Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-08-2020, 08:46 PM   #1
Member
 
City: Loganville, GA
Vessel Name: TBD
Vessel Model: TBD
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 8
"Forgot" to re-set hour meter after rebuild?

Looking at a 60+ footer that's for sale. She has twin 12-71TDs. The hour-meters show over 5000 hours, which as I understand it puts the engines well past major overhaul time. The broker claims that she had both engines overhauled about 3 years ago, to the tune of over $40k. But somehow they "neglected" to reset the hour meters. Does his explanation make any sense? I have my doubts. What do you engine Gurus think?
__________________
Advertisement

Bobby Lex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2020, 08:50 PM   #2
Guru
 
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft Catalina 381
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 2,348
Personally I wouldn't expect the meters reset, I'd just expect documentation of how many hours they had at overhaul so I'd know how many it's been since.
__________________

rslifkin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2020, 08:59 PM   #3
Guru
 
oscar's Avatar
 
City: Bethlehem, PA
Vessel Name: Lady Kay V
Vessel Model: 1978 Hatteras 53MY
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 899
On mine I was told one meter was replaced, the other was not. So I have original and rebuild hours. Kinda neat. The paperwork more than supports all this.
__________________
Experience is a cruel teacher.... first it gives the test. Then it gives the lesson.
oscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2020, 09:05 PM   #4
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 13,021
IMO, the logs should show actual hours and the time of significant maintenance performed...whatever that means to you.

In aviation, records reqts are much more precise.
__________________
My boat is my ark. It's my mobile treehouse and my floating fishing cabin. It's my retreat and my respite. Everyday I thank God I have a boat! -Al

@DeltaBridges - 25 Delta Bridges in 25 Days
FlyWright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2020, 09:10 PM   #5
Guru
 
menzies's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville
Vessel Name: SONAS
Vessel Model: Grand Alaskan 53
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 7,115
Hang on. Are these engines "well past their major overhaul" at 5000 hours?

Seems awfully low.
menzies is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2020, 09:11 PM   #6
Guru
 
Simi 60's Avatar
 
City: Queensland
Vessel Model: Milkraft 60 converted timber trawler
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 2,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Lex View Post
Looking at a 60+ footer that's for sale. She has twin 12-71TDs. The hour-meters show over 5000 hours, which as I understand it puts the engines well past major overhaul time.
If that's correct that's pretty poor.

What HP?
Many different variants, higher HP ones that are driven hard that 5000 could be correct.

Well maintained low HP models should last considerably longer.
Simi 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2020, 09:18 PM   #7
Technical Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,908
Owner should produce invoices showing work done, by whom, and dates. From dates, can usually tell if number of hours make sense.

If they can not produce that paperwork, got to assume that they were not rebuilt.

12-71 can go well over 5000hrs if run easy. High output, run hard, maybe 2500.
Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2020, 09:23 PM   #8
Guru
 
boathealer's Avatar
 
City: Out Cruisin'
Vessel Name: SCOUT
Vessel Model: Great Harbour N37
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,078
I have 4600hrs each on a pair of mini Yanmars that are still purring like kittens with only regular maintenance items.
__________________
--
Ray
m/v SCOUT Web Site
m/v SCOUT Projects Page
boathealer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2020, 09:27 PM   #9
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 11,493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
Owner should produce invoices showing work done, by whom, and dates. From dates, can usually tell if number of hours make sense.

If they can not produce that paperwork, got to assume that they were not rebuilt.

12-71 can go well over 5000hrs if run easy. High output, run hard, maybe 2500.
Yes, sight the bills.
Not even sure you can "wind back" the hours/Hobbs meters. Rebuild is 3 years ago, engines were failing somewhere short of 5000. But where?
Remember, 5000 hours is on everything, not just engines.
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2020, 09:34 PM   #10
Guru
 
tiltrider1's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: AZZURRA
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 54
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 2,124
I’m speculating due to a lack of data. I’m going to assume a Hatteras 60’ sport fisher which could easily wear out a pair of dd12-71’s in 5,000 hours., however I would be suspicious of a complete overhaul for just $40,000. So now I’m speculating that we are talking about a 60’ semi-planning hull that after 5,000 hours of running hard got hot and did some damage. Several liners and rods were replaced and the bill came to $40,000. Major repair but not exactly a full rebuild.

Like Ski, I would like to see the engine repair paper work.
tiltrider1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2020, 10:02 PM   #11
Guru
 
Simi 60's Avatar
 
City: Queensland
Vessel Model: Milkraft 60 converted timber trawler
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 2,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiltrider1 View Post
Iím speculating due to a lack of data. Iím going to assume a Hatteras 60í sport fisher which could easily wear out a pair of dd12-71ís in 5,000 hours., however I would be suspicious of a complete overhaul for just $40,000. So now Iím speculating that we are talking about a 60í semi-planning hull that after 5,000 hours of running hard got hot and did some damage. Several liners and rods were replaced and the bill came to $40,000. Major repair but not exactly a full rebuild.

Like Ski, I would like to see the engine repair paper work.
Saw several of this type of thing online when looking
Always avoided due to engine size 650hp x 2
Never realised they were a "hand grenade" engine.

Glad we held out for a 350hp boat with an engine type that regularly get 30,000+ hours between in frame rebuilds.
Simi 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2020, 10:16 PM   #12
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 9,992
I would not be afraid of Detroits with 5000 hours that had not been run on the pins for that time. The problem is figuring out how they have been run...
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you arenít one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 03:45 AM   #13
Guru
 
Lepke's Avatar
 
City: Between Oregon and Alaska
Vessel Name: Charlie Harper
Vessel Model: Wheeler Shipyard 83'
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,073
The only way to know the condition of the engines is an engine survey by a REAL Detroit Diesel marine mechanic.
$40 thousand is cheap for rebuilding 2 12v71s. I've been running 12v71s since the mid 1960s, off an on. A twin turbo engine gets between 2000 and 10,000 hours between overhauls, depending on how hard they are run and how well maintained. A natural can go decades.
Owners don't always tell brokers the whole story and some brokers choose not to tell the whole story.
Lepke is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 04:28 AM   #14
Guru
 
High Wire's Avatar
 
City: Cape May, NJ and Englewood, FL
Vessel Name: Irish Lady
Vessel Model: Monk 36
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,555
You can’t “reset” Hobbs meters, you replace them with new and document that fact in the maintenance log.
__________________
Archie
Irish Lady
1984 Monk 36 Hull #46
Currently in Englewood Florida.
High Wire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 08:07 AM   #15
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,257
I'll pile on in agreeing that they need to produce comprehensive receipts, work done and itemized parts. Running and maintenance logs would tell a very important part of the tale. What horsepower are those engines? They can last for many many 1000's of hours if in the common 650HP range and run responsibly.

Absolutely get an experienced Detroit mechanic to do a complete survey. That will validate (or not) whatever is being represented. $40,000 would be in the normal price range to completely overhaul a ONE 12 cylinder Detroit. Pretty cheap price for getting an essentially brand new engine.

In the meantime, see if you can arrange to have them start the engines for you first thing in the morning when they are cold to the touch. How much smoke comes out the exhaust and for how long is pretty telling. Over on the Hatteras Owners Forum, there are a lot of knowledgeable owners of these engines, plus a sticky post by one called "30 second compression test".
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 08:45 AM   #16
Guru
 
Woodland Hills's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville
Vessel Name: Alzero
Vessel Model: Hatteras 63' CPMY
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,542
We have over 5k hrs on our 650hp 12-71s and they are still going strong. Two years ago all 24 cylinders were within specs for compression at time of purchase, they start as soon as the button is pushed with no smoking. After resealing the air box covers and replacing the front main seal on one they do not leak oil, however since we run at 1050rpm they will “slobber” a black mixture of soot and unburned fuel. This can be alleviated by coming up on plane once in a while and getting up to full temperature to burn it off. They will then make an amazing amount of smoke for a few minutes before clearing up.

Our hour meters are both inop so we now keep track of oil changes with the clocks on the flo-scans. These are nearly indestructible engines unless run at WOT for hours on end such as in a sportfisher. Remember: modern computer controlled engines need electricity to run, Detroit’s need electricity to shut down, I know which I prefer!
Woodland Hills is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 09:21 AM   #17
Senior Member
 
RonR's Avatar
 
City: Everett
Vessel Name: Boatless
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 383
Ask for paperwork to back it, one mans "rebuild" might be a set of gaskets and a paint job. Another might include an inframe, another might be a full removal of the block and machine work to everything. If they can not produce the paperwork I would question if it ever happened, as if your to drop 20-40k on something you keep the paperwork knowing its going to add value when its time to sell.

Now lets say the paperwork was in a car that was stolen or some other story. Find a 2-stroke guy and pay for the full engine survey. Or if the boat is in good shape and your willing to gamble.... I would not be afraid of a 12V with 5k on the clock if it did not smoke a ton when fired up, did not over heat, looked neat, and worked well under full load.
RonR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 10:30 AM   #18
Guru
 
koliver's Avatar
 
City: Saltspring Island
Vessel Name: Retreat
Vessel Model: C&L 44
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,671
What kind of hour meters? I have Hobbs, permanently reading ~1500 hours. That is the no of hours between buying the boat and re-powering. On buying the boat one tach hour meter read ~3000, the other, way less, but not functional, so I added the Hobbs pair, external to the tachs.
I also have the hour meters in the tachometers that came with the new engines (the old ones went out with the old engines). When I re-Powered, the new engines had ~1500 hours, close to the same on both. I didn't get replacement tachs for the flybridge right away, as I had to hunt for a pair of used to avoid the price of new. Those had far different readings, though both less than 1500. So now I have 6 hour meters. When I sell this boat, I doubt any broker will get the whole story, as I expect her/his eyes would glaze over long before the full explanation was done. Any purchaser relying on the broker will be confused, and will need to rely on the log book and an engine survey for an indication of the real age of the engines.
My log book details the true history of the engines, though I know that keeping close track of hours between major log entries is often overlooked in the heat of the purchasing moment.
__________________
Keith
koliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 10:49 AM   #19
Guru
 
rgano's Avatar
 
City: Southport north of Panama City
Vessel Name: FROLIC
Vessel Model: Mainship 30 Pilot II since 2015. GB-42 1986-2015. Former Unlimited Tonnage Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,523
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Lex View Post
Looking at a 60+ footer that's for sale. She has twin 12-71TDs. The hour-meters show over 5000 hours, which as I understand it puts the engines well past major overhaul time. The broker claims that she had both engines overhauled about 3 years ago, to the tune of over $40k. But somehow they "neglected" to reset the hour meters. Does his explanation make any sense? I have my doubts. What do you engine Gurus think?
The invoice from the rebuilder I might believe. Reset hour meters without the rebuild invoice I would NOT accept.
__________________
Rich Gano
FROLIC (2005 MainShip 30 Pilot II)
Panama City area
rgano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2020, 09:28 AM   #20
Guru
 
C lectric's Avatar
 
City: Gibsons, B.C.
Vessel Name: Island Pride
Vessel Model: xxxx
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,079
I,ll chime in too.
Different engine, single, smaller boat but on third meter,Hobbs. The meter changes are in the log book in BIG notes in the place, date, they were changed. Also on the notes section divider so easily seen.

Documentation of the rebuilds is needed, a must. There is a wide variation in opinions about what constitutes a "rebuild" and one person's rebuild is another's repair . Not the same.

A large part of the expense can be due to poor access meaning high labour charges to simply get engine access. That is NOT part of a rebuild itself so the $40k, although the job cost, does not necessarily mean the rebuild.

Get documentation. Get a known DD mechanic to look at the invoices and check the engines.
__________________

C lectric is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×