someone trying to learn more, I also understand that surface metal will rust faster with salt air, but, what other systems would be affected by salt air or salt water?

I have read about several manufacturers having tank issues, but my understanding was (aside from very old tanks) that by-and-large this issues were due to thin metal, bad welds, or the accumulation of standing water under the tanks.


Jim

 

[O C Diver]

I am in the camp of not wasting time on perceived value of fresh water use. Each boat is unique. Each seller's circumstances effects what price he will hold out for. Each market has a determination of price based on per capita income and popularity of a given model. For the record, most boats are sold locally, not moved more than 300 miles to a new location. The rarity of a particular model in the Great Lakes may make it more desirable. The oddity of a vessel's perceived use and where it's located, may depress its value.

I more value maintenance logs, cleaning, waxing, and tedious attention to maintenance. Imo, freshwater kept, one owner, never used offshore, and the like, remind me of the used car ad: Local one owner, little old lady who only used it to drive to church on Sundays. If you need to add all the irrelevant descriptions, you probably have something to hide.

Ted

 

[sunchaser]

For years we had trailer boats, using them in salt and fresh water.. One thing I am 100.00% sure of, the boat trailer, tow hitch, axles, electrics and brakes better be set up for salt water use or it will wither away in no time if used in salt water launches. The Sea Rays and Hourstons we had could care less, just hosed them off and flushed the engines with fresh water after salt water use.

A few years ago when boat shopping, I spent time in Portland area. A Columbia River fresh water boat was my goal, but not enough inventory as compared to the Bay Area and Seattle. Chose neither, got a good deal on a new boat, here we are today with a salt water boat. It is where we cruise and where the next owners will boat too.

 

[Wayfarer]

Steel ships on the ocean typically last about 30-35 years before they’re worn out. On the Great Lakes, the average age of the current fleet is about 45, and many have decades of service left in them. Ships on the lakes generally go through many times more load and unload stress cycles than their ocean counterparts as well. The first ship I sailed on was 78 years old. She was pretty tired, but went down hill quickly when we started hauling cargoes of salt in her.

 

[psneeld]

Steel ships and small vessels aren't constructed or operated in even remote similarity.

I agree salt is very corrosive to many metals, that's why many metals, even metal at all is reduced as much as practical in recreational boats so they don't suffer the same fates.

Reasonable maintenance reduces the effects if corrosion...for many boats I submit the sun is worse than salt.

Sun destruction of a $15K sunbrella enclosure and a $50K repainting or re gel coating job buys a boatload of metal fittings.

 

[Reo Baird]

Neither of our opinions really matter, the market matters and has spoken. soldboats.com clearly shows significantly higher prices for fresh water boats.

This is the entire point at question though. Given they command a premium, is the premium worth paying?

On your question regarding saltwater vs freshwater systems. Yes, many freshwater boats end up with repairs/upgrades using freshwater materials. Examples:

- Painted mild steel instead of aluminum or stainless or wrong alloy (ie 3003 instead of 5052 for aluminum)
- Standard copper wire rather than marine grade
- Non-marine accessories (ie household or automotive devices like antennas, electronic devices, lighting, etc.) that will fall apart in salt water environment
- Corrosion control tuned for fresh water (magnesium anodes, reduced # anodes, etc)

I have personally seen a number of freshwater boats with equipment that would degrade quickly in salt water. It is something you need to be aware of when viewing freshwater boats.

No debate about saltwater corrosion being "a thing", this much is obvious. However, in a properly built cruising vessel, I just don't believe it's a significant issue on a typical used boat in good condition within typical age range. And, if it is an issue (such as in the photos you shared), it is obvious and caught before purchase. There are much bigger fish to fry when looking at purchasing a boat than searching for a freshwater-only boat.

For me, here's what I think about when viewing vessels:

- Value. As listed, do I believe this is a good buy? I personally prefer to buy deals where I can exit without large loss if necessary. Boat listings swing wildly in value and it pays to be patient and find a good buy.
- Features. Write down a list of desired high-ticket features. Stabilizers? heat? AC? New electronics? watermaker? paying an extra 10k for 80k stabilizers is good value if you're set on having them.
- Powerplant. How old is the engine? Hours? Reviews on this model?
- Condition. Corrosion issues? Paint/gelcoat? Interior? Woodwork? Level of wear on each piece of equipment?

 

[Bacchus]

This is the entire point at question though. Given they command a premium, is the premium worth paying?
/QUOTE]

So it seems the answer is YES and NO
Clearly two camps w different opinions
FW fans willing to consider paying a premium in the right situation
The SW fans unwilling to assign any premium only to FW use

 

[psneeld]

Anyone hear really think most boaters really have a clue???

.....as often as the experienced boaters and even some surveyors don't think many surveyors have a clue?????